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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:03:00 -
[31]
Ancy... great summary of what I am sure was a detailed and perhaps heated discussion at times.
BTW... do you want to take notes at my Board meetings in the future???
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:10:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Krylon Rhae on 12/11/2008 11:10:43 As Ancy points out below...
Originally by: Ancy Denaries I seriously believe that they will think thru stuff both once and twice before implementing it. Having to "chase" roids in a Hulk would probably involve some changes to exhumers speeds and agility. I sometimes baffle at how stupid you people think the devs are. :D
I'm sure that the Devs would not do something that would ruin the game mechanics... get real folks.
As in any thing, start with a broad brush, throw out ideas and as you refine those ideas, keep what makes sense and get rid of what would not. So for now, I'll keep an open mind and see how things develop hoping they implement something that makes mining more creative/rewarding while not making it too complex or tedious.
My 2-isk worth.
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Reklan
The Photon Raiders
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:31:00 -
[33]
Ancy, Thanks for this.
Must say some of the ideas that are coming thru sound very intersting.. and to be honest I like the sound of them all...
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:34:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Krylon Rhae Ancy... great summary of what I am sure was a detailed and perhaps heated discussion at times.
It was a surprisingly calm discussion. The players attending and CCP Chronotis seemed to be on the same page, so we basically just got a lot of "Yes, that's coming" on our suggestions and questions. Much of our issues had already been thought of at CCP, so I was happily surprised.
Originally by: Krylon Rhae BTW... do you want to take notes at my Board meetings in the future???
Trust me, this was a one time occasion. The only reason I remember all this is because I'm so damn keen on getting it in the game.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Krylon Rhae Ancy... great summary of what I am sure was a detailed and perhaps heated discussion at times.
BTW... do you want to take notes at my Board meetings in the future???
LOL, no kidding...
I guess I would define RE training like this; If they change mining, and add "different" skills, to the point that I am no longer capable of making the isk, and mining the ores I am now with my current skill set, then I am RE training... having said that... If they change it, but add new skills, to make you better in other ways.. I.E. I can scan and find a belt, go sit in it with my hulk and mine, and when the Uber rats show up Kill them off with my Uber drones while managing my uber tank, (as the hauler pilot screams like a little girl and runs) and bring in a basically similar amount of ores... YET, with the new skills I can become selective about what I mine as in Isogens or Zydrine etc then I could happily accept it. I understand, nothing is set in stone, and that they probably aren't even looking for opinions yet.
Posted above by Ancy; Tediousness: The whole idea to the mining changes is to make them exciting, interesting and interactive. Yes, this is going to **** off all those that sit half asleep while mining ice and watches movies. You know what? I don't give a bloody damn. I pay to PLAY the game. If mining becomes fun, interactive and exciting, I will be overjoyed, because it's the most boring thing you can in EVE at the moment.
I agree with you 99% on that!!!!! The other 1% ??? are the days Ive busted my behind, come home sweaty, tired, and aggravated, and actually DO enjoy the quiet boredom of watching the beams, and listening to the mellow hiss of the Hulk at full roar... I actually run One comp on the original client because I like the way it sounds better than with the premium :P
Not to mention, watching the strips cycle has now become twice as interactive, you can watch the little timer gizmo spin around them :P
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McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:34:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar
Not to mention, watching the strips cycle has now become twice as interactive, you can watch the little timer gizmo spin around them :P
I've been asking for that for years.... I'm a happy panda
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: McFly
Originally by: Kalderion Mar
Not to mention, watching the strips cycle has now become twice as interactive, you can watch the little timer gizmo spin around them :P
I've been asking for that for years.... I'm a happy panda
Damn straight!
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:15:00 -
[38]
Interesting ideas, but Id like a two tierd system. To a point, mining should be tedious. Its mining. But when you choose to do something more challenging you should be rewarded. Anyone can mine a belt. But if you explore for better ore, you are rewarded. If you mine in lo sec, you are rewarded. If you use t1 strips you can mine anything. If you use t2 strips you are rewarded with more yield. Basically the more work you put in the better the rewards should be.
I would actually prefer for now that ore belts be more like ice belts right now. Unlimited asteroids. Thats more realistic. All this moving around, constantly popping roids is annoying. Mining is an industry. Industry isnt supposed to be very dynamic.
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Echo Vector
Gallente The Wild Bunch
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 12/11/2008 09:32:06 ................If mining becomes fun, interactive and exciting, I will be overjoyed, because it's the most boring thing you can in EVE at the moment....................
Ummmmmmm,
Tending a mess of POS reactors simply must be in equal consideration as mind numbingly boring..............
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:21:00 -
[40]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop Actually, I can see where there could be some interesting mechanics where highly desirable asteroids are made to be chased by mining cruisers.
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit And then trackered in?
Originally by: SeismicForce Can you web the running asteroid...?
I'd say it would be more disruptive to mess with the tractor beam and webifier modules rules (it's not like we don't *already* have issues with tractor beams being peculiarly subjective about what they will/will not tractor...). Just let the asteroid plow on -- the cruiser has to keep up. And if the cruiser needs to jetcan mine, then it needs to fit a tractor beam to haul the can along, too.
MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching |
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Mad Crafter
Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:45:00 -
[41]
As someone who mines in 0.0 and highsec I'd like to add my comments to the ideas.
1. Ok, as long as you can find a normal belt in under 5 min. Also if this takes a new module then fittings on mining ships will have to be increased to allow for it. Extra high quality belts that take 30ish min to find would also be nice.
2. Again more fitting would be needed to allow for the "sophisticated scanning equipment"
3&4. In highsec I honestly wouldn't care, as I suck every roid in range dry anyway. In 0.0 I see deep core mining as being more useful, as you're normally only after the most valuable ores.
5. Interesting. I hope they have a smooth transition to this. If it takes a month for current miners to train to mine Arkonor again then it's will cause disasters to the market. Being able to have a max skilled miner in 3ish moth is a little too easy.
6. In highsec, who cares? In 0.0 I think the hulk would need a buff to the tank. I can barely withstand that rats as is (I didn't spend 500M on my tank). Different damage types would make tanking almost impossible with the current hulk.
7. Clearly a hulk would need enough agility/speed to avoid getting hit, or enough tank to survive. However chasing the roids I would see as the role of the skiff. Clearly the roid would have to be worth chasing, and I think it would be quite fun! Not to mention new roles for ships is always good.
8. Interesting option. Sounds like in increases both risk and rewards, and that can't be bad. It's also something for the older miners.
9. Better graphics is just good.
10. Sounds like you could still be semi afk if you wanted to, but paying attention would make you that much more. Good in my books.
I general, anything that make it so you can mine without falling asleep, or using something else to entertain you is just pure win.
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Arc D'landrus
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.11.14 02:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 12/11/2008 09:32:06
...Yes, this is going to **** off all those that sit half asleep while mining ice and watches movies....If mining becomes fun, interactive and exciting, I will be overjoyed...
Fair enough. If there's something to be said about Eve, everyone manages to find something the like about. Hopefully for those of us, who enjoy the occational lapse into sleep-wake-mine-sleep, CCP will manage to implement changes to mining capable of placating all our various lusts for love of the rock.
...And death the ISK Macro Farmers. _______________________________________________ Easy Dude. You're being very un-Dude.
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Tobin Shalim
Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 18:30:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Squasar For the idea of random ores being mined and part of it filling the hold with crap, that's just plain bull. Why would we mine if half or more of our hold will sell for 0.0001isk/unit killing any kind of profit rating. This combined with the fact that you'd need 2-3x the miners to keep the economy in the state it's in now. Ore prices would skyrocket with that plan, killing production and trickling down to PvP.
Sounds like another failed idea coming.
this. -----
Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
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Leumas Kharzim
Amarr Intaki Armaments
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Posted - 2008.11.14 19:57:00 -
[44]
I think the ideas are great and it gives me hope about the future of mining.
Have a little faith in the devs. They aren't going to destroy industry just for laughs. They are trying to give the game more depth. |
Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.11.14 20:38:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 14/11/2008 20:38:08
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 12/11/2008 09:32:06 Just to note on some of the concerns raised in this thread:
Strip mining worthlessness: While this was just mentioned in a passerby, I genuinely believe that CCP has some really good ideas about strip mining (which is NOT to be confused with using strip miners, but simply a mining form) and will not nerf Exhumers into oblivion. Waste products might be used for other things (such as making POS fuels or whatever). Or there will be no waste, but you will simply get ALL ores, even though you only want one type. It's not set in stone, it's just on the planning stage so far.
Dangerous environments: I do believe that most dangerous environments will be made so that a T2 fitted Hulk can handle them. Some might actually (omg blasphemy) need teamwork with some fighters defending the miners. Who knows? I doubt CCP is going to omgwtfpwnnerf solominers and make mining tedious.
Tediousness: The whole idea to the mining changes is to make them exciting, interesting and interactive. Yes, this is going to **** off all those that sit half asleep while mining ice and watches movies. You know what? I don't give a bloody damn. I pay to PLAY the game. If mining becomes fun, interactive and exciting, I will be overjoyed, because it's the most boring thing you can in EVE at the moment.
So while I don't think CCPs goals is to make mining tedious, but to make it interactive. Which means you can DO stuff to help your mining, instead of just F1-F3 and sit there waiting for the cycles to finish.
Retraining: We talked about this at the roundtable, and while I didn't get a straight answer, I got the feeling that they will build on and expand on the currently existing skills. For instance making the Processing skills help Deep Core mining and so on. They didn't feel there were much more skills they could inject into the mining system, so I doubt you'll have to retrain. (I'd be grumpy too, because I'ev just achieved what Halada calls a "Mining God(ess)".)
^^ This. . I might actually break out my Hulk and mine again if it wasn't so damn boring. ---
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Halada
Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.14 20:53:00 -
[46]
Considering it took 1.5 year for the Orca to appear, and the Draftman invention implant since isn't fixed afaik, and also considering the general time it takes CCP to fix anything industrial related, we won't see this before 2010!
I'm more interested in Wormholes and Tech 3 !
Bring it on babe! |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 1. Majority of the mining system will be moved to the so called "Dungeon System".
Nice, will give more options for mining environments, hopefully scaled well in the reward vs difficulty of finding stakes compared to the current hidden belts.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 2. Asteroids will cease being of different types.
Interesting, though I guess the question is whether you'll need to have surveyed the asteroid before you can start mining it.
If you don't, then people probably won't scan it, they'll just run a couple of seconds of a mining laser on it and see what comes out.
If you do have to survey before you can start mining it, then there will probably need to be some tweaks to ensure all the ships that should be able to can fit the scanners.
Of course if the current survey scan bonus of things like the Orca carries over, that could give an interesting additional role to the Orca. Though that would need them to enable the sharing of scan results within a fleet (which is really needed to make even the current survey scan bonus on the Orca truly useful).
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 3. Asteriods will probably be composited. No longer will a roid contain just ONE ore type. You can find roids with 10% veldspar, 15% scordite, 45% kernite and 20% gneiss.
Interesting idea, but will need to be carefully balanced to ensure that the possible composites still allow players to favour yields of particular minerals. Otherwise the ability for miners to match their output to market demand gets nerfed, which could lead to market prices getting skewed.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 4. Strip mining and deep core mining will change. Strip mining will basically be sucking the entire roid into your cargohold...
Deep core mining will be a more specialized form of mining, where you use deep core miners to hit the veins in the roids and extract just one type of ore and bypass the waste.
Makes sense, though the viability of strip mining will depend on the composite ratios being got right, as mentioned above.
Also, I'm not sure strip mining would need an explicit waste element - by being forced to mine a mix of ore types, you're already going to be mining some sub-optimal ores (i.e. ores with lower isk/m3 values). This in itself is going to be an efficiency hit vs being able to cherry pick a specific ore using deep core mining, so there will still be room for both.
What's going to be interesting is how easy it'll be for a miner to be efficient in both strip and deep core mining. I suspect that when the mineral and ore market is fairly close to balance, strip mining will be the more attractive option. The further out from balance the market gets, the more attractive deep core mining becomes, as the ore price difference overcomes the volume advantage of strip mining.
If it is fairly easy for miners to retool from one to the other, then this could have a nice stabilizing effect on the market. If it is very hard to retool, then it will probably be destabilizing, as people will continue to strip mine and supply will not change to meet market demand. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 5. Skills will have a much greater effect on your mining.
Many interesting possibilities here, but again I'm wary of anything that makes it too hard for miners to change output in response to market demand. I'd go with keeping the basic tier of each ore type open to the majority, with existing and new high-yield variants requiring new skills in conjunction with being used in the new environments.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 6. Rat raids. Rats will no longer be locked to one type. With the move to the dungeon system, devs will be able to spawn random events such as Blood Raider raids into Guristas territory, rats fighting eachother and so on.
Will make life more interesting, but if an environment includes rats that barges can't handle naturally, then the yield of ores available there will need to be high enough to allow for armed escort without the op losing profitability.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 7. Random events in roid belts....8. Planetary rings on the drawing board.
As above.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 9. Graphical updates to the mining environment.
Eye candy is always nice
Originally by: Ancy Denaries 10. More interactive mining system. Devs also mentioned that they strive to make mining more interesting and rewarding. Not necessarily by giving you more yield, but giving you something to do. Perhaps real time scanning of the roids to see WHERE the ore vein is and adjusting laser angles, frequencies and stuff to maximize your yield.
Personally I'm not keen on introducing arbitrary mini-games to mining just for the sake of it. However, where I think more interactivity could be beneficial is in improving existing things like cycle timing and improvements to the existing survey scanning mechanic.
Already it's possible to save yourself some time by manually finishing a cycle when the roid is depleted. Though it's currently a bit of a pig to do.
A real interactivity improvement would be to link module control and survey scanning in a far more cohesive way, so that it was easy to associate survey scan results with the modules currently mining that roid, and maybe even give projected times to depletion etc.
If the benefits of proper timing needed to be strengthened, then there are options for this, such as not having a laser stop automatically when the roid is depleted, but instead have it start sucking "useless rock" into your hold instead. Similarly with deep core, if you leave it running past the targeted ore's depletion, you might start getting one of the lesser ores you hadn't targeted, or useless rock again.
If other mini-games are introduced, then they need to have a specific and beneficial reason for being there, not just a "push this button every 5 seconds to increase your yield" mechanic dressed up with a pretty graphic.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Dangerous environments: I do believe that most dangerous environments will be made so that a T2 fitted Hulk can handle them. Some might actually (omg blasphemy) need teamwork with some fighters defending the miners. Who knows? I doubt CCP is going to omgwtfpwnnerf solominers and make mining tedious.
Two important things come to mind for this: 1) Just because there are dangerous environments, does not mean there will not be safe ones as well. 2) Provided the yields of the ores available match the resources (players+ships) needed to mine them, I have no problem with areas that require fighter escorts, logistics support ships to keep barges alive etc. I think a lot of concern in this area is because of the way this balance has not been preserved currently in low-sec mining. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Rev Russ
Caldari Nanoprints
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:59:00 -
[49]
I am amazed that I haven't heard anyone mention the following- Scanning down random asteroid belts (with probes) is a direct attack at the macro mining problem. And while it may become more tedious to mine, mineral prices would drastically increase and make mining a much more profitable venture. If they make the scanning process too simplistic macro mining will continue to flurish.
I find these changes exciting, but hopefully they won't get botched up in implemention. It would be nice to double the value of my mineral stockpile
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Enor Sabien
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:01:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Rev Russ I am amazed that I haven't heard anyone mention the following- Scanning down random asteroid belts (with probes) is a direct attack at the macro mining problem. And while it may become more tedious to mine, mineral prices would drastically increase and make mining a much more profitable venture. If they make the scanning process too simplistic macro mining will continue to flurish.
I find these changes exciting, but hopefully they won't get botched up in implemention. It would be nice to double the value of my mineral stockpile
Macro miners have 1% influence over market prices. Don't kid yourself!
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IxenBlaze
Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.17 01:13:00 -
[51]
I kind of like these ideas, but it takes a really long time to train up to pilot a hulk :\. If they make the mob spawns harder to deal with then i think they should at least make the TI mining barges a bit more durable because theyre just cardboard boxes in terms of survivability.
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ozz gonarun
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Posted - 2008.11.17 03:33:00 -
[52]
Those that don't like these changes that may come out.....Dibs on your characters if you choose to quite
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IxenBlaze
Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.17 05:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: ozz gonarun Those that don't like these changes that may come out.....Dibs on your characters if you choose to quite
I think the new unplayable lag will make more people quit than this D:.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
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Posted - 2008.11.17 07:52:00 -
[54]
Originally by: IxenBlaze
Originally by: ozz gonarun Those that don't like these changes that may come out.....Dibs on your characters if you choose to quite
I think the new unplayable lag will make more people quit than this D:.
You have lag? I mean other than the standard post-patch week-long lag? I firmly believe lag is going to be something of the past once the patch-lag clears.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Mamy Pepite
Osiris Entreprises
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Posted - 2008.11.17 10:20:00 -
[55]
Thanks for the report |
Qordel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.17 11:24:00 -
[56]
I'm unsure what "dungeon system" means. To me, it just means "instancing". So does this men rats/other people will ONLY be NPC? That would suck.
Not so sure I'm very excited about the tedium of constantly babying the entire mining process. The only way that would be worthwhile is if the reward for the tedious attention was significantly increases, which would then have potential for unfortunately altering the entire economy of eve. |
Cheru'bael
Amarr Ordo Ministorum
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Posted - 2008.11.17 11:28:00 -
[57]
well, honestly, it's tough to keep miner escorts entertained. i mean, i LOVE to mine. don't get my wrong, but for years i've had a real problem keeping my trigger happy corp mates in one place for very long before they kite off somewhere.
i've never blamed them. in fact, i've always found the idea of miner escorts to be the most boring profession evar.
with the drawing board thought balloons being paraded it might actually sound like the Devs understand this problem and are trying to address a serious issue.
oh wait, nm, it's just some guy in marketing coming up with another BFI |
Thopor
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:35:00 -
[58]
2 thoughts I love the idea of changing mining, personally I don't like micro mining. I like being entertained, I won't lie mining is relaxing, beneficial and for the most part keeps me busy. If the devs wanna make it more challenging and entertaining then I am up for the challenge. I have months of skills dedicated to mining and protecting my investment. So changing the system to benefit my skills more is a plus. I also like the idea of separating the Sunday miner from the full time miner. I hate the idea that the difference between a covetor and hulk is only a week. Its my opinion.
I agree with keeping you friends busy, when a corp member wants to help and shows up in there BS I usually give the 20 before the wonder off. Finding a balance will be hard.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:16:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Qordel I'm unsure what "dungeon system" means. To me, it just means "instancing". So does this men rats/other people will ONLY be NPC? That would suck.
Not so sure I'm very excited about the tedium of constantly babying the entire mining process. The only way that would be worthwhile is if the reward for the tedious attention was significantly increases, which would then have potential for unfortunately altering the entire economy of eve.
No, Dungeon system is not instancing. This was emphazised at Fanfest; EVE will NEVER EVER have instancing. Instancing is moronic and idiotic in the devs eyes. The dungeon system is merely the system that handles the current mission areas and deadspace zones. They have more tools in those areas than in normal space (such as around stations, planets and belts). Therefore most belts will be moved into these dungeon areas. Or rather, will be made into dungeon areas.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:17:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Matthew *awesome stuff*
Some really good ideas and advices there, mate. Hope the devs look at that. Also some very important thoughts. Well met! |
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