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Marduke VonHaskell
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.12 13:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:While I appreciate the enthusiastic optimism of your reply, it does not address the fact that all those tasked at reimbursing ships (see Goonswarm reimburser post in the security thread) and everybody who sells something could be affected. There's more than ten nerds in EvE who sell capital BPOs and similar. ROFL I'm sure there is great concern that alliance SRPs will be used as a cover for RMT...80m at a time...all within one alliance. Get a grip. The issue is that a "loan system" is actually a VERY good cover for people transferring huge sums of ISK between nominal strangers for nothing in return. Again, nothing has actually happened, and if you're truly concerned about getting falsely flagged for dealing with RMTers, then stop exchanging huge sums of ISK with strangers. Very simple.
Yeah. That's just what any economy needs- MORE problems securing funds to finance investment.
You never took an econ class, eh? |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
212
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Posted - 2012.04.12 14:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Marduke VonHaskell wrote:Yeah. That's just what any economy needs- MORE problems securing funds to finance investment.
The Eve economy works absolutely fine without a capital market.
Marduke VonHaskell wrote:You never took an econ class, eh?
Unless you have a phd, more than you; and even if you had a phd, I probably have more professional experience with fundamental theory, which is what is most relevant here. |
Marduke VonHaskell
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.12 18:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:
The Eve economy works absolutely fine without a capital market.
I guess that's why the forums aren't inundated with topics about loan offers, bond sales, etc, and stock isn't bought & sold at all. Hell, the BSACSE doesn't even exist, and no corporation ever funds their operations by borrowing, selling bonds, or selling stock.
Wanna try that again?
Darth Tickles wrote: Unless you have a phd, more than you; and even if you had a phd, I probably have more professional experience with fundamental theory, which is what is most relevant here.
Right. And I bet you're the queen of Amarr, too.
I don't care what your credentials are. Trying to argue that a functioning capital market doesn't contribute to economic growth is idiotic. Trying to argue that there is no capital market in Eve is simply contrary to actual reality. Trying to argue that inhibiting the market for loans will have no detrimental effects just screams "I have no idea what I'm talking about!"
You don't like RMTs? Fine, but a 'scorched earth' policy in dealing with them isn't going to help the situation. You don't want to cause more damage in the process. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
190
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Posted - 2012.04.12 18:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:
According to some of the latest botter tears CCP has been giving out permabans on botting. Something about the two week bans not getting the point across.
I think the more rational explanation is they were involved in RMT, or their attempts to launder the ISK made it look that way. |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
220
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Marduke VonHaskellI wrote: guess that's why the forums aren't inundated with topics about loan offers, bond sales, etc, and stock isn't bought & sold at all. Hell, the BSACSE doesn't even exist, and no corporation ever funds their operations by borrowing, selling bonds, or selling stock.
So because the forum has loan topics means the Eve economy doesn't function perfectly well without a capital market?
That's your argument?
I love it when morons double down on their stupid comments. |
Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
42
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Posted - 2012.04.12 19:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
It is scams they need to ban, not loans. Did anyone else notice that when Bad Bobby pulled his scam, not one single victim complained? Not one. Hmm.
A fake scam is probably a good way to get an RMT transaction going - however it is surely scams that they need to ban, not loans? As any and all of the scams out there could be RMT. |
Marduke VonHaskell
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:
So because the forum has loan topics means the Eve economy doesn't function perfectly well without a capital market
That's your argument
I love it when morons double down on their stupid comments.
I find it telling that the so-called Ph.D. replies to an argument with insults. And no, that wasn't my argument. My arguments were:
A.) Your claim that Eve functions well without a capital market was either false, as Eve clearly has a capital market at this time, or unsupported, as you're apparently referring to a time period or supporting logic you've failed to cite.
B.) Your criteria, "functions perfectly well", is subjective and can have many different meanings (Does it mean that economic growth is at its maximum potential, that capital development/spending still occurs at a "moderate" (another subjective term) rate, or just that trade occurs at all?).
C.) Assuming you meant the first two meanings I mentioned, it's obviously false as a well-functioning capital market allows unused resources to be put to investment, which leads to greater economic development then there would be otherwise. If it didn't, there likely wouldn't be ANY trades or sales of bonds/stock, and a greatly reduced market for loans.
D.) I don't care if you've won 387 Nobel Prizes and written 8 books that redefined modern economics. A bad argument is a bad argument. The fact that you've thus far tried to hide behind insults, baseless assertions, and apparently false credentials says volumes about your contribution to this topic, troll.
Is this enough for you to understand what I'm saying, or do I need to use smaller words & shorter sentences? |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
222
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
Marduke VonHaskell wrote:A.) Your claim that Eve functions well without a capital market was either false, as Eve clearly has a capital market at this time, or unsupported, as you're apparently referring to a time period or supporting logic you've failed to cite.
Eve functions without a capital market. That's it. End of discussion.
By your logic, the Eve economy can't function without rifters because rifters exist in the Eve economy and the Eve economy functions with rifters in it.
What goes on here is absolutely and completely inconsequential to the functioning of the Eve market. Furthermore, limiting the ability to impact bots and rmt for the sake of an infinitesimal, inconsequential, and insignificant "capital market" (I loathe to even apply that term to what goes on here) is a terrible exchange as far as the overall health of the Eve economy is concerned. Protecting a practice that has zero significant impact on the Eve economy at the cost of rmt and botting enforcement which have a huge impact on the Eve economy is sheer headupown ass stupidity.
I hope you're not done making yourself look the fool yet, and I look forward to more walls of text that I won't read.
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Marduke VonHaskell
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.12 20:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Marduke VonHaskell wrote:A.) Your claim that Eve functions well without a capital market was either false, as Eve clearly has a capital market at this time, or unsupported, as you're apparently referring to a time period or supporting logic you've failed to cite. Eve functions without a capital market. That's it. End of discussion By your logic, the Eve economy can't function without rifters because rifters exist in the Eve economy and the Eve economy functions with rifters in it What goes on here is absolutely and completely inconsequential to the functioning of the Eve market. Furthermore, limiting the ability to impact bots and rmt for the sake of an infinitesimal, inconsequential, and insignificant "capital market" (I loathe to even apply that term to what goes on here) is a terrible exchange as far as the overall health of the Eve economy is concerned. Protecting a practice that has zero significant impact on the Eve economy at the cost of rmt and botting enforcement which have a huge impact on the Eve economy is sheer headupown ass stupidity I hope you're not done making yourself look the fool yet, and I look forward to more walls of text that I won't read.
Not quite able to address what I'm saying, eh?
I never said the Eve Economy would fall apart without the capital market. I said that the Eve Economy would function better and grow more quickly with a capital market than it would without. That's the point of stock & bond sales. The fact that stocks & bonds are sold at all indicates that this market is utilized for capital development, and thus economic growth, that otherwise wouldn't occur. This is true of any economy where you have savings.
Again, nobody is saying that RMT and bots shouldn't be a concern. However, eliminating the capital market while doing so removes one of Eve's big features (a functioning market economy), especially when it doesn't seem like a "scorched earth" policy is actually necessary. Are you seriously telling me that the only way to get RMTs and bots is to use methods that penalizes a significant number of innocent players?
Also, I hope you'll own up to lying about your credentials eventually. I'd hate to have your immaturity associated with my field. |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
223
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Marduke VonHaskell wrote:I never said the Eve Economy would fall apart without the capital market.
Marduke VonHaskell wrote:However, eliminating the capital market while doing so removes one of Eve's big features (a functioning market economy
lol which one is it?
The public "loaning" that goes on here has a negligible effect on the economy because it is infinitesimal in relative size. It could disappear tomorrow and there wouldn't even be a blip. Beyond its absolute insignificance, it is even more insignificant when weighed against the needs to combat rmt and botting.
That's it. You can hammer out 1000s of words in a desperate attempt to salvage your argument, but you'll only continue to make yourself look more and more stupid.
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Marduke VonHaskell
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.12 20:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:[quote=Marduke VonHaskell]I never said the Eve Economy would fall apart without the capital market.[/quote
[quote=Marduke VonHaskell]However, eliminating the capital market while doing so removes one of Eve's big features (a functioning market economy[/quote
lol which one is it
The public "loaning" that goes on here has a negligible effect on the economy because it is infinitesimal in relative size. It could disappear tomorrow and there wouldn't even be a blip. Beyond its absolute insignificance, it is even more insignificant when weighed against the needs to combat rmt and botting
That's it. You can hammer out 1000s of words in a desperate attempt to salvage your argument, but you'll only continue to make yourself look more and more stupid
A.) You're right. "Harms" or "inhibits" would probably have been a better word choice.
B.) So you admit now that there is a capital market?
You still insist on asserting that loaning is small compared to the overall economy & the impact of RMT. Care to show any figures on that?
The fact that honest loans have been caught in the crossfire atl indicates room for improvement. I find it hard to believe that the only recourse CCP can employ is one that has the potential to severly damage the loan market.
Protip: You'd probably be better off supporting your arguments with evidence and/or logic. Just flinging insults gets you nowhere. Then again, most of your posts seem to be little more than trolling, so maybe you don't intend to discuss this issue so much as get a rise out of people. |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
225
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
lol so i win
next time you should probably think before you come at someone on the forums, or you might end up looking stupid again
/me moonwalks out of thread |
Marduke VonHaskell
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:lol so i win
next time you should probably think before you come at someone on the forums, or you might end up looking stupid again
/me moonwalks out of thread
Not really. You made no attempt to support your arguments, while at the same time responding with almost entirely reassertion and insults. My points (which were primarily criticisms of your points) were actually well founded in logic & economic principles in spite of the one error you chose to make the centerpiece of your reply. If anyone else has the knee-jerk response that RMTers & bots are worth any price to combat, they'll (hopefully) make sure their arguments are better than yours.
I got to make my point, you got to spread chaos, and the off-hand chance that future comments will contribute more to the discussion? I love mutually beneficial exchanges. Hooray for capitalism!! =P |
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.04.13 18:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
As VV pointed out about Cosmoray it would be easy to get ensnared.
Rumour has it that he made a loan for a Nighthawk BPO, but paid "under market value" in the contract to account for 90% collateral value.
The person who received the loan was an active RMT'er, who then got banned, and Cosmoray's accounts with the main money/business and collateral holding toons got whacked for helping move RMT money. Total loss was over 400B ISK in assets and cash.
He also lost a good chunk of alliance assets he had a toon in. He sold his toons, gave what he could to the alliance (out of game friends were directors in alliance) and quit the game. |
Kira Vanachura
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
I must be blind, but I don't see any major problems. Don't accept that someone else pays off the loan. |
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