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Maxxamo Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.11.04 17:51:00 - [1] Greetings all, In all the orca threads, I cannot seem to find what the mineral requrements are to build it. Does anyone have a general idea? Thanks in advance! Chief of Staff & Diplomat Stormfront JUNTA
Maxxamo Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.11.04 17:59:00 - [2] Correction: I meant to ask the total mins for ALL components, and a rough estimate on ISK value.
Jeanna Anne	Posted - 2008.11.04 18:08:00 - [3] I remember Lord Fitz posting the actual minerals needed in one of the many Orca threads so you must have missed it. From a quick look in a thread on this page, I found the following cap parts: At me 0 Capital Capacitor Battery 9 Capital Cargo Bay 37 Capital Computer system 7 Capital Construction parts 15 Capital sensor Cluster 4 Capital Ship maintenance bay 7 from there you should be able to figure the rest.
Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve	Posted - 2008.11.04 18:43:00 - [4] price- amount-Type 2,97- 47.162.833 -Tritanium 4,29- 7.344.752 -Pyerite 23,40- 2.601.147 -Mexallon 60,18- 394.471- Isogen 117- 112.408- Nocxium 2650- 19.011-Zydine 3451- 7.209-Megacyte Build price at ME0:362.114.856isk I have build a sheet to calculate this and it will be released when the orca comes in game.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.05 11:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Dedaf price- amount-Type 2,97- 47.162.833 -Tritanium 4,29- 7.344.752 -Pyerite 23,40- 2.601.147 -Mexallon 60,18- 394.471- Isogen 117- 112.408- Nocxium 2650- 19.011-Zydine 3451- 7.209-Megacyte Build price at ME0:362.114.856isk I have build a sheet to calculate this and it will be released when the orca comes in game. Trit is going for almost 3.5 isk these days ;) So your estimate is a little low, you will have to pay more for the others if you want to get them from sell orders too, which is personally how I calculate, if you're putting up buy orders then you're making money from trade which shouldn't be counted as part of the build profit (given that there is a limit on how much you can get from such cheap buy orders). Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Jeanna Anne	Posted - 2008.11.05 13:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Lord Fitz Trit is going for almost 3.5 isk these days ;) So your estimate is a little low, you will have to pay more for the others if you want to get them from sell orders too, which is personally how I calculate, if you're putting up buy orders then you're making money from trade which shouldn't be counted as part of the build profit (given that there is a limit on how much you can get from such cheap buy orders). I get at least 388m at ME0 based on the current prices you can expect to pay if you wish to buy the minerals to build. At the moment the components are selling for well over that cost (some more than double). The surprise early patch date has caught a lot of people off guard and will push prices up from where they might otherwise be.[/quote Lord Fitz, You are very right about the early date catching some by suprise. Since I am relatively new (I have only been playing for 7 months now) and was told this would be a pre-Christmas patch I expected the patch to come some time in December, not early November! I have been following the costs of bpc's in contracts and the Capital parts bpc's that were costing 4.5M to 5M for a 5 run bpc are now going for 9.9M or more. I had to go to four different regions last night to get the bpc's (and actual capital parts where I could not find the bpc) in order to be able to build at least 3 orca's. I am not rich enough to be able to buy all the component bpo's, I have been saving up for the orca bpo and already have mined all the mins I need. I figure to sell the first two I make and keep the last with it being paid for with the profits from the first two. After that, my bpo will be copied once and then go in for 1 round of me research. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Do you expect the price of the orca to come down after about a month? I have no idea as to the price the ship will be selling for.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.05 13:59:00 - [7] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 05/11/2008 14:00:52 Originally by: Jeanna Anne Lord Fitz, You are very right about the early date catching some by suprise. Since I am relatively new (I have only been playing for 7 months now) and was told this would be a pre-Christmas patch I expected the patch to come some time in December, not early November! Actually it's because I'm relatively old I'm used to CCP just barely getting the patches in before Christmas, as is the tradition, so that the Devs are all enjoying themselves as bugs rampage though the game :p Quote: I figure to sell the first two I make and keep the last with it being paid for with the profits from the first two. After that, my bpo will be copied once and then go in for 1 round of me research. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Do you expect the price of the orca to come down after about a month? I have no idea as to the price the ship will be selling for. Sounds perfectly reasonable, basically what I'm doing ;) The first 1-2 batches will sell for the most, I had figured that it would drop in profit fairly hard after that, but it may not until after the third due to the early patch. Either way, you can figure out if you want to sell or keep once you've built the third ;) There will be a lot of supply, but due to the rush, not all that cheap supply. Personally I'm going to crank out about 12 in the initial batch. I got caught off guard however and put my component BPs in for their first build run of 1 week not 20 minutes before the patch date announcement (which gave < 1 week notice :( ) so I had to get BPCs to make up the parts I would have otherwise had built from BPOs. I suspect people who were planning to build fewer than I were probably less effected. As I didn't buy most of the BPOs until the day the requirements were announced. (already had a freighter production operation setup, so I had plenty of the two components Orca's share with freighters.). I've been making good isk selling the extra BPCs I had of those to make up for the BPCs I had to buy though. So you win some, you lose some. Anyone with a good Rorqual / Freighter production line was in a very good position for the Orca. So the supply will ramp up quickly. Getting in early + patience is the key. Fortunately unlike T2 BS's the prices do have a minimum to which they can fall, so you're unlikely to take a big loss even if left holding stock ;) I'll have to check again, last time I checked the ME time was quite a while, and the PE time shorter (which is unusual as PE time is usually longer). (note that in the current market there are many people that will probably make more selling the components than some will selling the Orcas ! ) Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Alpha Dorn	Posted - 2008.11.05 18:02:00 - [8] Wow. I just went looking for BPC's of everything i'd need to build an Orca, and talk about Greed! Gordan Gekko himself would think these guys are going a little too far.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2008.11.05 19:27:00 - [9] Originally by: Alpha Dorn Wow. I just went looking for BPC's of everything i'd need to build an Orca, and talk about Greed! Gordan Gekko himself would think these guys are going a little too far. Supply and demand. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Brego Tralowski Gallente Forever Night	Posted - 2008.11.06 11:00:00 - [10] yep you need to get in quick with the BPCs your after, i have seen 5 run capital cargo bay BPCs in jita yesterday for 20 milliom isk. ----------------------------------------------- Building and selling Orcas from 11/11/08 - all pre-orders now closed. Thank you.

Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve	Posted - 2008.11.06 11:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 05/11/2008 11:26:04 Trit is going for almost 3.5 isk these days ;) So your estimate is a little low, you will have to pay more for the others if you want to get them from sell orders too, which is personally how I calculate, if you're putting up buy orders then you're making money from trade which shouldn't be counted as part of the build profit (given that there is a limit on how much you can get from such cheap buy orders). I get at least 388m at ME0 based on the current prices you can expect to pay if you wish to buy the minerals to build. At the moment the components are selling for well over that cost (some more than double). The surprise early patch date has caught a lot of people off guard and will push prices up from where they might otherwise be. I guess you are buying your minerals the wrong place, since i have no problem with getting trit in larg number for around 2isk. The prices i posted is the avg. price from all empire regions, exported that day so totaly up todate. Ofcause i could have posted all 3 prices but i think the avg price is the most correct. ------- Ore & Ice Mining T1 & Capital & Rig Production POS Fueling and Reaction Minerals to Ore calculator
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.06 12:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Dedaf I guess you are buying your minerals the wrong place, since i have no problem with getting trit in larg number for around 2isk. The prices i posted is the avg. price from all empire regions, exported that day so totaly up todate. Ofcause i could have posted all 3 prices but i think the avg price is the most correct. It doesn't matter what you buy it for, it's worth what you could sell it for. I'll buy it off you for 2.5 isk then. All of it. Provided it's in highsec. I can immediately flip it for 3.73 isk for a billion units so (just to a buy order !).... Why would you build something to sell for less than the price you can sell the minerals alone for I don't know. If you wanted to buy a billion units of trit in highsec it could cost you up to 4 isk/unit. Getting one unit for 2 isk 15 jumps into 0.0 doesn't make trit worth 2 isk. I buy plenty of trit for less than that, but it takes weeks to build up decent volume and is in 0.0 so useless to builders in highsec. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.11.06 13:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Dedaf I guess you are buying your minerals the wrong place, since i have no problem with getting trit in larg number for around 2isk. The prices i posted is the avg. price from all empire regions, exported that day so totaly up todate. Ofcause i could have posted all 3 prices but i think the avg price is the most correct. Ahhh... another subscriber to the 'my mins are free' school of thought Like Fitz said, minerals are worth what you can sell them for not what you acquire them at.
Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve	Posted - 2008.11.06 13:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord Fitz It doesn't matter what you buy it for, it's worth what you could sell it for. I'll buy it off you for 2.5 isk then. All of it. Provided it's in highsec. I can immediately flip it for 3.73 isk for a billion units so (just to a buy order !).... Why would you build something to sell for less than the price you can sell the minerals alone for I don't know. If you wanted to buy a billion units of trit in highsec it could cost you up to 4 isk/unit. Getting one unit for 2 isk 15 jumps into 0.0 doesn't make trit worth 2 isk. I buy plenty of trit for less than that, but it takes weeks to build up decent volume and is in 0.0 so useless to builders in highsec. This is the same problem seen over and over again, about how to find the build price. But i do not agree with you, on calculating the build price on what you theoretically could sell minerals for, this is not a build price, itÆs just a nice dream. A build price is what you buy your minerals at, as long as you sell the item higher than the price you bought the minerals at, then you will make money. What ever price you could have sold the minerals at has nothing to do with build price. ------- Ore & Ice Mining T1 & Capital & Rig Production POS Fueling and Reaction Minerals to Ore calculator
Dia Bri	Posted - 2008.11.07 03:31:00 - [15] apparently some people have never heard of opportunity cost. something is worth what someone else will give you for it. The moment you buy something, what you paid for it is completely irrelevant. Manufacturing for profit is all about how much you increase the value of the raw materials by assembling them into a finished product. Think about it. Suppose someone contracts you all the materials to make a fancy new orca for 1 ISK. and then you turn around and manufacture the ship. then you sell it for 2 more ISK than all the manufacturing fees. Are you 1 ISK richer than you could have been? Yes, of course. Are you suddenly down 500 million dollars or more worth of assets? Yes, of course. Selling something for less than what you could sell the materials for is red mark on your net assets regardless of how much you acquired the assets for in the first place.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.07 10:29:00 - [16] Originally by: Dedaf A build price is what you buy your minerals at, as long as you sell the item higher than the price you bought the minerals at, then you will make money. What ever price you could have sold the minerals at has nothing to do with build price. Right. Someone has a buy order up for a material for 2 isk. You build an item that sells for 1000 isk, and takes 1000 material. Your material cost you .5 isk/unit. In your mind, you spent 500 isk. You sold for 1000 isk. You made 500 isk. If however you had not done the building stage, and had just sold the material instead, you would have made 1500 isk. Thus the process of building just lost you 1000 isk. I take your item you built for 500 isk and sold to me for 1000 isk. I refine it, and sell the materials for 2000 isk. Thus I just made an extra 1000 isk. There was 1500 isk to be made each, and I've ended up with 2500 of it, you with only 500. Now you didn't see your wallet go negative, but you still lost money that you could have had. (and you actually put in more effort to lose it !) Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Cheopis Ardishapur Ammunition and More	Posted - 2008.11.07 11:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Dedaf A build price is what you buy your minerals at, as long as you sell the item higher than the price you bought the minerals at, then you will make money. What ever price you could have sold the minerals at has nothing to do with build price. Heh, what region do you manufacture in? Cheo's Recycling service needs to head your way. Seriously though. You can lose potential money while still making a profit. That's what people are saying here.
Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve	Posted - 2008.11.07 11:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Cheopis Originally by: Dedaf A build price is what you buy your minerals at, as long as you sell the item higher than the price you bought the minerals at, then you will make money. What ever price you could have sold the minerals at has nothing to do with build price. Heh, what region do you manufacture in? Cheo's Recycling service needs to head your way. Seriously though. You can lose potential money while still making a profit. That's what people are saying here. As with the other 2, we are not talking about what i sell the item for, but what the build price is. build and sell price are not the same thing The cool thing about math is that you can almost get any result you like, but that doesnÆt mean that it is true, like in your case. Ill give you an example too then. ôx-itemö have a MAX mineral sell price of 1,1mill isk in the wallet you have: 1mill I have 1mill I buy +the minerals needed for the ôx-itemö meaning 550.000isk I now have 1.000.000-550.000=450.000isk in my wallet I then decide the time I spend mining is free, so all the minerals I have is price 0isk I now build the ship. Minerals bought 550.000 + minerals mined 0 =build price 550.000isk I now sell this item on market for 900.000isk Because of people like you, the ôx-itemö is instant sold. Because You see the item and then think OMFG some one is selling for less than mineral price and buy it off me for the 900.000isk then you refine it and try to see the minerals to top price. If you are lucky, and to be nice to you, in this case you get them all sold at top sell price then you can sell them at 1.100.000. Now I ask you, who have the most isk in the wallet? Need help? I have in the matter of a few hours 1.350.000 You have if you are lucky after days 1.200.000 yes i could have made 200.000 more on my selling, if i wanted to do the 0,01 isk war. but what do i care ------- Ore & Ice Mining T1 & Capital & Rig Production POS Fueling and Reaction Minerals to Ore calculator
Cheopis Ardishapur Ammunition and More	Posted - 2008.11.07 11:51:00 - [19] I'm not gonna tell you how to have fun Dedaf, it seems to me that you understand enough to know that you aren't making what you could, and don't care. That's great! Where do you sell your stuff again?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.07 12:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 07/11/2008 12:45:15 Edited by: Lord Fitz on 07/11/2008 12:43:02 If you can't see that in your example I'd have 1.75m and you'd only have 1.35m both having spent the same amount of time, then there is no hope for you. Oh, and then when I do the same thing exactly to a hundred other people like you at the same time, I make 100x as much \o/. I stopped mining completely over 2 years ago. I make more in a few hours now than I made mining in the first 2 years I played. And I owe a lot of it to people who simply give me their isk because they don't value it properly. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster

Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Dedaf ahhh.. another one missing the point. you are both talking about sell price. i agree it will be silly to sell an item for less than you could sell the minerals for, but that still doesn't make it a build price. Build price is what you buy the minerals/material for. the only thing really interesting when building is not to sell items for less than the price you spend building it, because then you will lose money ofcause. You will not lose money buy selling an item for less than market mineral price, you just wont make as much money, but that a totally deferent problem as what was asked here. One of the questions here was build price, not what the profit could be. Thank you for making the capital business so easy. Without manufacturers who agree with your mode of thought I'd be forced to actually compete for my minerals. As it stands now, I just melt down Ravens
Jeanna Anne	Posted - 2008.11.07 13:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 07/11/2008 12:45:15 Oh, and then when I do the same thing exactly to a hundred other people like you at the same time, I make 100x as much \o/. I stopped mining completely over 2 years ago. I make more in a few hours now than I made mining in the first 2 years I played. And I owe a lot of it to people who simply give me their isk because they don't value it properly. Lord Fitz, You are absolutely correct! I am still pretty new to this game and at the stage right now where I have more "fun" and enjoyment just doing what I feel like doing in this moment and something else in the next moment. I mine and build things for fun right now. When I get tired(read bored) of doing that, I switch to doing some lvl 4 missions and scanning for anomalies. I play the game for leisure purposes. I really hope that this game does not turn into a "job" and stays a fun liesurely pursuit. I have not gotten to the stage where it is more "fun" to be pvp in the market and have over 10B in my wallet. BUT, I might get to that point some day so I follow this board and the market discussions board closely hoping to learn how to value my isk better. So thank you for your insight and knowledge that you freely share.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.07 15:29:00 - [23] There are certainly many play styles in the game. I had a friend who used to train skills like visibility to lvl 5 just so he could 'complete' the trade section. Entirely useless in-game, but fun for him. I bet there are people in this game that have 5-10x as much isk that I have, and have been playing half as long. Personally I've done just about everything there is to do in the game, so I'm now in a 'retirement' phase, where I just do what I want when I want ;) Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Leyanna Divine Power	Posted - 2008.11.08 15:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Leyanna on 08/11/2008 15:46:00 Originally by: Dedaf I then decide the time I spend mining is free, so all the minerals I have is price 0isk Would u mine for me plz!?!?!
Master Han The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.08 18:20:00 - [25] Edited by: Master Han on 08/11/2008 18:20:48 Where in empire are the BPO to be sold?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.08 18:27:00 - [26] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 08/11/2008 18:27:47 Deep Core Mining Stations in Empire or Outer Ring stations (0.0). Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster


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