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Eve's equivalent of gold?

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Danae Ori	Posted - 2008.10.30 14:53:00 - [1] So I'm looking for an inflation-proof store of value for my isk. I was thinking of converting my isk into basic minerals as they are needed for almost all forms of construction, but realised that minerals suffer the same problem from isk in that there is virtually a limitless supply of them (asteroids respawn everyday, reprocessing from mission loot etc). On top of that, minerals suffer from macro-mining, the same mechanism behind isk inflation. Second possibility is ammo, which is somewhat more constrained by the finite number of manufacturing slots and time required to manufacture them. I suspect the price of ammo to be relatively stable as well, and ammo is in universal demand throughout the Eve universe. The only problem is liquidating vast amounts of ammo... Third possibility is datacores. Only a finite amount can be produced per day. But I haven't really done researching/inventing before so I'm not sure on how essential datacores are to the economy. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.30 15:06:00 - [2] Rather challenging topic; remember seeing this discussed a few times before. The hard part comes from CCP's way of increasing efficiency constantly, leading to deflation more than inflation. That is, in order for most peopel to feel advacement, it will be easier and easier to reach some base things (like Battleship). So although there is no inflation on basic supplies, person having status of 'wealthy' in 2005 has difficulties maintaing that status for years without activity -> this is very hard to avoid. One way might be to have diverse portfolio of best rare items from many classes. Stash invested on best (officer) smartbombs, repairers, shield mods etc etc in 2005 would probably have maintained your 'wealthy' status. -Lasse with less-meaningful stack of cash
Nexus Kinnon Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.10.30 15:27:00 - [3] I expect things like officer cap rechargers would hold their value quite well in years to come.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.30 15:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Ricdic on 30/10/2008 15:35:40 The inflation proof best store of value for your isk is your personal wallet...
Elder Langley	Posted - 2008.10.30 16:49:00 - [5] Originally by: Ricdic Edited by: Ricdic on 30/10/2008 15:35:40 The inflation proof best store of value for your isk is your personal wallet... As far as I know, there is only deflation in the markets. So keeping a large sum of isk in isk equals a greater purchasing power in the future than trading that in for a precious item (gold like) or a commodity. Also a low interest banks account will give your assets a boost if you are planning leaving the game for some time, provided the bank exist when you return.
Jaarlax Ratty Corp PLC Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.10.30 16:54:00 - [6] Larger T1 bpos ,might be an idea, you should be able to resell them for at least purchace price, especialy if you dump them in a lab for a bit first
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.30 17:03:00 - [7] It's not inflation you have to worry about, it's future nerfs. If it wasn't for nerfs then any commodity not likely to ever be produced again would do it. E.g., tech 2 BPOs or Guardian Vexor. However, mix nerfs into the equation and all bets are off. Same thing goes for ammo. Devs can change the universe to make e.g. missiles not practical and suddenly you're sitting on inventory with value of reprocessed minerals only. Your analysis of datacore limitations is flawed. If it becomes profitable or necessary to use more than the current supply the number of characters generating them can grow without bounds. It takes about 2 months per character slot to create a datacore generator. In addition, datacore prices are tied intimately to the cost of t2 production (read: moon minerals). Your exposure is not only module nerfs, but production nerfs and unrelated commodity nerfs. The only way to safeguard your ISK is to diversify, keep up with patch notes and move quickly.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.30 17:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Danae Ori basic minerals as they are needed for almost all forms of construction, but realised that minerals suffer the same problem from isk in that there is virtually a limitless supply of them (asteroids respawn everyday, reprocessing from mission loot etc). On top of that, minerals suffer from macro-mining, the same mechanism behind isk inflation. Hmm, I didn't realize "macro-mining" is a MECHANISM behind inflation. You probably meant one of the causes of. Still, as long as the insurance system is in place, minerals (as a combined whole) can't possibly go below a certain value, and with minerals (especially the lower-endians) it's all about LOCATION when you're talking price. Quote: Second possibility is ammo, which is somewhat more constrained by the finite number of manufacturing slots and time required to manufacture them. I suspect the price of ammo to be relatively stable as well, and ammo is in universal demand throughout the Eve universe. The only problem is liquidating vast amounts of ammo... Ammo is worth whatever the minerals used are worth plus whatever people feel like is an appropriate compensation for factory time. The more people enter the manufacture business, the less that factory time is worth. If the time is worth above a certain value however, it might become profitable to activate more alts (fueled by GTCs) to do manufacture. So, no, really, I don't see ammo rising in price any time soon, just like I don't see minerals as a whole rising in price any time soon (other than the inevitable post-patch spikes, that is). Quote: Third possibility is datacores. Only a finite amount can be produced per day. But I haven't really done researching/inventing before so I'm not sure on how essential datacores are to the economy. You mean, a finite amount per agent per PLAYER. And the fun part, it doesn't even have to be an active player, as inactive accounts get RP constantly (and hence, datacores once they reactivate shortly) Quote: Any thoughts or suggestions? IF you have a reason to think invention will NOT be boosted any time soon, and also IF you believe T2 BPOs won't be converted to BPCs any time soon, then maybe, just maybe T2 BPOs might prove to be an interesting investment. Of course, it's probably not going to be a very profitable investment unless you also use them to manufacture from while you keep them as "store of value", and their value will plummet if any of the above "ifs" gets questioned, so it might be a risky investment too. Also, deadspace/officer modules MIGHT be a good investment... but then again, a nerf could easily make their value plummet, so you would have to keep an eye out and always be a step ahead of actual developements. There is no SAFE inflation-proof item. It's all tied with game developements, which can't be totally predicted. The only safe (but not inflation-proof) store of value is your own wallet, in form of raw ISK. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
small chimp	Posted - 2008.10.30 17:19:00 - [9] its not the inflation. its the deflation! and it makes me so angyr
Danae Ori	Posted - 2008.10.30 17:20:00 - [10] Okay, so it seems to me that Eve is more prone to price-deflation than inflation. I assume this is because the amount of materials in-game is expanding greater than isk supply?
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.10.30 17:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Akita T ... And the fun part, it doesn't even have to be an active player, as inactive accounts get RP constantly (and hence, datacores once they reactivate shortly) I am extremely surprised ccp is allowing this. How long before this to stops? BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.10.30 18:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Akita T ... And the fun part, it doesn't even have to be an active player, as inactive accounts get RP constantly (and hence, datacores once they reactivate shortly) I am extremely surprised ccp is allowing this. How long before this to stops? Not very long I would imagine. My guess is they care little about at the moment much how they handled Ghost training. It was an issue, but low on the radar of fixes.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.30 18:36:00 - [13] There is no equivalent to gold in the Eve economy. But maybe GTCs or high skill point characters.
Malkavian Spirit Minmatar Caldari Illuminati	Posted - 2008.10.30 19:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Tasko Pal There is no equivalent to gold in the Eve economy. But maybe GTCs or high skill point characters. I'm not sure how you'd buy GTCs with ISK and be able to resell them later. And characters end up with diminishing returns after about 50 million skill points.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.30 20:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Malkavian Spirit Originally by: Tasko Pal There is no equivalent to gold in the Eve economy. But maybe GTCs or high skill point characters. I'm not sure how you'd buy GTCs with ISK and be able to resell them later. And characters end up with diminishing returns after about 50 million skill points. You'd buy GTCs with cash.
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.30 21:01:00 - [16] Edited by: Clair Bear on 30/10/2008 21:01:32 Originally by: Tasko Pal You'd buy GTCs with cash. Oh, if it's RW currency we're bringing into the mix here... There are plenty of inflation resistant investment strategies you could use to safeguard value of RW money, and only turn currency into ISK when needed. High SP character is a brilliant idea. That's probably as nerfproof as anything in eve gets. You don't have to keep training it, just hold on to it and use it if profitable. It'll cost you RW $ to cash out though.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.30 23:00:00 - [17] You know, Hexxx and I discussed at length about the concept of both a 'Gold Standard' and commodities in general so that EBANK could effectively use a commodity as a different currency, and essentially perform the same kind of hedge trading between commodities and ISK as foreign exchange trading is. However, we figured after a fair while that the mineral market (and salvage parts and moon goo too) are still too naive for this kind of stuff, as you do need certain fundamentals in place. However, if a solution to a Gold Standard for EVE or proper commodities exchange and/or forex trading is something that might (I'm not saying it is) be interesting for EVE. Another thought was 'What if ISK was abolished and in place we had each faction (Minmatar / Gallente / Amarr / Crapdari) having their own currencies with exchange rates.' In addition to this all modules say MWD's, had a factional root, so while the Minnie MWD's would be the best, you could also buy a Gallente one, which wouldn't be as good but purchasable in Gallente currency. Just putting this all out as a talking point, not saying these are ideas that'd go anywhere... Chairman \| www.eve-bank.net
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.10.31 03:34:00 - [18] Interesting idea with the varied currency. We don't have the level of population to support it, but it is an interesting idea.
Dragonz Fire The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:43:00 - [19] loool? since when is deflation a BAD thing? Deflation is freaking AWESOME. Things become cheaper and cheaper every year. Meaning that I am able to buy MORE stuff with my money instead of less. It is often said that deflation in an economy means that the economy is healthy. While inflation is quite the opposite as you can see here: Deflation! The difference between gold in RL and minerals in eve is huge. because gold in real life is finite. The gold supply curve is perfectly inelastic (basically a vertical line). Once all world's gold is mined, there won't be anymore to mine. However minerals in eve will always be there to mine. Asteroid belts respawn. And so there is not a finite amount of minerals in the eve universe.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.31 20:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Dragonz Fire loool? since when is deflation a BAD thing? Deflation is freaking AWESOME. Things become cheaper and cheaper every year. Meaning that I am able to buy MORE stuff with my money instead of less. It is often said that deflation in an economy means that the economy is healthy. While inflation is quite the opposite as you can see here: Deflation! The difference between gold in RL and minerals in eve is huge. because gold in real life is finite. The gold supply curve is perfectly inelastic (basically a vertical line). Once all world's gold is mined, there won't be anymore to mine. However minerals in eve will always be there to mine. Asteroid belts respawn. And so there is not a finite amount of minerals in the eve universe. Deflation caused the great depression...I wouldn't call that a good thing. I would say characters are somewhat inflation-indexed, as are GTC codes (although you can't really save these...you can buy them now if your ISK is otherwise going to sit). If you're willing to shuffle your inventory around I would get a variety of top named items. Also ultra-rare items might work...since their price probably approximates some fixed percentage of the ISK that the 10-20 richest people in EVE have.
John Agrippa	Posted - 2008.10.31 22:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Khrillian Deflation caused the great depression... Deflation was a symptom, not a cause, I believe. Deflation was caused by a contraction of credit. Credit was contracting for other reasons, the reasons that led to the depression. We had deflation from 1875 to 1896, and while there were hard times mixed in there I think we did grow during some of that. Deflation doesn't have to be some horrible thing if it's expected. Especially here in game-world, I don't see why it's a bad thing at all. Just don't hold inventory for long periods of time and things are peachy. I think I agree with Hexx. Either keep it in your wallet, or dump it in E-BANK -- or Dynasty, but they don't have the established history yet.
Cheopis Ardishapur Ammunition and More	Posted - 2008.11.01 09:00:00 - [22] Buy stocks in corps that have been very dependable in distributing dividends, for a long time. Try to get stocks in a variety of corps that meet the above requirements. Diversify.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.01 09:59:00 - [23] Originally by: John Agrippa Originally by: Khrillian Deflation caused the great depression... Deflation was a symptom, not a cause, I believe. Deflation was caused by a contraction of credit. Credit was contracting for other reasons, the reasons that led to the depression. We had deflation from 1875 to 1896, and while there were hard times mixed in there I think we did grow during some of that. Deflation doesn't have to be some horrible thing if it's expected. Especially here in game-world, I don't see why it's a bad thing at all. Just don't hold inventory for long periods of time and things are peachy. I think I agree with Hexx. Either keep it in your wallet, or dump it in E-BANK -- or Dynasty, but they don't have the established history yet. If the fed had expanded the money supply following the stock market crash the depression wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad. In a game world inflation/deflation doesn't really matter...since there's no real "growth," most of the game prices/behavior is just a function of CCP's decisions, and the only thing that's really scarce is player time.
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.11.01 10:48:00 - [24] Put it on EBANK and demand intrest higher then inflation, whatever % that might be. Although I wonder if EBANK is able to pay intrest of trillions if they haven't enough loans... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.11.01 17:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Danae Ori So I'm looking for an inflation-proof store of value for my isk. I was thinking of converting my isk into basic minerals as they are needed for almost all forms of construction, but realised that minerals suffer the same problem from isk in that there is virtually a limitless supply of them (asteroids respawn everyday, reprocessing from mission loot etc). Game Time Cards a.k.a. GTCs or ETCs.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.02 06:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Confuzer Put it on EBANK and demand intrest higher then inflation, whatever % that might be. Inflation? How do you measure that?
Sanguis Sanies Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.02 07:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Danae Ori So I'm looking for an inflation-proof store of value for my isk. Have You tried NPC trade goods like: uranium, diary products, Holoreels, etc. since there price is constant then if you buy 10 mil of them now you can sell the 10 mil at the same price later, the only problem I see with this is that depending on how much money you have it may take a while for you to convert ISK to stock as there is only a (set) finite amount each DT, so it may take a few DT's to finish the job ._.. ._ .._ __. .... .. _. __. __ ._ _. Desu Sigs
Proxay Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2008.11.02 14:00:00 - [28] Officer Smartbombs, Cap Rechargers, Cap Power Relays, Generally anything that is spawned rarely, and dies a lot, and is constant demand. We don't recruit anyone, go away.
dr doooo	Posted - 2008.11.02 14:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Heikki One way might be to have diverse portfolio of best rare items from many classes. Stash invested on best (officer) smartbombs, repairers, shield mods etc etc in 2005 would probably have maintained your 'wealthy' status. -Lasse with less-meaningful stack of cash I put most of my isk in best deadspace mods early 2006 when I took a break from trading. Some of the stuff like gistii a type small shield boosters/MWD's had gone up by 8 or 900% when I sold in 2008. That was due to the introduction of exploration though, and where/when they dropped. I can't think of anything that hadn't gone up in price significantly though. The more high end the module, the bigger the price increase generally was. For example, Gist x-type mods had generally more than doubled in price, where as say Gist c-types had often hardly gone up at all. So yea, I recon higher end mods will, on average, be pretty inflation proof, but I don't think you are going to see price increases in the next few years that match those of the last few years. Putting together a diverse portfolio of best officer mods is also going to require a serious amount of isk these days. A best deadspace LAR, for example, is going to cost you 1bill?+ these days, so god knows how much best officer is atm.
The Slagh	Posted - 2008.11.02 15:00:00 - [30] T2 BPOs I'd think. Other than that, isk.

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