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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 100 post(s) |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
   |
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nice one...
Just remember, some of us do LOAN isk out to others, and I have given out bazillions out in the past. I can see false positives come about with this and GM's refusing to talk to you because you have had that tag applied. I know my account has had more than one tag applied (AND REMOVED) but as of yet I dont think RMT or Botting was one of them. Grimmi refuses to talk to me these days so god knows if he removed it all.
The main problem is that CCP doesnt make it easy enough for people wishing to take part in RMT to know they can do it with TimeCodes. I seen some users one day talking about buying isk (was a few years ago) and they were complaining about how much it would cost and it was more expensive than time codes!... When I suggesed it to them they didnt know how it worked. In all fairness it was a long while ago and CCP hadnt been selling isk for that long.
Open up your doors to people wanting to buy isk and explain to them how to do it. The buyers are the ones who enable these markets to continue.
In the past when escrow was around it was easy to spot isk sellers. These days it's not as transparent. I think some guys still do it via contracts by selling gear at a hugely overpriced rate, or selling it at a huge undervalued rate (so the person buying can then profit on the trade). You will probably never stamp it out, but making the users who want to buy isk more arware of the TimeCode is the best solution. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Regarding the loans.
Secured loans are an easy fix.
Add a contract section for Loans. Sadly CCP tried this but as it wasnt combat related it was utter shite.... Much like the auction system of contracts are.
There's a lot of key things ccp has not fixed that are things that isk sellers are no doubt using.
Adding a Secure Loan (Where the game holds all ITEMS in Escrow until the loan is repaid according to terms) would mean that all of my loans are 100% secure. On top of that it would remove any risk that someone will use this method for transferring goods from char to char.
Getting rid of the trade window (Hello private contracts, derrrr) is a no-brainer; but again, CCP has left this system in place for so long now that you have to question why it's there.
Character trades should have the same SecureTrading system that SecureGTC uses.. Character to CHARACTER and not requring users to supply account names (How dumb is that??). The isk should be held in escrow for say 24 hours after the deal is done (this would KILL character scamming and also add a lot of hassle those who manage to steal account details, with the plus side of hiding the account name making account details more secure).. For anyone who wants to know my account name might be something like mephysto_luvsme_even_tho_he_says_no .....
What also happens when (like recently) my pal who was on military deployment had his account hacked. I am sure that it was a breach of his email due to the fact that they logg'd into more than one of his accounts, but his isk would have been moved off for RMT, does this mean he's now under a perm ban and will never be able to return?... |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:DeODokktor wrote:Adding a Secure Loan (Where the game holds all ITEMS in Escrow until the loan is repaid according to terms) would mean that all of my loans are 100% secure. And also 100% pointless, since if I can allow you to hold on to items worth what you're loaning me then I can just sell those items on the market myself (other than rigged ships, I suppose) and get the money.
Items sold on the market are done so at a loss.
Also, Blueprints, UltraRare Items (currently being removed by CCP cause they are confused), Limited Items, and large bulks of items are not ideal things to sell. For some users who only deal with basic market items then I guess selling is the best option, some of us go well in excess of the limits of the ibis. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Shandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site. Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK. That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them.
Nice, Another dev in charge of something who doesnt know of the mechanisms that the game has in play to support "Legal RMT".
Lets hope he didnt ban every player from feb/march who traded GTC for ISK via the forums ;P... |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be.
:edit: and always has been
The game doesnt have mechanics in place for loans, hence the need for us to go about it outside the mechanics.
We have the omlett now, give us the eggs.
Of course, it's not your area, it's not the area of anyone else either, it falls into that "make a suggestion and if it is good for combat we'll take it to an internal board and think about it" group.
Your not the one to push for this change, but you are the one who will have to deal with the fact that trading/sharing/loaning does take place in eve because there are missing mechanisms. If your all about detecting bots then I would go with ya in saying that my argument is moot. If your going to focus on RMT then it's not moot.
I think a few people are just looking for you to say that your not going to screw them over because they have helped out (or been helped out) indirectly by someone who has,does, or will take part in RMT.
I for one was once banned because a RMT'er was giving out free stuff in amarr, Opening trade windows and putting stuff in them and clicking Okay. You see a 300m item in a trade window with a green check and you are inclinded to accept it, a GM banned me (and a lot of other people) and gave me a warning that I should never for the rest of my eve life accept anything for less than what it's worth. To this day I can say that I think he was an Idiot when it comes to how he viewed that (my ban was undone, but going by his view if I purchase something on market for 10% of it's value I should be banned). Devs have often taken their own ideas and ran (leaped) into something without themselves knowing all of the mechanics in play. Sure, you cant outline every situation, but knowing that corps or alliances could be destroyed by Botters/RMT'ers in your group is going to be really offputting. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well, I have about 50bn isk in non-secured loans out.
It's just going by his indications it seems that when I take payment for them (this month and next) that I will be expecting another ban, followed by a few days to a couple of weeks of me having this argument with GM's. I dont think my loans are out to RMT'ers or BOT'ers but how do I know that projects I am funding will not fall foul of some script he runs.
Would I give isk up to someone who is just going to go do botting, no, durrrr.
But to know that yet another someone inside ccp is setting script triggers based on movement of things that may be valid, well, it just makes me sad. He cant help that there's no mechanism in place - he could help, he could complain to the team that deals with that area of design. GM's complain about workload, we give solutions that would reduce workload. How a DEV can say that helping to raise a solution or guideline for GM's or Design Teams to go over is not something in his area shows how much each section of ccp is now sharded. If he cared about his time he would point the problem to the design teams, If he gave two hoots about the GM's time then he would not just say that "Loans are not supported ... It is not my area .. I will ban you .. Speak to someone else".
Not saying he's a bad guy, Not saying that the game isnt in dire need of BOT detection, Not saying that RMT is a good thing.
I am saying that if he is going to be over the script routines that dictates when we get a ban (daily) then he needs to also have some responsibilty in pointing the erronious detections towards a team that can make sure they dont happen and put systems in place to make it so it no longer causes problems for such detections.
Now, if he wants to say that when I have 50bn isk transferred back to me (history shows a large sum going out previously) over the next few weeks that I have nothing to worry about then I can let the argument go. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 18:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. Actually, Sreegs is right. The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do.
Okay, GTC can not be sold for isk, Only ingame PLEX, I'll agree with ya...
CCP needs to shut down secure GTC trading as it is a figment of my imagination.
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DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
saiy'an wrote:hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.
how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal?
Unless you got them using a purchase order for say 100 isk per unit then it shouldnt matter.
What is interesting is that they are saying they are going to claw back the isk, if they are going to reverse transactions then that would be a bit odd for consumable or destroyed things.
Your question goes to show something simple, RMT'ers will use contracts and markets to wash the items that they move. If you have buy orders up for 1% of an items value and someone fills it and they happen to be an RMT'er then you might need to explain, as the DEV is not going to get into the fine details then we will not know for sure. I would say that normal day to day market transactions are 100% safe unless your orders are showing some serious sign's that your trying to wash product. Few of those orders get filled, and generally the guys who place those orders are known.
I will not pretend that there's a easy way to spot legit vs bot or legit vs rmt. The ingame mechanics allow for scamming, overselling and underselling. RMT'ers do sell ingame products now for a fraction of the real value (You can catch them from time to time) so I know it does go on. It will be down to a GM or DEV to figgure out if those orders were to wash product or if they were a legit type of scam.
In the old contract days I would place orders up that isk sellers would fill and then report them. When the contract system came along and they could do things "private" then the ability for me to steal their isk was removed.
Just buy from the market and dont worry about it. Bot minerals and RMT isk flows through the markets in so many ways that it is doubtful you can buy any manufactured product that doesnt have a tie to RMT or Bots.
I for one and all for getting rid of BOTS and RMT. I am also all for getting rid of CCP's manipulation of the PLEX consumption. I am also for game fixes that would help stop Bots and secure gameplay.
I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 21:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
If I asked you nicely once to stop lying and you didn't listen what am I to do?
Here's the difference. I have a question what is a butt? That's a question... I have a question 2000 pages of text ending in "so the market blah blah blah" is not a question. In short get out.
If you want me to "Get out" then you can opt to request for me to receive a ban for the forum for either a short or long vacation.
If you wish to be vindictive you could also request for me to receive a ban from the game itself.
My question (not in the post you quoted) was not 2,000 pages long, nor was it a lie, it was a question!
A lie would be something like.
"Devs instill everyone with confidence"
"Devs have never been caught cheating"
"Devs give useful answers to questions every time they are asked"
Also, I quit replying to you once you gave a semi-answer to the question.
If too much text makes things difficult for you to cope with then we can make flow charts with pictures for you next time.
-Deo |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 23:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:
RMT = real life theft.
Get it through your skulls - this isn't metagaming. It is a RL crime. Knowingly buying or assisting in the trafficking of stolen goods is also a RL crime - and you can be prosecuted (yeah, even in China). Claiming that you unknowingly bought or assisted in the trafficking of stolen goods still means that all such goods and profits from such goods may be seized without any reimbursement or consideration. So, in short, yes, you are always personally culpable to some degree, whether your involvement was accidental or premeditated - and irregardless of the degrees of separation between you and the original thief (ask the major museums about this).
RMT is not real life theft, nor is it "Illegal".
Legally Liable and Illegal are two completly differnt things.
If RMT was illegal then CCP wouldnt take part (In selling time codes for ISK).
If RMT was illegal then we would see sites selling gold/isk/virtual items shut down.
If RMT was overly harmful and ccp could track down the users then they could seek finacial damages. A few games in the past have been destroyed by botting but other than Blizzard I am not sure any other company has taken legal action. |
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