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Stealing Honest
Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC
81
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Posted - 2012.04.06 01:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
Towaoc wrote:Ank, I know how you feel. I suffered my single largest loss ever - 8.4 billion ISK - in just the same way. It was back in June of 2009, a busy Sunday in Jita and market order entry lag was almost unbearable. You could key in an order, leave to go get a beer, and still see the digits loading into the order entry window, one.... by.... one... when you returned. I was trying to enter an order to buy 20,000 units of Ferrogel, then trading at around 47,000 per unit. I thought I had keyed in a buy price of 47,040 per unit and hit Enter (yea, I know, stupid me for hitting Enter), but the window showed only 4704. After a reasonable pause, I keyed another 0 and hit Enter. Of course, the extra zero then finally registered along with two enters, so I never saw a warning screen. My order filled at a price of 470,400! I petitioned this until I was blue in the face, on two grounds. First, extreme market lag had caused this order entry error. Second, on the point brought up by Dandro and others - that the order entry mechanic is grossly flawed. An order should be handled as a limit order to buy (or sell) at the stated price or better. A buy order at a price higher than currenlty listed sell orders should fill in layers, at the asked price of each outstanding sell order in queue up to the limit price. Same in reverse for sell orders. Had that mechanic been in place, my order would have filled in several increments at prices ranging from 48,000 to 49,000 per unit. Most of you will be pleased to hear that CCP stood its ground, never giving in to my reimbursement request, despite my lengthy and (I thought) well-presented arguments, until I finally grew weary of the battle. There was no acknowledgement of extreme lag, and the mechanics were deemed to be working as intended. Fortunately, my loss was only 8.4 billion....
I disagree a bit. I think a buy offer should be just that... an offer to buy at the price set by the buyer, and filled for exactly the price submitted in the order.
SH
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Dandro Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.06 01:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Stealing Honest wrote:I disagree a bit. I think a buy offer should be just that... an offer to buy at the price set by the buyer, and filled for exactly the price submitted in the order.
SH
Nope. I disagree and submitted a bugreport about that problem.
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Mr Blueberry
7
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Posted - 2012.04.06 01:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Had this happen to me a couple years ago.
Modified a buy order for megacyte to be over 10 times larger. I realized I did it the second I pressed enter...couldn't do anything about it until the 5 minute modify timer expired but the order was filled in a few seconds.
It was only 700m but back then that was like half my total Isk. |
Kandreath
De Re Metallica Epsilon Shimmy Alliance
35
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Posted - 2012.04.06 01:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Raven Ether wrote:Proof that market UI is a JOKE and needs updating by CCP, functionality and performance wise.
Seriously??!!??
I don't think that Ank Parkor was saying anything other than, "Yeah I messed up, but what can I do to avoid this later on?". (And in the process provide some light entertainment ).
Now you are going to turn this into a CCP market interface rage thing? - Seriously?
IMO - if CCP were going to touch this part of the game I would prefer they look at something more interesting.
The fact that you can [TAB] and get the pricing formatted with thousands separators and decimal points plus as Brock points out there should've been a warning about being xx% percent above market average, should be enough. (Actually I'm unclear if you can turn this warning off, but I keep it on and it has saved my wallet at least 10 times).
In any case, not every mistake you make is someone else's (like CCP's) fault. |
Stealing Honest
Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC
81
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Posted - 2012.04.06 01:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Dandro Gaterau wrote:Stealing Honest wrote:I disagree a bit. I think a buy offer should be just that... an offer to buy at the price set by the buyer, and filled for exactly the price submitted in the order.
SH
Nope. I disagree and submitted a bugreport about that problem.
What exactly are you bug reporting?
"Dear CCP, your Buy orders have been working as intended for 9 years...please stop." ?!??
SH |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
528
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Posted - 2012.04.06 02:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kandreath wrote:In any case, not every mistake you make is someone else's (like CCP's) fault.
Poor bullet proofing is always the developer's fault, always. |
snake pies
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2012.04.06 03:34:00 -
[37] - Quote
I feel ya. The stupid market warnings don't make any sense, except that one time this happens.
Sometimes I edit an order 1 isk and it tells me 1500% kljdfkljdasklfjaklsjflkasjkldasjdklasjkldjaskld? yes no?
needs overhaul badly |
Boomhaur
7
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Posted - 2012.04.06 04:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
I remember years ago when I was flying a Drake when I was a noob and was a few days away from flying the Nighthawk, I just randomly checked the contracts and what do I see a Nighthawk with T2 Shield Purgers for only 200mil, I sold both my Drakes and various other ships/modules just to buy it. As back than the Nighthawk cost 200mil and EACH T2 rig cost over 400mil, so it was a 1bil ship for 1/5 of the cost. Needless to say I was jumping for joy over that transaction.
The name of the ship was Punishment, suiting name considering how much the pilot lost on that sell. That ship served me admirably for about 3-4years till it met it's untimely demise last year due to random acts of stupidity. |
Jejju
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2012.04.06 09:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
(Almost) all traders have made this mistake to some degree. When I lost 200m making this mistake I evemailed the people I had 'given' money to, explained the situation and asked for some of the money back. I think I got about 80m back.
Your milage may vary and I'm sure that some people would consider sending the mails as pathetic begging - your call.
I would almost always give such money back, given a polite request. |
Shar Tegral
147
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Posted - 2012.04.06 10:47:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:50 mil or 500 mil doesn't make a difference. The code may or may not be sloppy but the solution already exists: Use Tab, not Enter.
Use TAB
Not ENTER.
Just in case you missed it the first time around.
if (Use TAB);
joy;
else;
tears;
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Raphael Celestine
Galactic Trust Inc
1
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Posted - 2012.04.06 11:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Kandreath wrote:In any case, not every mistake you make is someone else's (like CCP's) fault. Poor bullet proofing is always the developer's fault, always.
Except that CCP aren't producing a finance-management program; they're producing a game. It's not their job to make sure that no-one using their software loses money.
They've given you an easy method to see what amount you've entered by nicely formatting the numbers, and they've included a pop-up saying 'are you sure you want to do this?'. If you still enter a ridiculous price, then the correct response from the game is to assume that you know what you're doing - or do you also think that CCP should prevent people putting skill-books up for 100x the NPC price hoping to catch a lazy buyer, or buying up all the stock in a region and relisting at five times the price in an attempt to manipulate the market? |
Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
39
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Posted - 2012.04.06 11:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
Just send evemails to the people you overpaid. Most of them will probably refund you. |
Dandro Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.04.06 11:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Quote:The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. As a dev myself I'm telling people "Its not a bug, its a feature" too. It's my main excuse too
I'm a new player and immediately noticed this as an obvious market bug, even if it was this case 9 years long. Everbody who trades on real markets knows that. |
Stealing Honest
Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC
81
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Posted - 2012.04.06 14:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
Just to reply to the OP's actual question.
12b +/- 1b give or take.
Like you i made the mistake of not pushing "TAB", and hitting enter while purchasing a stack of Zydrine. I then followed that up with a poorly placed order for Megacyte. It was a miserable, stormy Friday night, and i had been drinking since Tuesday.... what a mess i had on my hands.
So i did the only thing i could do, i got a container to hold the minerals, and put it in the back on the hangar gathering dust. Well i watched as those minerals went slowly down down down....loosing another 50% value. Then after time i forgot about the old crate in the back of the hangar.
So that brings us to today, and reading this thread, and ....hmmm where is that old crate, because mineral prices have spiked
So OP, hang in there. Do as Shar says and use "TAB" "TAB" "TAB".
I still don't see it as a bug, but that's my opinion.
SH
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Jejju
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2012.04.06 17:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
[quote=Dandro Gaterau]
Quote:
I'm a new player and immediately noticed this as an obvious market bug, even if it was this case 9 years long..
So if it is a bug, what is the fix?
You do know that you get warned if you try to execute a transaction too far from the average price, don't you? You can't really be proposing that you are prevented from setting up orders too far from the average.
I think a decent enhancement would be to allow people to control the variance from mean at which the warning dialogue pops up, but that can't be described as a bug fix. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
531
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Posted - 2012.04.06 18:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Kandreath wrote:In any case, not every mistake you make is someone else's (like CCP's) fault. Poor bullet proofing is always the developer's fault, always. Except that CCP aren't producing a finance-management program; they're producing a game. It's not their job to make sure that no-one using their software loses money.
Equivocation does not make a valid argument.
Raphael Celestine wrote: They've given you an easy method to see what amount you've entered by nicely formatting the numbers, and they've included a pop-up saying 'are you sure you want to do this?'. If you still enter a ridiculous price, then the correct response from the game is to assume that you know what you're doing - or do you also think that CCP should prevent people putting skill-books up for 100x the NPC price hoping to catch a lazy buyer, or buying up all the stock in a region and relisting at five times the price in an attempt to manipulate the market?
Nice strawman man, here look, a match. Fire burns, straw dies. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
146
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Posted - 2012.04.06 19:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Every time someone types "straw man" or "straw man argument" it makes me want to projectile diarrhea. Please stop. Your freshman year logic courses were great, but it makes you sound like an even bigger tool than the person whose argument you are refuting.
Nothing personal Adunh, but please stop.
[/rage] |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
531
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Posted - 2012.04.06 19:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:Every time someone types "straw man" or "straw man argument" it makes me want to projectile diarrhea.
It is a strawman, call em like I see them. Sorry that you do not like it. |
SabotNoob
Sabot Industries
43
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Posted - 2012.04.06 19:26:00 -
[49] - Quote
What also helps is create your own one-man corp. Park a ****-load of ISK there, your savings account, if you will. Trade with what you are comfortable with, and if you mess up on a market order, you will only lose what's in your personal wallet, and not your corporation wallet. |
Just Alter
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2012.04.06 22:49:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dandro Gaterau wrote:Quote:The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug. As a dev myself I'm telling people "Its not a bug, its a feature" too. It's my main excuse too I'm a new player and immediately noticed this as an obvious market bug, even if it was this case 9 years long. Everbody who trades on real markets knows that.
And also everybody who trades on real markets sure as hell does not trade in eve.
If he does then he might need a new hobby or a new job.
Btw i agree with the ones who say that's fine as it is.
If a titan pilot clicks 10pixels away he might lose 80bil of ship in a few minutes.
If a trader click 00isk away he might lose X isk in a few minutes/seconds.
So as eve is designed this mechanic makes perfect sense.
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Raphael Celestine
Galactic Trust Inc
1
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Posted - 2012.04.07 05:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Raphael Celestine wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Kandreath wrote:In any case, not every mistake you make is someone else's (like CCP's) fault. Poor bullet proofing is always the developer's fault, always. Except that CCP aren't producing a finance-management program; they're producing a game. It's not their job to make sure that no-one using their software loses money. Equivocation does not make a valid argument. Very well, how about this? EVE Online is a PvP-centered MMO. That means the main purpose of the software is to enable players to compete with each other - mostly in terms of shooting each other in internet spaceships, true, but market PvP is still a significant part of the game. Furthermore, it's a game that explicitly allows scamming, espionage, treachery and otherwise gaining the upper hand by whatever means possible. It's fairly clear that the intended result of carelessness or stupidity in EVE is losing all your stuff - generally to another player who was less careless.
What you are proposing is that when a player does something dumb - ignoring or bypassing two safety mechanisms already built into the UI to do so - CCP should ensure that the mistake doesn't cost him anything, rather than allow another player to profit from his error. That's hardly the action of an impartial referee, which is the role that they should be playing.
Adunh Slavy wrote:Nice strawman man, here look, a match. Fire burns, straw dies. .. It is a strawman, call em like I see them. Sorry that you do not like it. Then what, exactly, do you want the Devs to do?
Preventing orders that are more than a certain distance from the current average is unacceptable. Firstly, there are a number of perfectly valid (if underhanded) reasons for placing orders with very high or low prices. Secondly, it would likely be too open to exploitation by anyone with large amounts of ISK. And thirdly, it's more-or-less the opposite to EVE's general philosophy that your actions (including your mistakes) have consequences.
Changing the priority of the two orders so that the sale goes through at the price of the older one rather than the new one would be less objectionable but also wouldn't solve the 'problem'. A mistake in choosing your price would still cause you to lose money - just less of it - and that's assuming that there were enough orders up already to instantly fill it when it was posted. If not, you've just guaranteed that the remaining items will be bought at the full price you set regardless of what the other party chooses as their price. You also run afoul of the law of unintended consequences, since one side effect would be to make the margin trading scam 100% foolproof regardless of either the player's or character's skills.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
537
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Posted - 2012.04.07 05:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote: It's fairly clear that the intended result of carelessness or stupidity in EVE is losing all your stuff - generally to another player who was less careless.
Equivocating twice, with the same argument, doesn't magically make it any more valid. Try again.
Raphael Celestine wrote: Then what, exactly, do you want the Devs to do?
A bubble sort and a loop to create a limit order is a simple matter. And again, you are arguing points not related to the issue. |
Raphael Celestine
Galactic Trust Inc
1
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Posted - 2012.04.07 06:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Raphael Celestine wrote: It's fairly clear that the intended result of carelessness or stupidity in EVE is losing all your stuff - generally to another player who was less careless.
Equivocating twice, with the same argument, doesn't magically make it any more valid. Try again. My dictionary defines 'equivocate' as 'use language that can be understood in more than one way in order to avoid the truth', so I'm not sure you're using the right word there. However, in an attempt to be totally clear: EVE online is a competitive player-versus-player game. Therefore, the software should allow one player to profit from a mistake made by another player.
If you honestly still think that's ambiguous, I'm not sure what I can do. If you think it's wrong, then perhaps you should give a slightly more detailed response.
Adunh Slavy wrote:Raphael Celestine wrote: Then what, exactly, do you want the Devs to do?
A bubble sort and a loop to create a limit order is a simple matter. And again, you are arguing points not related to the issue. Very simple indeed - once you've decided what the limit should be. So I'll repeat my question: what do you you want the Devs to do? Prevent an order more than 50% above or below the average? More than 10% above or below the current min/max? Do you seriously believe that players should never be allowed to enter an order that the system deems 'too extreme', even if they want to? |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
538
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Posted - 2012.04.07 06:30:00 -
[54] - Quote
You are attempting to justify bad code with "Eve is a PVP game and it should be hard." If you do not see how you are attempting to equate poor design with "eve should be hard", then I can not help you.
The default behavior should act as a limit order. Pretty simple. If you really need to ability to place more 1 trit for a billion ISK orders, I'm sure someone will accommodate you. |
Raphael Celestine
Galactic Trust Inc
1
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Posted - 2012.04.07 07:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The default behavior should act as a limit order. Pretty simple. If you really need to ability to place more 1 trit for a billion ISK orders, I'm sure someone will accommodate you. My mistake, I misunderstood your previous post.
I can assure you, however, the current system already does act as a limit order. If you place a buy order, you will buy the goods at or below the price you set; a sell order behaves similarly.
The case we are discussing here is when a second limit order is established overlapping with the first. This means that any of a range of values is perfectly valid for both orders. The code then has to chose some point in said range to actually conduct the transaction at, and I personally feel that they've chosen the correct implementation; essentially 'first come, first served'.
If someone has already offered to sell at anything over 50 ISK and you offer to buy at anything under 100 ISK, you should expect them to jump at the chance - which is where my other arguments about not protecting players from their mistakes comes in. |
nStedt
X Gate Industris STR8NGE BREW
0
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Posted - 2012.04.07 08:27:00 -
[56] - Quote
OP, you should petition this. If its an obivous mistake then CCP is likely to reverse all or some the transactions, or reimburse you in some other way.
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Czeris
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.04.07 09:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
Don't Drink and Eve. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
538
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Posted - 2012.04.07 17:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
Raphael Celestine wrote: My mistake, I misunderstood your previous post.
Fair enough, no harm done.
As for protecting player's from mistakes, typos etc. We'll just have to disagree. |
Ank Parkor
WildSpace Otters
15
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Posted - 2012.04.07 19:38:00 -
[59] - Quote
All right. I began to make my money back trading implants.
Being targeted multiple times around Jita I was thinking how it is a good idea to fly a fast frigate to haul these precious things. Hey! You can't lock me and shoot before I warp light years away!
Approaching Perimeter Stargate with some implants in my cargo, while still in warping, I see the notifications icon blinking. Hmmm? Storyline mission? Not exactly, I wake up in my clone and see horified that I have been smartbombed by an Armaggeddon. A good move, nothing to say.
Do you ever had the feeling to be cursed? Cause I do.
Short time trader, short term missioner, long term ambitions. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
538
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Posted - 2012.04.07 19:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ank Parkor wrote:Perimeter Stargate
Use Soba gate. |
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