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Ombey Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.29 09:12:00 - [1] Sorry if this is the wrong forum, wasn't sure where else to post this. Am I correct in assuming that you can only utilise clone technology if you die in a pod? As in, it backs up your last memories and sends them just before you die. So if i die in a station (hypothetically speaking) while I am walking around, I wouldn't wake up in a clone? Or I would, but it would only have memories up to the last time I was in a pod? Thanks in advance! -- 2d EveMaps\|My blog
A Soporific Caldari Venom Pointe Industries	Posted - 2008.10.29 11:09:00 - [2] No. The human body is slightly modified for Pod Pilots, it's the hardware and software in the jack protruding from the back of the neck that keeps everything going. So long as that thing is active and there is somewhere for you to go then the medical clone and jump-clone systems work.
Ombey Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.29 11:17:00 - [3] Excellent, thanks for that answer :) I was hoping that wasn't the case, but I'll just modify the story I am writing accordingly -- 2d EveMaps\|My blog
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.10.29 12:57:00 - [4] Edited by: Myrhial Arkenath on 29/10/2008 13:00:36 * EA novel spoilers up ahead * In the novel, the broker dies by comitting suicide but awakens into another clone. He's the only one with access to the technology he uses, and due to the fact he uses other bodies than his own in the end the copy process ends up backfiring on him. I have heard of capsuleers claiming to get mind backups done at regular intervals so in case they die a clone can be reactivated with the last backup. Not sure how cannon this is, afaik it isn't in the PF other than the broker, and I am not sure if the mind in other body or mind backup is what the broker has exclusive access to. Diary of a pod pilot
Ombey Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.29 13:40:00 - [5] Interesting. I really wonder what pod pilots must be like if they effectively can't die. Bound to have an psychological effect on a person -- 2d EveMaps\|My blog
Arakidias Murky Inc. Power Of 3	Posted - 2008.10.29 15:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Ombey Interesting. I really wonder what pod pilots must be like if they effectively can't die. Bound to have an psychological effect on a person I think it results in a total disregard of the lives of others and the atomization of billions of isk worth of equipment..
muracumin	Posted - 2008.10.29 15:24:00 - [7] There are rumours floating around that a certain empire have been experimenting with non pod linked clone technology. My sources indicate they have been experimenting on inmates in a prison colony. I unexpectedly came across the diary of an inmate JK9171 or as I named him Jake. For obvious reasons i need to be very carefull in my investigations or else i will need the use of a clone myself. As it is I am sure they ar ** link broken *** Connection Terminated ****
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.10.29 20:42:00 - [8] One of the mission trees for the Caldari Navy features a point where a modified battlecruiser breaches the hull and kills a senior researcher, who is later re-animated. Similarly, the Jovians at the very least have access to non-capsule cloning technology, as does (apparently) the Broker. In theory, the only limits on the brain scan are that most versions of the neural scan equipment are quite bulky, and that the brain must be intact and fresh. In theory, that means that you can reanimate the recently deceased off a brain-scan from their corpse, but this carries with it the risk that the clone will remember dying - presumably, with psychological counselling the trauma resulting from that memory can be adressed, but it's still a problem. The reason capsuleers use pod scanners is because pod scanners are the only reliable system for performing a neural scan during combat. - Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2008.10.29 23:45:00 - [9] I'll just leave this here: http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/03-sep-01.asp
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.10.30 10:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai I'll just leave this here: http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/03-sep-01.asp Sounds similar to the Broker, a body clone with a different mind inside of it. Unless of course the eating with the wrong hand was done on purpose by the main character to help strengthen his false alibi. Diary of a pod pilot
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2008.10.30 14:50:00 - [11] Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai I'll just leave this here: http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/03-sep-01.asp Sounds similar to the Broker, a body clone with a different mind inside of it. Unless of course the eating with the wrong hand was done on purpose by the main character to help strengthen his false alibi. My point had nothing to do with the plot, but rather that a civilian has access to Jump Clones.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.10.30 18:53:00 - [12] Ah, missed that part! He's rather wealthy by non-capsuleer standards though. Diary of a pod pilot
Mithfindel Gallente Gariushi Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.30 20:19:00 - [13] The way I've understood it, the cloning tech is available to all with wallets thick enough. Even the conciousness transfer is something that can be done for anyone. The pod is an improvement for one thing: It is very easy to know when the mind transfer must be done - as long as the pod is fine, it will keep the pilot alive. Once the pod is breached, the pilot will die 100 % sure. So there's no risk that the system accidentally gets triggered and lobotomizes the captain. There's no risk the system doesn't get triggered and mind transfer fails. Naturally, the mind transfer can also done on a carefully prepared subject on an adequately equipped operating room. The way the pod pilots are unique is that they are genetically compatible with Jovian implants used to interface with the ship, including both capability to adapt to the rerouted neural system - both "becoming the ship" and "becoming yourself" after leaving the pod. Just about anyone might not be capable of controlling the ship, or might risk getting mindlocked (essentially a full body paralysis) after leaving the pod.
Ombey Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:15:00 - [14] Great, some nice replies here, many thanks -- 2d EveMaps\|My blog
Marine HK4861 Caldari Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.31 22:39:00 - [15] Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 31/10/2008 22:41:39 Originally by: Mithfindel Naturally, the mind transfer can also done on a carefully prepared subject on an adequately equipped operating room. Which is used for jump clones. From the pod tech scientific article, it implies that the brain burning procedure for the mind transfer is highly exothermic, thus when the pod breached, the brain is burnt (literally!) to give a perfect copy to send to the new medical clone. With a suitably controlled cryogenic system in place, the copying can be done slowly with careful monitoring to keep the temperature down, thus allowing the non-damaging transfer to a jump clone. Edit: Hmmm, I could have sworn that article said the process was highly exothermic, now it just says the snapshot is highly damaging...
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.02 05:23:00 - [16] It has always said damaging I think. Regardless, IIRC the cloning article and/or jovian wetgrave imply that cloning doesn't require a pod and that backups are possible. Cloning was also initially a separate tech from pods, the two have just been combined. -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Kenji Kimura	Posted - 2008.11.03 11:38:00 - [17] Originally by: Marine HK4861 Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 31/10/2008 22:41:39 Originally by: Mithfindel Naturally, the mind transfer can also done on a carefully prepared subject on an adequately equipped operating room. Which is used for jump clones. From the pod tech scientific article, it implies that the brain burning procedure for the mind transfer is highly exothermic, thus when the pod breached, the brain is burnt (literally!) to give a perfect copy to send to the new medical clone. With a suitably controlled cryogenic system in place, the copying can be done slowly with careful monitoring to keep the temperature down, thus allowing the non-damaging transfer to a jump clone. Edit: Hmmm, I could have sworn that article said the process was highly exothermic, now it just says the snapshot is highly damaging... Well, it's probably highly damaging BECAUSE it's highly exothermic... I don't think your brain is going to appreciate super-high temperatures for very long.
Isobel Mitar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.03 13:01:00 - [18] The main prime fiction source about cloning The prime fiction quite clearly indicates cloning is available to non-capsuleers and even provides some statistics about clones sold to non-capsuleers. 1 It is possible to get cloned if one dies outside a pod. To this purpose one needs to have a "transneural burning scanner" mounted close to the person at all times, and activated exactly a moment before death. However, the problem is that the cloning process outside the pod is not as reliable, due to variable circumstances of death - it may fire off accidentally, or fail to activate the when it should. 2 The cloning scanning process always causes massive physical damage to the brain to be scanned. 2, 3 The clone is not a perfect copy of the person being cloned, although in optimal conditions it is possible to get very close. If the clone has been purchased months in advance, it is possible to get a clone that is physically extremely close to the original. The cloning process of the brain is also not perfect. In optimal conditions the brain copy can retain up to 99,99% of the original memories. 3, 4, 5 Personal observations and theories about cloning 1. Jump clones The prime fiction I've read does not mention jump clones explicitly. However, there is an explanation of cultivating several possible target clone bodies in different locations, and the other parts of the process fit too. So I'd expect the cloning process with jump clones is the same as with regular cloning except that the original body is not destroyed. Instead new brainstuff is inserted in preparation of a possible jump back. 2. Backups and duplicates Technically, I do not personally see why one could not store a backup copy of the brain state whenever a scan is made. (In practice, a backup can be made only whenever a person is cloned, as an accurate scan severely damages the brain) With the way PF is written (emphasis on whether the original is alive or dead), I theorize the clone is not considered legally the same person as the original unless the original is confirmed dead. (There are some obvious legal difficulties with having two copies of the same person around at the same time, such as the question of: "Whose property is this spaceship?".) Immortality Assuming the maximal 99,99% copy rate can be reached every time, the faithfulness figure of the clone compared to to the original would be: 99,90% after 10 clonings 90,48% after 1000 clonings 36,79% after 10 000 clonings To my mind this clearly indicates capsuleers are in fact not immortal and can't live forever, even if they never again leave the pod. The cloning technology "ensures" that over time, eventually, the accumulated brain damage from being a copy of a copy will catch up with the space captain. Although if the capsuleer is careful, he is likely to survive as something closely resembling himself for a very, very long time. (Assuming something else doesn't happen in the meanwhile, of course...)
Marine HK4861 Caldari Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.11.03 18:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Isobel Mitar 3. Immortality and capsuleers Assuming the maximal 99,99% copy rate can be reached every time, the faithfulness figure of the clone compared to to the original would be: 99,90% after 10 clonings 90,48% after 1000 clonings 36,79% after 10 000 clonings To my mind this clearly indicates capsuleers are in fact not immortal and can't live forever, even if they never again leave the pod. The cloning technology "ensures" that over time, eventually, the accumulated brain damage from being a copy of a copy will catch up with the space captain. Although if the capsuleer is careful, he is likely to survive as something closely resembling himself for a very, very long time. (Assuming something else doesn't happen in the meanwhile, of course...) You're assuming that any degradation in the copy quality is significant. From the articles, they say they make a full brain scan and given that the average human only uses a small percentage of the brain as long as the critical neural pathways are preserved (those that make up your memory, personality, etc), those outer unused fringes of your brain can stay a garbled mess with no effect. There's also the possibility of having fixed backups of your brain to which any new copy can be compared to and corrected accordingly. In addition, the brain can rewire itself to correct for minor defects, thus it can adjust to small minor errors with each copy. Admittedly after 10 thousand copies, the current pilot's personality and memory may not resemble the original's very much, but with such a gradual change over a such a long time period (I doubt even the most hardened fleet PVPer has had that many clones), wouldn't it just be attributed to normal character changes with age?
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.04 06:41:00 - [20] There is a chronicle that directly references jump cloning by a non-capsuleer. Note that jump cloning implies a method for brain scanning that is non-destructive. Additionally, your degradation calculations assume a static mind. Since a human mind changes significantly from day to day, any number of clonings would likely fail to cause serious degradation, though I imagine the chances of a more serious error in one or more goes up as you approach 10000. Finally, the cloning scientific article doesn't explicitly rule out non-burner cloning. It says that for a perfect, up to date copy you need a burner. To me, in addition to jump clones, this would imply a method whereby a less destructive scan can be taken at regular intervals. This would mean the new 'you' wasn't entirely up to date, but you would be at least able to be resurrected up to the point of the scan. Note that this isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere in PF, only implied. (Unless someone who gets Eon has better information). -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Isobel Mitar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.05 21:24:00 - [21] Jump cloning and non-destructive scanning I agree that jump cloning implies that the body one jumps away from is not destroyed (the clone is still on the station it was left in and the implants stay). However, from what I've read, I've found no implication that jump cloning would necessarily be connected to a non-destructive brain scanning method? I admit to not having read every piece of prime fiction and being a non-native English speaker, so I might have missed some cues - can you please point me to the reference that implies a different, non-destructive brain scan method for jump cloning? I've understood the burning scan damages the gray matter severely, but keeps the body alive "as a vegetable" - which sounds to me quite similar to the state in which prospective future target clone bodies are maintained. (Respiration, heartbeat etc.) Yes, the existence of alternative scanning methods for non-up-to-date snapshots is not ruled out in prime fiction; however in the material I've read only the destructive method and the difficulties involved is described whenever cloning is mentioned. So I personally preferred to go with the existing prime fiction that seems to fit jump cloning as well rather than conjecture different scanning methods. Further comments on the degradation calculations I agree with both Marine HK4861 and Silver Night. The human mind is not static and there is likely to be a lot of unused, non-essential and recoverable (can be recreated by the brain itself after they are lost) portions in the brain. I would also argue that becoming a capsuleer and the capsuleer life (including, but not limited to going thorough cloning as an experience) very probably change the personality of the pilot more and faster than the actual cloning process and errors in copying do. I was perhaps not clear enough about the point I was trying to make about capsuleer immortality; not about living for five years or five hundred but forever. As I see it, whenever a brain gets copied, one is basically playing a russian roulette with a small chance of an error one can't recover from. As the copy is copied again and again, the accumulated probability does eventually start to pile up. So I do not personally feel capsuleers have permanently escaped mortality, an intristic aspect of humanity, even if they are able to cheat death for a very long time - and often like to boast about it.
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.06 06:27:00 - [22] I think the presence of non-destructive scanning is implicit in jumpcloning. The problem is that the normal scanner literally burns the brain up. Were this the case, you wouldn't have a handy, still implanted clone waiting for you. Also, for context, the only chronicle that references jump cloning was written well before the mechanic was introduced in-game. There is no PF that is contemporary with the mechanic which mentions it, unless someone cares to dig and see if there is a relevant news article. -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.11.06 08:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Silver Night I think the presence of non-destructive scanning is implicit in jumpcloning. The problem is that the normal scanner literally burns the brain up. Were this the case, you wouldn't have a handy, still implanted clone waiting for you. Also, for context, the only chronicle that references jump cloning was written well before the mechanic was introduced in-game. There is no PF that is contemporary with the mechanic which mentions it, unless someone cares to dig and see if there is a relevant news article. You have a 24 hour jump delay. Other than game mechanics, couldn't this period be used to grow new brain cells and prepare the body left behind for the jump back? I'm not sure how they'd put in a new brain but I think the same nano machine thingies that repair wounds quickly could be fit for the job? Diary of a pod pilot
Isobel Mitar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.06 17:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Silver Night I think the presence of non-destructive scanning is implicit in jumpcloning. The problem is that the normal scanner literally burns the brain up. Were this the case, you wouldn't have a handy, still implanted clone waiting for you. This is exactly the part I'm puzzled about. Why would the clone body and implants suddenly become unusable if the grey matter was damaged by the scan? I've understood the cloning text so that the burning scanner explicitly damages the brain, and not the implants or other parts of the body. The cloning article also implies that inserting a new brain to a body is reasonably trivial (meaning, not worth technobabble explanations). By the way, thanks for an interesting bit of information about the timing of cloning references.
Marine HK4861 Caldari Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.11.06 19:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Isobel Mitar As I see it, whenever a brain gets copied, one is basically playing a russian roulette with a small chance of an error one can't recover from. As the copy is copied again and again, the accumulated probability does eventually start to pile up. There will eventually be damage, and a failure. What's stopping you from comparing the copy to the original (or a backup) and then making modifications to the copy to alter any changes introduced by burning? You need to think more digitally.
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.06 22:49:00 - [26] The implants. Those are the issue. We know they are very delicate. If it was just a brain that was the problem, a new one could be slapped in there. Additionally, one of the primary costs of new clones is higher grade biomatter for the brain. So if you needed a new one each time, you would need new implants, and would have to pay for the new brain. Additionally, if we take a different tack here, what is to stop you from keeping a copy from a destructive scan? Far less efficient than if a non-destructive scan is available (which I still feel it is) but effectively the same end result. My feeling on it though remains that the destructive scan is used in the pod because of issues of time. It needs to be instantaneous because you are about to die. So it pulses, images and simultaneously destroys the brain. Given more time I don't see why a less (which is to say - non) destructive scan couldn't be done with the sort of tech available in the Eve universe. -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.11.07 09:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Silver Night My feeling on it though remains that the destructive scan is used in the pod because of issues of time. It needs to be instantaneous because you are about to die. So it pulses, images and simultaneously destroys the brain. Given more time I don't see why a less (which is to say - non) destructive scan couldn't be done with the sort of tech available in the Eve universe. Never thought about a slower copy process. I assumed clone jumping was instantly, based off the game mechanics. Diary of a pod pilot
Che Biko Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2008.11.07 18:03:00 - [28] AFAIK, scanning is non-destructive usually, it's only the burning scanner that is destructive. This is because the burning scanner can't take it's time like normal scanners, it has to do it (a lot) faster, causing the brain damage.
Isobel Mitar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.07 18:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Silver Night The implants. Those are the issue. We know they are very delicate. If it was just a brain that was the problem, a new one could be slapped in there. I think we will just have to agree we have different approaches in a matter not well covered by the prime fiction. I don't see why, given the technology available in Eve universe, the scan would need to damage the implants if it damages the grey matter. You don't see why, given the technology available in Eve universe, one could not devise a way of scanning that did not damage the brain. Originally by: Silver Night Additionally, one of the primary costs of new clones is higher grade biomatter for the brain. So if you needed a new one each time, you would need new implants, and would have to pay for the new brain. I have not read of an actual cost breakdown for clones anywhere. As far as I know, the primary "cost factor" for new clones could just as well be how much the clone company guesses a pilot could afford based on pilot age.
Silver Night Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.07 22:14:00 - [30] Well, the correct answer is: CCP haven't said, so do what you want. Happily there is room for disagreement, cause it is a big cluster. Both views certainly have merit. On the biomatter thing, that is another implied link. I haven't read the article in a while, so I could be blurry on the specifics, but it says that higher grade biomatter (which is more expensive) is needed to make higher grade clones (which keep more skillpoints). This would mean a link between biomass quality and quality of the new brain. So a newbie pilot clone is made out of vegetable stems and spit, and keeps 1m SP. My clone, on the other hand, best be made out of the Amarr Empress's pet kittens and bottled virgin tears for how much it costs me and keeps lot of skill points. -------------- The Clown Man. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Sansha's Nation Supporter

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