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Spider Jeru
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Posted - 2003.06.16 23:53:00 -
[1]
Not a cry for a nerf for lasers or projectiles, just a request that the balancing on hybrid turrets get a bit of a look. If you're in a Gallente cruiser, hybrids should be your bread and butter; they're said to be the most damaging as is they are in fact the worst choice of the three options. Particularly rotten is the Dual 150 class railguns, which even in thier Prototype Gauss iteration hit for less than the single 150 mm frigate sized gauss.
Please take into account that a weapon that 'double dips' into capacitor energy and ammunition is supposed to be repaid for that penalty in damage, and currently is in fact the worst type from a damage perspective.
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Nighthawk
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Posted - 2003.06.17 00:12:00 -
[2]
i totally agree........i fitted 2 dual 150mm railguns to my blackbird and they are much worse than if i fit my frigate 150mm.... im now switching to projectiles till ccp fix the hybrid balancing
--- All hail to the mighty space hamster!!! --- |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 02:34:00 -
[3]
Hmm.. yup, hybrids are crap right now. Both the weaknesses of proj/laser.. and not even half as good as either. Even people with ships that have hybrid bonuses, are using projectile or lasers.. something is wrong. Next patch needs to boost hybrids or proj/laser needs nerf, I don't care which happens, so long as all weapon types in this game are viable.
While we're speaking of balancing weapons, missles need a good look at too, way too expensive.. and just plain suck, they also need to be fixed.
And as a final point, pvp in this game, in general is broken. Cruisers can still waste each other in under 10 seconds. I'm sorry but a ship that took you a week to get shouldn't be destroyed in under 15 seconds by another cruiser.. at this rate, with the way pvp is, people will start quitting out of fustration.
With the current damage ships can dish out, and the current time it takes to get a good ship.. losing a cruiser is just insanely annoying.. considering how easy it is to pop one with the current damage cruisers can inflict.
Who targets who first wins, most of the time.. where is the tactics in that? Anyone?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Axelay
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Posted - 2003.06.17 03:17:00 -
[4]
I agree.
Projectile should have range and long refire and devistate armour.
Lasers should have medium ranges and devistate shields
Hybrids should have extreme range and do fair damage to both shield and armour.
Since hybrids (as has been mentioned) have the same cap usage as lasers AND require ammo, they should be the most devistating weapons in the game.
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m0o
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.17 05:08:00 -
[5]
Hybrids have the most devastating weapons in the Particle Blasters. The Railguns don't do as much damage because they have better range than every other weapon. The 250mm gauss also has extreme damage in addition to the good range.
I agree the dual 150mm railgun is a joke considering the single 150mm railgun is as good, but both lasers and projectiles have their own utter crpa weapons as well.
The one thing that needs balancing is the Projectile Artilleries and Projectile Autocannons. Artilleries have better range, damage and use less ammo. What fool would use Autocannons now ?
imo all weapons should be completely reworked with balance in mind. They were unbalanced from the start, and ccp has done some erratic changes boosting or nerfing items far to much.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 05:12:00 -
[6]
Ions range is really really pathetic.. it's not worth limiting yourself to such a small range of engagement when the dmg mult generally isn't even as good as a decent projectile weapon..
Rails are okay, at the right range, but still they're simply not as good as proj/laser.
Hybrid just needs to be better overall, I know every weapon type has "gimp" variations.
An overall overhaul to weapons would be nice. Missles could use a lot of work too, they blow.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.17 05:26:00 -
[7]
I dont know of any projectile weapon dealing more damage than the ion blasters.
And that is not because Im ignorant
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 05:41:00 -
[8]
425mm Scout Artillery = 3.9dmg mod.
Heavy Ions, 3.25.. the pirate drop, I think 3.5. Scout wins by a quite a bit.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Zinke
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Posted - 2003.06.17 05:48:00 -
[9]
What you guys are forgettting is power grid and CPU requirements for good hybrid weapons.
As Nighthawk said 150mm railguns are better than dual 150mm railguns, and since he have Blackbird he can kiss 250mm and even heavy ion, neutron blasters away.
They will never be fitted on BB.
Also blasters have ridiculous range and i would never use something like that in this game as you would die before ever getting in range of enemy.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 05:56:00 -
[10]
Yeah that's another problem with hybrids.. the cpu/power cost of them is so insane you can never fit more than 3 of anything decent on a cruiser. Bleh.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.17 08:41:00 -
[11]
Dont be as lame as to compare damage mod only. We both know the Ion blaster has RoF 5 and the scout artillery has RoF 6.8. And if youre still doing it, compare the rare artillery to a rare ion blaster.
425mm scout artillery has damage 0.57x/sec and range 9000+25000.
The 250mm gauss has a lower damage at 0.5x/sec, but better range, 24000+10000. It does have an activation cost however, but thats all that really separates these two.
The Anode Heavy Ion, or something, has by far the highest damage at 0.72x/sec, but it also has a rather low range with 2070+9000.
So what can we say? The projectile artilleries are arguably somewhat better than the hybrid railguns, but the hybrid blasters is way better than the Projectile Autocannons. Didnt put them up here because I didn't have any of them near me, but they really arent spectacular in any way.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.17 09:19:00 -
[12]
Antimatter has a range penalty of -60%. That means a 250mm Rail will have 8km range when they start working next patch, though with the same damage they have now.
The "best" projectile ammo only has -35% as far as I know. In beta, EMP was the best and had -35% IIRC anyway. Haven't used projectiles in retail.
So they REALLY need to buff Hybrids, or nerf the other two.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 09:21:00 -
[13]
If anything hybrids cpu/power cost should be lowered, atleast. Perhaps even capacitator use too.. I mean, it's as high as lasers.. and you gotta use ammo too? Bleh.. should be atleast less than lasers.
And yes, the range penalty on hybrids is insane, EMP which is quite arguably better than anti-matter ammo doesn't have nearly the range penalty.. 35% vs 60%? Come on..
Hybrids, do very much need to be improved. They are the worst weapons in the game, aside from missles, of course.
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/06/2003 09:29:47
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Yarrr
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Posted - 2003.06.17 11:49:00 -
[14]
I've seen a few posts now about weapons and damage, and have to ask/point out the following:
Of the three, surely a projectile weapon would be the worst? Ammo has a finite speed and must be fired to a point in advance of the target (deflection shooting). Presumably its range would be high, as there is no atmosphere of gravity to affect trajectory?
A laser has an enormous range, given that it is a very high energy, focused, beam of light, and in the absence of atmosphere to scatter the beam, should be able to travel a very long way at the speed of light (obviously), inflicting massive amounts of thermal damage (if not any other sort).
Hybrid weapons (as I understand them) are basically railguns - a small slug/projectile is accelerated to very high (sub light) speeds. This gives the advantage of enourmous speed (slower than a laser, but much much faster than a standard proj. weapon), and massive damage as you get a dense slug travelling at high speed imparting a massive kinetic force (if nothing else) into the target.
So - weapon ranges and damage etc - what gives?
Cheers
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.17 11:59:00 -
[15]
Hybrids SHOULD be the most powerful weapons due to their enourmous powergrid usage combined with cap usage like a Laser and ammo usage like a Projectile.
They were in beta, and Projectiles were very well balanced against them since the non-existant cap usage allowed you to use defensive modules to absorb the additional damage Hybrids did, and allowed you to stay in combat for as long as you had ammo. And I used Projectiles in late beta and fought ALOT, so I know what i'm talking about.
And now they vastly increased damage on Projectile weapons, leaving no reason to even use Hybrids anymore. Extremely silly move by CCP.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Shadowspawn
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Posted - 2003.06.17 12:02:00 -
[16]
Something needs to be done: they had the right idea toning down some of the weapons, but they left others out of the loop creating a huge disparity
Best gun in the game right now is dual 425 scouts as they have the highest damage vs range in the game.. they are sick.. 3.9x ? Faster firing rate than anything else comprible as well.
CCP needs to look at their classes and fix the guns to suit their specific races/ships. After this laser patch went i can't do @#$@#$ damage with heavy modulated lasers (I only hit for around 100) while the same level of char using duals hit for much much more and at much higher damage. why? because of their ship bonus to damage as well.. ON TOP of their damage bonus that they get with this gun... that means they on average can do at leat 20% more and .9x more than a comparisson with a beam or another gun. Either give all the high line cruisers of each race a damage bonus or fix the weapons so that in the end there will be less of a disparity.
I'm not asking for a completely equal playing field.. but this combo is worse than a stinkin beam/stamped combo taht m00 was running...
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.17 12:09:00 -
[17]
I used 425mm Scout artilleries in Beta and went up against countless of Hybrid users (Heavy Neutrons mostly), and won due to my ability to stay in combat longer, even when vastly outnumbered. Projectiles didn't even need a buff for crying out loud!
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.17 12:13:00 -
[18]
Oh yes they did... and btw heavy neutrons are really bad so no wonder you won.
I agree that the artillery wpns were boosted to much, but its only a single unbalanced element that has recieved the "most whine of the week" award.
CCP should rework their entire itembase, it is already unbalanced in to many ways to mention, and CCP cranking some few selected items too much up or too much down doesn't help the great picture.
Edited by: StoreSlem on 17/06/2003 12:16:16
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 12:17:00 -
[19]
Ion/Neutrons are useless.
Anyways, it's kind of annoying that 90% of the player base that has a cruiser, are using projectiles. Yeah, it's probably just the 425mm Scout, nothing else looks horribly imbalanced.
Still annoys me rails use 300power and lots of cpu, though.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.17 12:18:00 -
[20]
No, Heavy Neutrons was "the ****" back in beta. Unless i'm remembering incorrectly.
And apart from the overall too low damage mods on Hybrids, they're good now aswell. They use much lower cap/damage/second than Ion Blasters, thus good for support vessels that need their cap elsewhere and is willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of damage. Ion Blasters are 2.3375 cap/23.75 damage/second. Neutrons are 1.2 cap/18 damage/second.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.17 12:21:00 -
[21]
First all rails got very bad tracking rate. So you miss more easy. Blasters use 225 powergrid and can shoot 800m optimal and 4km fallout with antimatter. 250mm rails use 300 power and with antimatter you got 9.5km optimal and an extra 4k falloff.
When switching to large weapons we lose everything. We all know hybrids do less damage, we also know the shot worse due to tracking.
So all of you saying range. 425mm rail can shoot 48km total if using ammo without penalty. Both projectiles and lasers can hit 75km+ away.
So when we change to our battleships. Hybrids will do less damage, use cap, use ammo, 70% range of other weapons, use ALOT of power, miss more due to tracking.
Can anyone tell me why using hybrids. Without trying to cover it up? Also weapon mods for hybrids are almost impossible to find. And until patch 1077 there was only 1 series.
Edited by: Shintai on 17/06/2003 12:23:20
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 13:02:00 -
[22]
Ya, what Shintai said. Please fix Hybrids next patch, CCP. It's ridiculously imbalanced at the moment.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
DJvGalen
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Posted - 2003.06.17 13:10:00 -
[23]
I also created a new topic about this, I think they allready reduced power on Laser's since I could handle 3 baddies at once and after a (server?)patch I can barely handle one baddy with same ship/configuration. I think they lowered the small civilian shield booster as well, or they cranked up the NPC power considerably. Not sure though, cannot find latest patch info.
Either way it's not good for players who are still in a lowbie ship instead of a Cruiser.
Edited by: DJvGalen on 17/06/2003 13:10:41
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CCP please fix your patch so I can play with my corpmates again soon. |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.06.17 14:09:00 -
[24]
We get our 250 hybrids to hit between 100-150 dmg at 22 km range. I think that is pretty good.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Red Vortex
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Posted - 2003.06.17 15:20:00 -
[25]
In the beginning I had problems with my weapons but that was due to the fact that I did not keep in mind the distances for each gun. Knowing how much your weapon does at different distances makes a big deal in how much damage is done to your target. Once I got the hang of keep track of my target distance, it was no problem killing them with either laser, hybrid, or projectile weapons.
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Nighthawk
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Posted - 2003.06.17 15:27:00 -
[26]
im sorry, but there is no excuse for the dual 150mm railgun doing less damage than the single 150mm when both loaded with equivilant ammo. i mean surely it defies logic that a dual 150mm does anything other than twice the damage of a single 150mm railgun, let alone less!
--- All hail to the mighty space hamster!!! --- |
DeathMan
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Posted - 2003.06.17 16:05:00 -
[27]
Well I use right now 2 425mm Scouts that do around 100-150 damage at 20km easy with EMP ammo. And also use 2 Heavy Ion Blasters with Antimatter ammo that do 80damage within 12km.
Heck i've gotten 250 damage on Heavy Ion and 390 on the 425mm's. This is with no modifications to the guns either.
Deathman
Admiral
Blackship Industries
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Hanns
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Posted - 2003.06.17 16:28:00 -
[28]
Zinke you say he can never fit 250mm rails on his BB, i have a BB and i use two 250mm rails and i can use two heavy beam lasers (not at the same time obviously), and i can fit ECM, sheild boosters and AB's at the same time with only one 10% reactor control, granted i have enginering lvl 4, but it is possible to do what you said he couldnt!
But i still agree on the overal topic, the dual 150mm rails are just plain pathetic i wouldnt even use them on a frigate the 250mm rails need MORE Mw to fit to your ship than a heavy Beam laser AND need ammo AND have less damage, thats just wrong in my book, granted the Heavy beam lasers use more CAP, but the extra amount of damage you do by the time your cap is dry, would probably work out the same for a rail gun running till cap is dry!
and WTF happend to MWD's??? nerf, nerf,nerf and nerf!
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.06.17 16:52:00 -
[29]
another bad point for hybrids is that their basic weapon upgrades (basic magnetic field) takes almost twice as much cpu as basic laser and projectile upgrades, both taking 30 cpu where the hybrid's takes 50.
Add to that the non-existance of rare/named/upgraded weapon mods, HUGE powergrid usage of hybrids, insuficent powergrid on the cruisers that are made for hybrid weapons (exequror, vexor, thorax)... it hurts hybrid users, gallente particulary, ALOT (not even talking about the crappy drone interface)
ex : thorax has 675 powergrid, 5/3/5 and 5 turrets, a 250mm RG uses 300powergrid, you cant fit 5 guns on it, even with 5 RCUs and lvl 5 engineering ! barely 4, and then u have no cpu for med slot items, and dont think of weapon mods, u wont have enough cpu again... or not enough powergrid...
cmon CCP, give the gallente cruiser a ~30% powergrid extra so we can actualy use thoses guns, lower the hybrid weapon upgrades cpu usage to laser and projectile's level and put rare ones in the cargo of npc pirates !
Having everyone with one type of guns shows imbalance, just like it was with everyone using MWDs, but dont nerf projectiles and lasers to the extreme so noone use em, make hybrids better... and a better drone interface... and increase the shield/armor/hull/cap of all ships by 50% so we have longer fights... pleeeaaase ? make this agme what it should be :)
Edited by: Muaddid on 17/06/2003 16:52:46
Edited by: Muaddid on 17/06/2003 16:56:13
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Letifer Deus
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Posted - 2003.06.17 16:55:00 -
[30]
I did much better dmg per second on my dual 150mm scout artiller than on dual 150mm rails. thats pathetic.
I am the OG PIIIIIMP |
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