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Target painters still fail after web nerf.

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Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 31/10/2008 08:09:56 Hugsie/rapier with 720II vs interceptor (125 sig res with MWD; 3500 m/s; 18km orbit) Max skills for everything. Base chance to hit = 0% 60% web = 1.7% 51.56% TP ( =max possible TP effect) = 0% web + TP = 17% 2x web = 29.2% 2x TP = 0.1% Only somewhere between 47 and 48% base effect for a tech 2 TP does web + TP become better than 2x web.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:14:00 - [2] You could change to 425 AC's with barrage and falloff rigs and get 3x better tracking. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:16:00 - [3] Yes because 720'ies are known for their excellent tracking. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:16:00 - [4] Well, you should also consider missile damage apart from turret tracking in your calculations imho, as I could imagine that missiles with the new formula take more advantage from TP than turret tracking, or not?
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:25:00 - [5] Yes, let's shoot the fastest, most difficult to hit ship class in EVE with the single most cumbersome and slowest tracking guns we can fit on our ships, and deduce from that that target painters suck! The method is flawless!
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:27:00 - [6] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 31/10/2008 08:31:44 cough 425II, 2x falloff rig, barrage. Base chance to hit = 4.6% 60% web = 48.7% 51.56% TP ( =max possible TP effect) = 20.8% web + TP = 58.1% 2x web = 61.6% 2x TP = 36.5% Sorry guys/gals, but velocity has a much higher impact than sig res on the tracking formula. Use a TP with no ship bonus and the numbers collapse.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 31/10/2008 08:31:44 cough 425II, 2x falloff rig, barrage. Base chance to hit = 4.6% 60% web = 48.7% 51.56% TP ( =max possible TP effect) = 20.8% web + TP = 58.1% 2x web = 61.6% 2x TP = 36.5% Sorry guys/gals, but velocity has a much higher impact than sig res on the tracking formula. Use a TP with no ship bonus and the numbers collapse. Those numbers are already wayyyy better than the ones you originally posted, now do it again with 180'ies. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:35:00 - [8] Well, you are talking of oversized weapon systems used against their prey. It's cruiser weapons against frigate class ships. Also speed tank frigate class ship. Target Painters never were meant to be the new webbers imho, also TP gives more bonuses than just increasing your chance to hit for turrets or damage for missiles. It also makes the target to be locked faster and is useable from a much bigger range than webifiers. So direct comparing is not correct imho.
Kulmid The Bastards	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:47:00 - [9] now try with missiles You would think CCP would have added things like, "Amarr", "CCP", "Microwarpdrive", etc. to their forum dictionary.
Crove Tupperware Party	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:56:00 - [10] In related news, citadel torps don't adequately damage interceptors. Citadel torps are useless. More exciting conclusions to follow Inveniam viam aut faciam
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.10.31 09:26:00 - [11] you're all missing the point compleatly a single dooms day device can insta pop a cepter and they are the biggest guns in the game so it's blatently overpowered
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.10.31 09:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 31/10/2008 08:31:44 cough 425II, 2x falloff rig, barrage. Base chance to hit = 4.6% 60% web = 48.7% 51.56% TP ( =max possible TP effect) = 20.8% web + TP = 58.1% 2x web = 61.6% 2x TP = 36.5% Sorry guys/gals, but velocity has a much higher impact than sig res on the tracking formula. Use a TP with no ship bonus and the numbers collapse. Those numbers are much better, yes. Could I ask you to run a comparison for missiles (try heavies and heavy assaults)? If target painters fall short there too, it would be rather disappointing.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.31 10:45:00 - [13] Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 31/10/2008 10:46:00 Please, try to consider: Why are you trying to compare these two modules? They are completely different in their effect and purpose. The fact that they both help your guns and missiles hit doesnt mean that they are interchangeable and should be equal in this regard. Webber changes speed. TP changes signature radius of target. Where is it said that they should they boost your CTH equally when itstalled on arty-rapier shooting at interceptor? How about the fact that TP can be effective waaaay out there on any ship, while long-range web is a privelege of Rapier and Huggin? And why do you omit reverse effect? If you orbit a big webbed target in your Rapier, you can web it with 10 webifiers, but guns will still miss due to your own transversal. TP will increase your CTH regardless. Also, TPO and Web bonuses dont stack. What effect will TP+Web have in your example with Rapier? --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:34:00 - [14] Try to add say 2x that range, and check tracking / targeting then. 720 are not created to snipe interceptors at point blank range. /Riv
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Well, you are talking of oversized weapon systems used against their prey. It's cruiser weapons against frigate class ships. Also speed tank frigate class ship. Target Painters never were meant to be the new webbers imho, also TP gives more bonuses than just increasing your chance to hit for turrets or damage for missiles. It also makes the target to be locked faster and is useable from a much bigger range than webifiers. So direct comparing is not correct imho. I still don't understand this fetish for 'oversized' guns thats going on these days... When a ship whose only real role is anti-support, that has a web bonus AND a TP bonus and still can't quickly splat friggies... WHAT THE HELL ? If your in a frigate and you get double webbed and painted, you damn well should die.
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.10.31 12:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Well, you are talking of oversized weapon systems used against their prey. It's cruiser weapons against frigate class ships. Also speed tank frigate class ship. Target Painters never were meant to be the new webbers imho, also TP gives more bonuses than just increasing your chance to hit for turrets or damage for missiles. It also makes the target to be locked faster and is useable from a much bigger range than webifiers. So direct comparing is not correct imho. I still don't understand this fetish for 'oversized' guns thats going on these days... When a ship whose only real role is anti-support, that has a web bonus AND a TP bonus and still can't quickly splat friggies... WHAT THE HELL ? If your in a frigate and you get double webbed and painted, you damn well should die. if you're in an intercepter and you get doubled webbed and painted you do die even to battleship sized guns VERY quickly
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.31 15:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Gawain Hill Originally by: Katarlia Simov Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Well, you are talking of oversized weapon systems used against their prey. It's cruiser weapons against frigate class ships. Also speed tank frigate class ship. Target Painters never were meant to be the new webbers imho, also TP gives more bonuses than just increasing your chance to hit for turrets or damage for missiles. It also makes the target to be locked faster and is useable from a much bigger range than webifiers. So direct comparing is not correct imho. I still don't understand this fetish for 'oversized' guns thats going on these days... When a ship whose only real role is anti-support, that has a web bonus AND a TP bonus and still can't quickly splat friggies... WHAT THE HELL ? If your in a frigate and you get double webbed and painted, you damn well should die. if you're in an intercepter and you get doubled webbed and painted you do die even to battleship sized guns VERY quickly Not on the test server.... What TPaitners need is a MUCH larger rnge. They are the weakest of the primary ewar and evn so have a short range. Give them a rane close to ECM so they can help sniper and Tpaitners will be much more used by support fleets. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.31 16:17:00 - [18] I do not entirely get why Max OP'd this but the criticims are also juvenille. He is not suggesting that720s or 250 rails or big momma cannons should be able to hit with a TP all the time or any such rrandom bs that has been suggested. He is merely telling you that TPs are hailed as the new Mahiki (or was that Whiskey Mist now...) but they are not actually all that. Now don't be rude and say this is irrelevant because I saw a few bright sparks in the Game Dev threads suggesting the buff on the Hugin Rapier from painters would balance their nerf from webs. He is showing you that this is bullcrap. The half sane comment by Sokratez about returns with better base tracking guns is just that... after all dual 180s on a Rapier??? lol The only valid counter argument so far is that he might want to calculate the TP's effect not on his own guns (joke guns anyway) but on the missles of his gangm8s but that (a) is another story altogether and (b) the way missles are being oblivion nerfed might also end up irrelevant... Anyway the rest of you back off poor Max or I ll find you in game Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 16:38:00 - [19] Your example is founded on the false assumption that Target Painters are ment to help you hit smaller targets. They are not! They have a comparible effect to a gang tracking computer. Using your example, one would conclude that tracking computers are equally useless. Try reworking your example so that you are shooting at a target with a base 30-50% chance-to-hit, then see what a target painter does to improve your damage output.
sdthujfg	Posted - 2008.10.31 17:01:00 - [20] The painters are just fine. They got a boost with this patch and you're complaining? When will the rapier pilots stop whining already.
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.31 17:53:00 - [21] ^^ TP is not getting better, the other items that make you hit stuff better ( ie. webs) are getting worse. Can someone post the new missile damage formula and the stats for the missiles ? This is still something of a red herring since missiles are at best a secondary for minmatar. As Crellion said, my intention was to show the misguided notion that TP's might be worthwhile as being false. I'll run some tracking computer numbers later, but if my memory serves me right ( ran them a while ago) you wont get better effects from them. The effectiveness of web vs TP is still in a somewhat odd state. They both work for everyone shooting at the target. Web also has the benefit that you vastly reduce the oppo's options on the battlefield. Yes, webs have shorter range normally. But the thing is : at longer ranges you get less benefit from both equally. If one dominates combat so much that they're practically a required module for PvP ( as webs are and will be) and the other one is pretty much laughed at as an EWAR system.... well I think I can safely say then that TP's fail.
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 18:17:00 - [22] Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 31/10/2008 18:19:47 The point is that a single module should not take a target from untrackable to dead. That was the problem with webs: they gave an effective 900% bonus to tracking, that is 10x better tracking. Obviously that better than the 51.56% bonus provided by Target Painters, which is better than the 30% bonus provided by Tracking Computers. With the adjustments to speed, there is also an adjustment being made to webs. Instead of 900% bonus to tracking, they now give 150% bonus to tracking. Obviously still better than a TP or TC, but then its range is also more limited. I think that the new web stats puts it better in line with the other options, making them more appealing by comparision, as they are no longer going to be contrasted with the unreasonable effeciency of webs. Your Cruiser sized guns have 1/10th of the tracking of the same teir of frigate sized guns. Currently a single webber will make up that entire difference. Hitting a frigate with cruiser sized weapons is supposed to be hard. The game is being rebalanced to keep it that way. If you want to hit a frigate, then use frigate sized guns.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.10.31 18:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 31/10/2008 08:31:44 cough 425II, 2x falloff rig, barrage. Base chance to hit = 4.6% 60% web = 48.7% 51.56% TP ( =max possible TP effect) = 20.8% web + TP = 58.1% 2x web = 61.6% 2x TP = 36.5% Sorry guys/gals, but velocity has a much higher impact than sig res on the tracking formula. Use a TP with no ship bonus and the numbers collapse. Hrmm interesting, the numbers do show a huge difference between use of 2x webs and 2x TPs however difference between 2x web and 1xweb 1xTP is much smaller. Perhaps a boost to ~40% for TPs? although I think a TP should be more effective than a web from increasing hit chance in the tracking formula as it doesn't slow the other person down, whereas webs should be used to keep people within range. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.31 18:50:00 - [24] TBH if TP needs a fix I'd rather see better TP bonus for the ships that get it.
Shira Rayborn	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Max Hardcase TBH if TP needs a fix I'd rather see better TP bonus for the ships that get it. Yes lets overpower the rapier again, it's not like they were overused or anything pre patch.
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:30:00 - [26] Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 31/10/2008 19:30:36 Under the proper realistic conditions, a target painter will give a 50% to 150% bonus to effective DPS. The condition for which target painters are intended is when you are orbitting a target that is similar in size to your turrets at a speed that is between 70% slower and 40% faster than the tracking attribute of your turrets. It is not intended to allow you to sit still and try to swat small fast moving targets, like your example. Nor is it supposed to be useful for laying siege against a huge stationary target. Try using it for what it was intended to do, or is 50% to 150% more damage not enough of a bonus?
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:34:00 - [27] Angry much ? TP still allows you to flee, Web so limits you so much you are as good as dead. Thats why TP also fails compared to other EW systems. ECM and the oppo might as well be dead since he cant target anything. RSD and the oppo might as well be dead since he cant target anything/takes forever to target anything. TD and the oppo might as well be dead since he cant hit you (provided he uses turrets). TP and he might ( or might not) be dead sooner after shooting him. Joy. The heart of the matter is that this never came up since no one in their right mind uses TP on ships without a bonus ( since web is clearly superior there). And neither did they on ships that DO get the bonus since the ones that do get a bonus and are worthwhile flying ( aka huginn/rapier) get a bonus to web range. If the web nerf numbers stay the same it still wont change, as per my numbers. Fail.
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 31/10/2008 19:30:36 Under the proper realistic conditions, a target painter will give a 50% to 150% bonus to effective DPS. The condition for which target painters are intended is when you are orbitting a target that is similar in size to your turrets at a speed that is between 70% slower and 40% faster than the tracking attribute of your turrets. It is not intended to allow you to sit still and try to swat small fast moving targets, like your example. Nor is it supposed to be useful for laying siege against a huge stationary target. Try using it for what it was intended to do, or is 50% to 150% more damage not enough of a bonus? And the fun thing is, ships with a TP bonus can fit more than one of them. And you can combine that with tracking computers. Of course, I don't have to tell YOU that. There is a reason it's called PWNAGE. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 31/10/2008 19:42:52 Yes, Target Painters fail in solo combat. There are lots of better uses for your mid slot if your on your own. The same is true with alot of things. Remote reps don't help with solo setup and are rarely used on ships that don't have a bonus for them. That doesn't mean that they are broken. Try a senario where a target painter is intended to be used. Not one where you have pre-designed its failure. Originally by: Pac SubCom There is a reason it's called PWNAGE. Exactly!
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 19:45:00 - [30] Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 31/10/2008 19:46:23 Originally by: Max Hardcase Jethro; Web is still superior to TP in that scenario. Oversized target sig radii hardly matter for tracking purposes. transversal velocity is what dominates the tracking formula. You can web him to a stand still, putting another web on him won't help. You will still benefit from a target painter unless YOU stop moving. But then he can shoot back.

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