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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:46:00 -
[1]
the surplus of ravens will last for decades! most produced ship in game, no demand at all... imagine the situation, the will become the relic weapon of the pre Quantum age.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:00:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Mu Yaling
Some of you guys makes me wonder if youre able to tie your own shoe laces. I have 9mill SP in missiles, 500k in drones. Its true killing a frigate with cruise missiles arent viable anymore. But even without a target painter, my drones kills frigates with no problems at all. Adding a tp makes it almost more effective than killing them with cruise missiles before the patch.
My main is (or was before i sold him) a 50mill sp minmatarr. Doing missions now with my CNR are still way more effective than with his Vargur.
I guess the problem is that Caldaris are not used to think about their setups or how to use the ships. For them its allways been F1-F6- activate shield booster. Now they have to F1-activate TP-Launch drones-Activate shield booster Thats two more steps for them.
Anyway, missiles are fine. Stop crying.
please, make a separate thread that supports missile nerf, here we gather to show the bad sides of the new system, we do not want argue that you may like it in fact.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Mallikan
Fail topic is still fail.
Adapt?
fail poster is a joke gone wrong, we want CCP to adapt to us, we are the most numerous race
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:02:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nikolae Varius
Oh god *pants*
I love the tears *licks tears of carebears*
Oh its so delicious
perverts this way >>> *move along
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Opertone on 13/11/2008 23:05:47
Originally by: Becq Starforged
"Yeah, but battleships are supposed to suck against frigates lolol"
This really makes no sense. I enjoyed the effectiveness of the Raven in missions, and it's sad to lose that, but I understand the reasoning behind balancing missiles to reduce effectiveness against undersized targets. But now missiles appear useless against even the targets they are intended to work against.
QFT
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:08:00 -
[6]
can't you understand his frustration? don't laugh at him, his showing us the right way of protest!
on his ashes will burn the flame of revolution!
The revolt against the old system and a new system to come...
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:10:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dirk Mortice
Originally by: Opertone
we want CCP to adapt to us, we are the most numerous race
and this is why I hope CCP leaves you to rot 
enjoy the nano nerf! muhahahaha
we can make the things better together, why do you want me to rot? Rise up! Overthrow the nano nerf!
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.15 23:53:00 -
[8]
torpedoes do not hit battleships for full damage with a target painter... neither do cruise...
am i supposed to do it in my drake? or to go into 15 km range, while my ships is built for the long range?
I love the nano slow down, frigate boost part... but I do not understand why missiles needed to be nerfed further.
All battleships essentially became less viable in PVP, while HACs can now take less damage by speed and by size. Stealth HAC boost, obvious AF boost, blatant BS nerf. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.16 23:30:00 -
[9]
missiles need a boost
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.17 02:11:00 -
[10]
with current system missiles could use + 20% explo velocity boost, so they can be viable on non caldari ships.
something has to do be done about very low explosion velocity, but the new systems works, not perfectly yet, so there is still the need for fixes. |
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.21 01:38:00 -
[11]
i am happy with TORPs vs BS in missions, ok with BC and cruisers
HACs, AFs, Interceptors make me mad; i want missiles to be useful at all ranges in PVP.
turrets have always performed better than missiles, drones are still more versatile than missiles.
explosion velocities are too low, need a 25% boost at least, new formula does work |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.21 01:40:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Opertone on 21/11/2008 01:40:50
double post is wrong, missiles can improve |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 10:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: ScEmAl
I tried a mission after all the complaints about the missile nerf.
Full Disclosure - I am a 4 year vet (no breaks in that time) with several elite missile related certs (check bio). I fly faction and/or T2 Raven's (Golems CNR'S) and I use mainly T2 Cruise Launchers on missions (swapping out between regular and precision ordinance). I do target paint and web frigs. I am PvP skilled (completely irrelevant?)
I really did not see that big a difference in the missions. Same basic time to complete. Same basic damage to frigates. Not a big change. I was relieved to be honest. You all had me freaked out.
Maybe this nerf is aimed at the 6 month old newbs flying Ravens into Lvl4's still wet behind the ears? Makes fair sense since it takes years to fly other ships competently.
Golem features +25% explosion velocity which i was talking about... NPC rats go from 150 m/s to 450 m/s. Typical torpedo explosion velocity is near 110 m/s - hence damage reduction.
Before QR, my cruise missiles and torpedoes would instapop frigates and 3 volley elite frigates with the help of two target painters. No i only do 80-120 volley damage, the frigates normally have 1000-1200 HP... may take as many as 10 volleys.
I could paint the cruisers really hard and instapop them, now I only do 1200 volley damage. Takes 4 volleys to take down a cruiser. Only 600 DMG to HAC, they repair like insane... takes 8 volleys to destroy HACs.
Only one target painter was needed to instapop a battlecruiser, now dual painters, web drone and you may still need 2 volleys to finish it.
I can deal 3600 volley damage to a typical Battleship in missions, but only after I have applied a target painter and a webbing drone, as many battleships go above 120 m/s up to 165 m/s and therefore my damage is reduced from 2700 - 3200 for a moving target. It takes me 3 volleys to kill a 500 k bounty battleship, then 4 volleys for 800 k bounty and finally 7 volleys for 1,2 mill bounty ships. Still killing best bounty battleship takes less ammo than downing a HAC in missions.
Some NPC speed rebalancing or +25% to all missile explosion velocities is needed. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:46:00 -
[14]
this is not the point! I said that all missiles need to receive +25% to explosion velocities, as they are very impractical for PVP without tackle support. Especially on non caldari ships with missile hardpoints.
It seems to me that CCP started rebalance with top quality implants in mind, because at level 1 skills missile damage is largely insufficient, at lvl 5 skills it is not at the full potential, and only with tech 1 rigs and implants it closes 90% of what the damage should be.
All missiles need +25% improvement to explosion velocities, otherwise they are pathetic against 'speed' tanked targets of the same class... if a Battleship goes 350 m/s and has 70% resists, then Missile pilot often has no chance to catch the target with webs and does 70% less due to resists and 60% less due to speed reduction ending up with 12% of the original damage. Turret weapons perform better in this case against targets of the same size. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:10:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Opertone on 24/11/2008 10:10:39
only when the speed tanker is in orbit, the tighter the orbit the more tracking problems occur, at 12 km range a web can be applied, so the orbit is anywhere between 15 km and 30 km... further than that the angular speed isn't sufficient.
Missiles suffer damage at all ranges, normally 6 mid slots do not allow a web, the target has to go in straight line in any direction to get reduced damage.
Same weapon class needs to be able to hit same ship size for the full damage with proper support skills and fittings. However it takes more than that for missile user now, besides close range tackle isn't possible.
Boost explosion velocities by 25% and it will be possible again, or give us more medium slots in exchange for low slots, which can not be used for anything other than Power Diagnosis System. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 12:01:00 -
[16]
raven slot lay out is outrageous 6/2(8) / 6 / 5 - what am i supposed to put in my low slots which helps me? Any tank takes 4 slots normally, lows aren't suitable for armor tank or speed tank, the best that can go there is 2 DMG mods and 3 fitting mods.
No other ship in game has to use fitting mods because there is nothing to put in. Ravnes do, PVP setups often involve PDS, DCU and BCS for maxx efficiency.
In the end there are 2 mids slots to be used after 4 slot tank has been applied, what can go in there?
Ammar ships have following layout 8/2(8) / 4 / 7 - a 4 slot tank goes into lows, allowing for 2 DMG mods and a DCU. Then there is enough powergrid, without the need for fitting mods, and 4 slots in the mid allow for a speed module, tackle module, capacitor injector and ECCM/electronics.
now why do ravens need 2 turret harpoints? Why do ravens have 2 mids slots with classic 4 tank module layout? Why do ravens need 5 low slots filled with fitting modules? And more importantly why do we have 0% EM hole? To cover it up 2 EM hardeners or 3 invulnerabilities may not be enough, leaving us with 75% EM resists. Armor tankers can get higher than that on their lowest resist.
Scorpion is a better concept, with 4/4(6) / 8 / 4 slot layout, but is not a damage dealer by any means, 3 turrets 3 missiles will not give enough DPS. Golem is much better for this matter, it has outstanding damage and 4(6) / 7 / 4 slot layout - more appropriate for caldari.
My say is that caldari don't need the crappy low slots at all. And that ship design is flawed. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 00:00:00 -
[17]
missiles lose damage if target velocity exceeds missile explosion velocity by 10-30%, you loose 25%-50% damage.
All missiles do need +25% explosion velocity balance, or it is impractical to fire missiles without specialized rigs and implants. Missiles had a lot of drawbacks before, but explosion velocities this low are beyond reasonable. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Patent Pending
... the only way to get the target slowed down is by using THE slowest drones in the game (web drones) which have a max range of 50km (base max control range) .. or by using a midslot webber module... max range 10km.
Just how stupider can you possibly get CCP? All missiles are now effectively lowered to 10km range if they want to do any dps worth mentioning -or- have to waste 2 to 3 highslots for drone range links to use webber drones from long range (100km+) AND wait 20+ seconds for the drone to get there and THEN wait 22+ seconds for the missiles to get there on top of that.
this man speaks wisdom, indeed we need to use undersized missiles and still are unable to deal full damage at all ranges for the designed target.
we need 25% explosion velocity bonus to all missiles so it translates to 120 m/s explosion velocity with lvl 5 skills on cruise and 150 m/s explosion velocity with flare rigs. Even then damage is not going to be enough, but not pathetic for targets that go without any speed mod.
If the target goes 150 m/s and cruise explosion velocity is 110 m/s 45% of damage is cut down, if target goes 300 m/s, then 75% of damage is cut down. And we are talking about same size targets, signature radius should mean more than explosion velocity to help small ships survive, because actually Battleships can move as fast as a tech 1 frigate, but the damage reduction inadequate.
Can we have missiles that do full damage on same size targets and oversized ones? or at least within 70-100% depending on environment, not 25-80% cap. |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:33:00 -
[19]
missiles are fubared
23:25:07 Combat Group of Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo hit Pith Usurper for 3142 damage.
23:23:04 Combat Group of Juggernaut Rage Torpedo hit Pith Usurper for 2969 damage.
CN torp explosion velocity 117,73 m/s, explosion radius 450 m, DMG 705.57575 HP, damage reduction factor
Rage torp explosion velocity 101.15 m/sec, explosion radius 650 m, DMG 786.096 HP, damage reduction factor 5.2
target Pith usurper, 700 m signature, 92 m/s velocity, painted with 34,5% bonus, webbed with dual SW-900
where is the magic? |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 11:48:00 -
[20]
stop arguing, transversal velocity is the wrong parameter!
angular speed is what affects your targeting... your guns have tracking 0.0433, your target has angular speed 0.0867.
your guns will have tracking problems, but if the target is large enough gun signature resolution 400 m and target signature is 1800 m, you will have a decent chance to hit it.
if the target is small 180 m, you may still hit it occasionally, because it is within optimal + falloff, the numbers are very small but not absolute 0.
transversal debate is wrong and belongs to another topic, please don't forget that to properly account for transversal speed you need to know the distance to the target, simply where angular is more obvious measurement, which shows angle per second.
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 15:57:00 -
[21]
not to be captain obvious, what do you think CCP did to your missiles?
F***ed with missiles again
Fiddled, failed, fiasco
hmmm, does this answer the question of the original poster? |
Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 14:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 28/11/2008 04:01:02
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 28/11/2008 03:57:13
Cross train to Amarr my Caldari allies.
As an Ammarrian I'd just like to say:
Mega Tachyon beams will flatten any cruiser outside around 13km with top skills and we murder dozens of frigates like the little insects they are because they are all one shot sniper food even by a single turret in most missions due to them usually being sat 80km away from warp in where turret tracking doesn't mean jack.
Caldari seem to have almost kicked the bucket, if their ewar gets nerfed next aswell then you might aswell scrap the whole race.
So come to Amarr, because now the Apocalypse is worth 2 of the Raven and the Abaddon would murder pretty much any other battleship in the game, letalone the Rokh.
Don't also forget your one off payment for Amarr tech 1 ammo that works great enough to do without tech 2 that lasts forever.
Our days being the underdog seem quite behind us now.
[EDIT1]Oh hang on I haven't took my Amarr Battleship out for a spin since the Quantum Rise patch, too busy lolling at the Raven. Wonder if its tracking got nerfed, bet it did. I'll go have a look.
[EDIT2]No, just seem to be all about missiles, hahahahahahah, sucks for you guys.
brilliant
and now i want to hit BS with cruise, cruisers with heavies and frigates with lights, now please unnerf my rockets.
agreed on ammar |
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