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Dez Affinity
Evocati.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 03:30:00 -
[1]
Recently I lost a ship to a bug and naturally I had to petition it. I've been playing this game for quite a while and I've come to understand that although it has its bugs (or features lol) it is also a unique game. Now usually you'll come across interesting bugs, server lag and you just keep playing, but sometimes it aids in the destruction of your ship. Some bugs I can recall at this moment are a Global Criminal Countdown that renewed itself constantly and there was nothing I could do, I stayed in a safespot for an hour, I docked up for an hour, I logged of for several hours, GMs even reset the NPCs but nothing. But hey I didn't lose a ship, so I got over it, all I lost was a bit of patience and the GM really did try to help.
Luckily CCP has a system in place to try and recuperate you from this. Unfortunatly, I think most will agree, it's not very good. Infact when I lost my ship, I told a friend and the first thing he said was 'What's the point, they won't reimburse it, they never do'. Now this says to me one thing, either the player base regularly lie about encountering bugs (which is possible) or the petition system is a joke. It's probably a mixture.
I'll start with one of the main problems I have with the petition system is the Cookie Cutter, Copy + Paste responses, it's impersonal and it makes me feel like they haven't even read the petition. I assume this is because of the volume of petitions but I'd rather have to wait 2 weeks and have my petition fully explored than be passed off like that.
Secondly, GMs will not give you any information about what occurred, so you can't confirm they are even looking at your petition, not only that but you get the feeling their logs really don't show anything and they don't actually have a logging system in place. How can you possibly argue your point when they won't tell you what they believe happened.
By reimbursing a ship, CCP is admitting that there was a bug or a technical fault, is that why they are commonly denied? They don't want to accept that there is a bug? I don't honestly know, just throwing out some ideas.
I can foresee most replies to this thread, that being that I am bitter, well, you would be right. I like to think that I know a lot about this game and if I believe there to be an anomalous incident then I'm going to petition it. Not because I don't have the ISK to replace the ship, that doesn't really mean anything to me, it's more a matter of principal. If I lose a ship in normal gameplay, that's cool, I'll be a bit guttered for a while but it's cool. If I lose a ship to no fault of my own then I will be annoyed.
What I do want to ask is, how many of you are satisfied with the current petition system? What would you change? How successful are your petitions?
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sfsdf
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Posted - 2008.10.30 03:34:00 -
[2]
I agree with you, the petition response system is monotome, they copy paste, make you feel like WTF I WAITED DAYS FOR A BIG !NO!.
In my experience, petition systems just works for two things:
Jita black screen of death
&
Comply if you get hacked
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Sergio Ling
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 03:37:00 -
[3]
I'm currently waiting on a petition response. My inty was doing ~19km/s in an FW plex, and rats (who were over 50km away originally) all fired missiles on me, and they all caught me and did full damage. of course, this is broken, yet the GM wouldn't return my ship, and I got a copy/paste answer. escalated it, and the senior GM told me he'd spend a few days looking at things, including the plex, because he wanted all the facts before he made a decision...couldn't the orignal GM have wanted all the facts too?
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BET ISK ON ANYTHING AT ALL |
NSSQUAD
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Posted - 2008.10.30 03:38:00 -
[4]
You know what I have played for a wile to. Filed a number of petitions and I kind of feel the same way. It feels like a cold shoulder. I wouldn't be so ext ream if they where addressing major things in the game. But until the launch I will hold my opinion.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.30 03:40:00 -
[5]
Yea, the petition system is crap, they should just remove the reimbursement section, because while I know a handful of folks who've gotten ships returned, I know far more who have raged over the copy/paste crap response given by gm's.
My worst shot, was a sort of ladder event. A GM said this is what happened, I said no, this couldn't have happened because of this, he was like, oh, well, would you like me to escalate this for further review? Yes....on and on through about 5 GM's it went, each started off with the same canned response, with I rebuffed with the same argument.
Finally, it was reviewed by a Senior GM, who, amazingly enough, started with the same canned response, which I rebuffed, and I've still got the petition open, after 5 months with no further response.
Reimbursement Petition = Farce
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DubanFP
Caldari
Evil ALT Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.30 03:49:00 -
[6]
Overall I do like CCP and the way they run EVE, but you're right. The reimbursement system is rather crappy. I was once ganked by 7 people in a when EVE went funky. I needed to file a stuck petition because the system wouldn't load properly so there was obviously something wrong on their servers that kept me from logging back on that should have shown.
Now I can afford to lose a Hurricane but it's the response I got that's terrible. The GM responded matter of factly that they didn't reimburse ships lost in "fleet battles" despite the fact that the only people involved were me and a handful of other players. When I pointed out the fact that 7 v 1 in no way qualified as a "fleet battle" he went into a lengthy spiel about how lag effects both sides equally and that the lag causes their logs to be a slideshow without very clear coverage, yatta yatta yatta.
It's obvious he didn't even look very closely at the logs. Other then that I really do like the job the Devs do, and the other parts of the petition system have been clear and very A++. They just really need to look into the reimbursement wing.
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"White, Black, Minmitar, Achura, Male or Female it doesn't matter to me. I'm an equal opportunity killer" |
CharlieMurphy
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.10.30 06:56:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Dez Affinity
I'll start with one of the main problems I have with the petition system is the Cookie Cutter, Copy + Paste responses, it's impersonal and it makes me feel like they haven't even read the petition. I assume this is because of the volume of petitions but I'd rather have to wait 2 weeks and have my petition fully explored than be passed off like that.
Secondly, GMs will not give you any information about what occurred, so you can't confirm they are even looking at your petition, not only that but you get the feeling their logs really don't show anything and they don't actually have a logging system in place. How can you possibly argue your point when they won't tell you what they believe happened.
They probably havent read the petition, there have been several cases where GMs have given a wrong and totally irrelevant response to a question that wasnt even asked. The GMs in this game take no interest in the actual facts, if you lost your ship in pvp your not getting it back... it doesnt matter that the game has been frozen for the last x number of hours, or that any number of other players are petitioning for the same thing, or even that the node may have crashed repeatedly - the logs will show nothing, nothing happened, CCP cant confirm it, you payed for this you sucker, now please stop expecting any kind of fair treatment cause your not getting it. Have a nice day and we hope you recover quickly!
Next time you petition try asking a few questions and it will soon become apparent that if there are any logs the GMs certainly havent looked at them and they dont really have any idea what actually happened, they read as far as you asking for your ship back and then declined your petition
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.30 07:48:00 -
[8]
One major reason you see that "copy/paste" replies (which you do in all/most MMO's btw) is for legal reasons. We're all humans and the directive from higher up is to give the copy/paste response as it's less aggravating than having a GM type something that could be misread or is offensive.
Now, this is offensive in itself, but it helps the company, it helps the GM's, and ultimately it actually helps the players in the longer run as it gives stability in petition responses.
You'll never see the end of copy/paste. I bet in X years from now, noone will care. It's already standard, we just have alot of players that isn't used to the MMO reality yet.
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Asa Sigrun
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Posted - 2008.10.30 08:24:00 -
[9]
I really dont like being told about the MMO reality and how we must all accept it. What is annoying is not the lack of replacement ships, but the presence of a broken system and its broken because people accept it to easily.
There seem to be easy answers to most of the player complaints, and yet CCP seems to be very ineffective in giving correct, logical information as to why the answers are not as easy as they seem.
For example, a lot of people are mad about ghost training being gone, and while I can fully appreciate the reasons CCP stated for dropping it, the big bonus of training while offline it nearly canceled out by the inability to train an alt.
A corp can't organize power training to make up for lost time with alts the way you can in a normal MMO, so why can't we train 1 alt along with our primary? That way we could at least have a HOPE of being able to change characters without wasting all the money we have given them thus far.
CCP does have a better MMO than most, but they sure arent a better company than most.
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CALUGARU
Repo Industries
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 09:44:00 -
[10]
so liek i petitiond and say "hey,plz giev me my monay bak, i lose my ship in lag" and they were liek "naw..." :(
Furthermore, i do not think that this kind of behavior is accepted in any society or group. The nerve some people demostrate - is beyond comprehension! Why do people have signatures like this?! |
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Asa Sigrun
I really dont like being told about the MMO reality and how we must all accept it.
..and I don't like whiners or trolls, but got to learn to live with it to play the game I like. That, too, is part of the MMO reality.
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Fulber
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:06:00 -
[12]
CCP Has Awful Customer Service, News at 11. |
Dikanal
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:29:00 -
[13]
The players really do not help the situation so many people attempt to abuse the reimbursements that the GMs probably dismiss most requests, I have even met people in the various corps and alliances I have been in that automatically petition any ship loss whatever the reason really was.
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NereSky
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 10:40:00 -
[14]
I have a long term gripe with the petition system,
my 2 cents;
I recognise Eve is meant to be a harsh enviroment kill or be killed etc and i have lost a untold amount of ships to lag, nodes going down and being reset in 0.0 so i decided to leave that area and concentrate in Empire and scratch a living, now i have to contend with bugs
Whilst losing ships is acceptable in combat with or without the lag - as lag is to be expected but losing a ship to a bug which is outside of the players control and game mechanics and having a copy/paste reply saying no our logs dont show it really offends me.
I can work/grind in game for 6 months within game mechanics etc - lose a expensive ship to a bug which you cannot control to then petition - bearing in mind in almost 5 yrs of game play ive submitted 4 petitions for ship loss due to extreme lag/ and bugs 'not one' has been reimbursed lol
I then ask myself whats the point of it - i know the GM's answering these petitions havent a clue about gameplay and the copy/paste replys you get is because well they dont play the game.
Ive been treat with sub standard customer service to such a large degree on one accassion i complained formally to be told i wont be told the complaint has been reveived nor will i hear a outcome of it,
I then got told even if the bug hunters can verify the bug they still wont reimburse as their logs still wont show it.
So i know CCP doesnt care about their player base all they care about is being right when they are wrong.
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Zeonos
Amarr
Silence of the LAMBS
Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.30 12:00:00 -
[15]
i do think its faulty.
the best solution i can come up with, is the way blizzard do it.
you make a petition, then when a gm reads it, he will contact you ingame, if your not online they will send a ingame mail.
this give the gm a better chance to talk about the problem, it gets the problem solved quicker, since you don't have to wait X hours between each reply.
and it gives a better experience to the players.
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CharlieMurphy
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.10.30 12:21:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Misanth
One major reason you see that "copy/paste" replies (which you do in all/most MMO's btw) is for legal reasons
I have only ever played one other MMO (which shall remain nameless  ) and this certainly wasnt the case, infact the difference in customer service was amazing, however i must point out that i never had to go to GMs asking for my stuff back because of bugs/server probelems or extream lag - in other words that game actually worked as advertised. Legal reasons? be interesting to know what cause i cant imagine
Originally by: Misanth
Now, this is offensive in itself
It certainly is
Originally by: Misanth
but it helps the company
By avoiding responsability?
Originally by: Misanth
it helps the GM's
Im sure it does, they dont have to take any time to do their job, or even to think. Just keep pasting the same old bs. I always thought GMs were sposed to help the players, ensure that things run smoothly and people are enjoying themselfs. EVEs GMs are the ingame equivalent of a call center in india
Originally by: Misanth
and ultimately it actually helps the players in the longer run as it gives stability in petition responses
Well i cant say i agree with you there and petition responses are far from stable. Some people seem to get reimbursed and while there is no point speculating why that migth be it just reinforces the perception that the system is somewhat dishonest.
It wasnt always like this, i can remember a time when so long as you had a reasonable case you would get reimbursed. I seem to remember it stopped shortly after goons started their mass blob tactics that would break nodes and generate lots of petitions, one day it was announced that there would be no more reimbursments for lag and they have clung doggedly to this ever sinse no matter how wrong it is.
If the system doesnt work, that should be CCPs responsability not the players
Originally by: NereSky
Oh and the reason why CCP does not reimburse is i believe as a knee jerk reaction it forces players to buy GTC's to replace the loss therefore increasing revenue for CCP
lol
i hadnt thought of it like that but you never know, anything is possible
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Sniper Wolf18
Gallente
Apocalypse Ponies
H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2008.10.30 12:34:00 -
[17]
Tbh i say we should all act like whiney carebears and poast 1bn whine threads about it. Then CCP will fix it  .
Though the reimbursement system is borken, when eve voice was new, i tried that out, crashed and after 10 mins i had to turn my system off at the power supply, logged back in to a pod, petitioned that CCP's CLEARLY unfinished product had caused the crash and got a copy paste reply.
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CALUGARU
Repo Industries
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 12:44:00 -
[18]
my ship blew up, i was near a stargate, ofc i couldn't jump, because it takes 30 sec for the session change but my cursor couldn't click anything. it was arrow shaped even when hovering over planets or anything, thus couldn't select anything to warp to, and right click didn't work either, even with max zoom and on any part of the scren the ship menu would pop up.
got killed and podded, "ze logs...they show nuffin!!" >.>
Furthermore, i do not think that this kind of behavior is accepted in any society or group. The nerve some people demostrate - is beyond comprehension! Why do people have signatures like this?! |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.30 13:52:00 -
[19]
So, what 'bug' did you lose your ship to then?
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NereSky
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:04:00 -
[20]
Edited by: NereSky on 30/10/2008 14:03:43
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So, what 'bug' did you lose your ship to then?
I need to follow forum rules unfortunately - in case the 'bug' is exploited in-game, although im sorely tempted lol
Also im trying to be vague on purpose else it will give the moderators an excuse to moderate/delete my post 
rules state we cannot post this info
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:07:00 -
[21]
My point was mostly that people classify everything as a bug even though most of the time it isn't, if it's a REAL problem then yes I can understand. However most of the time "bug" is short for "I made a mistake or know that following normal rules I won't be reimbursed so I'll call it a bug, also because it sounds way cooler".
Not saying that this is the case here ofcourse.
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NereSky
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
My point was mostly that people classify everything as a bug even though most of the time it isn't, if it's a REAL problem then yes I can understand. However most of the time "bug" is short for "I made a mistake or know that following normal rules I won't be reimbursed so I'll call it a bug, also because it sounds way cooler".
Not saying that this is the case here ofcourse.
Yeah its a bug - ive tested it in game ive convo'd people i know that are in a position to decide if its a bug or not and they are looking into it (convo is unofficial and based on opinion of the person i s/w)
But my gripe is that the official word is 'as it doesnt show in the logs and the bug cannot be verified by those logs, then reimbursement isnt possible'
Wish i could trust a)the person who read the logs and b) whether these so called logs actually exist lol
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sliver 0xD
exiles.
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
I'll start with one of the main problems I have with the petition system is the Cookie Cutter, Copy + Paste responses, it's impersonal and it makes me feel like they haven't even read the petition. I assume this is because of the volume of petitions but I'd rather have to wait 2 weeks and have my petition fully explored than be passed off like that.
u hit it right on the spot!
realy anoys me. stop wasteing my time with stupid auto reply.
my return will be i want GM2!
i dont see how they dont trust players. it is like all players by default lie.
and i dont see how they can see the difrence, they never have anything in the logs.
to me when a gm says he looked in log that is a lie!
i think the op has put it all perfect. we need a change.
in my eyes all gm's are stupid, most only focus on nub questions.
kick the gm nubs they know nothing of the advanced game machanics. how can they help ?
next to that delete the policy. its only goal to NOT help anyone.
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Somebody needs a hug! |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:23:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 30/10/2008 14:25:39
@Neresky
Well if it's a real bug/work around then obviously CCP will stay silent till they have an official stance/answer on it. Either they will declare it an exploit or they'll fix it. So I'm guessing if it's something real there'll be working on it soonÖ
I'd suggest keeping it low till there's an official stance on it and then reopen the petition.
@above poster; don't quit elementary school just yet.
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sliver 0xD
exiles.
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: NereSky
Originally by: Tzar'rim
My point was mostly that people classify everything as a bug even though most of the time it isn't, if it's a REAL problem then yes I can understand. However most of the time "bug" is short for "I made a mistake or know that following normal rules I won't be reimbursed so I'll call it a bug, also because it sounds way cooler".
Not saying that this is the case here ofcourse.
Yeah its a bug - ive tested it in game ive convo'd people i know that are in a position to decide if its a bug or not and they are looking into it (convo is unofficial and based on opinion of the person i s/w)
But my gripe is that the official word is 'as it doesnt show in the logs and the bug cannot be verified by those logs, then reimbursement isnt possible'
Wish i could trust a)the person who read the logs and b) whether these so called logs actually exist lol
i find it a bit disturbing that you have a special hotline. and i have to wait 3 weeks for my pos to be put online again.
but if bugs are reported in logs then why would u put it in the log ? why not fix the bug directly.
and heres another thing your special hotline should think about.
when you get a session change message at the gate. what does this mean ?
what i know is that it doesnt mean iam in a que or not in jump range.
and who sends me the message ? becouse i expect this message to come form the server.
but ALL gm's tell me this message does not show in there logs.
but i still see it for 50 times on my screen.
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Somebody needs a hug! |
sliver 0xD
exiles.
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:37:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 30/10/2008 14:25:39
@Neresky
Well if it's a real bug/work around then obviously CCP will stay silent till they have an official stance/answer on it. Either they will declare it an exploit or they'll fix it. So I'm guessing if it's something real there'll be working on it soonÖ
I'd suggest keeping it low till there's an official stance on it and then reopen the petition.
@above poster; don't quit elementary school just yet.
tho i write in over 20 programing languages i cant get a handle on the english and dutch :)
2 for english 10 for math :) hey i got a average 6 :p iam passing skoool. :P
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Somebody needs a hug! |
NereSky
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.30 14:49:00 -
[27]
The T20 saga actually did more harm than people realise, not harm to CCP in general but relations between CCP and players,
The bad press and that kutsagemon (spelt wrong i know) scared CCP into pulling away from the player base, they stopped reimbursing almost overnight in fear of allegations of favouritism - they created a 'internal affairs dept' which lets be honest is more of a public relations stunt and remains firmly 'internal'
Almost all of the people that worked with CCP stopped talking and socialising with the player base almost overnight with only a very few still talking on a rare accassion,
The goons as well have contributed by their threadnoughts and petitions en-masse
What ive mentioned above has had direct effect in how CCP interacts with the players with removal of Aura etc
There has been quite a few meetings ivolving senior members of CCP end result they have pulled back away and staying at a respectable distance from the players in a way dehumanising themselves.
Most of what ive just posted has resulted in the way petitions/bugs are handled.
I try to see and understand the Gm's/Devs p.o.v and tbh they are damned if they do and damned if they dont, and now have the inability to interact with the playerbase and make decisions in grey areas.
Its because of allegations they im sure have decided not to re-imburse ship loss, all in a attempt to appear beyond reproach,
I think they have also shifted funding away from the dept that deals with petitions to other areas, this has caused Gm's who deal with petitions seemingly appear unknowledgable as to game mechanics or even have no knowledge at all whence the cut paste replys.
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DezAffinity Alt
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So, what 'bug' did you lose your ship to then?
I had just killed something in low-sec, then I went to a safespot for over 15 minutes while my timers were done. Jumped into high-sec and was attacked by the Navy. For some reason I still had aggression to them even though all timers were up and the thing that gave me the timer in the first place was over 15 minutes ago. Nothing could have renewed it since either, no docking, etc.
Then there is the bug where you are stuck on JUMPING but because it doesn't actually load, you die.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:17:00 -
[29]
DEV interaction (in whatever way) will forever be a double edged sword, you can not escape that in a competitive game like EVE. EVE players by default are a riley bunch, call it natural selection gamewise. In short; as a group we're a bunch of f*cks all too happy to stir up crap, although there are different levels on that ofcourse, so we're not exactly Hello Kitty Online players. So while I can understand CCP (having to) distance themselves from the playerbase for a number of valid reasons I don't think it links to their reimbursement policies.
It's very simple; if a loss can not be tied to a factual problem on their side (that exludes internet, routing and whatnot) then they won't reimburse. Also, if one chose to get all his friends and want to punch a bunch of other guys on the nose, you can expect problems. You chose to go there, you run the risk of losing a ship.
If there's lag that means there's a communication problem, that means that their logs won't show what actually happened and thus you can't/won't confirm it to be a problem on their side. Bit simplistic but you have to practical at some point. I really don't see the problem with it but then I choose to stay away from 0.0 (blobs), and lag is one of the reasons so I do understand the frustration.
Them reallocating resources is something that has been worrying me for a while now but I don't think it's because of 'percieved DEV favouritism'.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DezAffinity Alt
Originally by: Tzar'rim
So, what 'bug' did you lose your ship to then?
I had just killed something in low-sec, then I went to a safespot for over 15 minutes while my timers were done. Jumped into high-sec and was attacked by the Navy. For some reason I still had aggression to them even though all timers were up and the thing that gave me the timer in the first place was over 15 minutes ago. Nothing could have renewed it since either, no docking, etc.
Then there is the bug where you are stuck on JUMPING but because it doesn't actually load, you die.
Your first thing IS a bug (one I know of and experienced myself), your second is NOT a bug. It's a problem (who's is undetermined) but certainly not a bug.
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