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Can Flipping Yes/No?

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Laiyna	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:32:00 - [1] Hot discused item, curious what you all think about this. (regarding high sec, low sec and 0.0)
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2008.11.12 08:15:00 - [2] No sir, don't like it, not one bit! So I'd love to see a change where the person that flips my can is aggro-ed to me (so I could attack) but while that aggro timer is active I could take back from any can that the "flipper" has WITHOUT them getting aggro rights against me. (this would be in high sec only, in low sec, flip away) Remember, "Stuffs getting better! Stuffs getting better every day! " Issler Dainze CSM Candidate CEO Tadakatsu Obata Corporation Founder of the Honda Accord
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:04:00 - [3] As long as the warning messages around stealing the stuff back are sufficiently strong to inform newbies of what they're risking(which, last I checked, they are), then I have no problem with the rules around can theft/flipping in their current state. If you just dump your junk into space, don't be surprised when somebody takes it and does things with it you don't want done.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:49:00 - [4] Working as intended.
Meissa Anunthiel Redshift Industrial	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:33:00 - [5] Can flipping works fine as far as I'm concerned.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.12 13:11:00 - [6] Originally by: LaVista Vista Working as intended. Quote/Submit. There is no problem with can flipping.
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 16:17:00 - [7] Working as intended... I'd personally like to see unlocked cans floating in space not aggro a character that opens and removes stuff from them. There are lockable cans for a reason. Scoorp to cargo hold etc be useful way of cleaning up some areas of space where poor PvPers drop cans to catch non-combative (generally) players out. If you are stupid enough to leave stuff floating about unlocked, you're stupid enough to lose it...and if you want to shoot starting players to fill killboards and get some sense of worth, target and shoot them without looking to bypass Concord guns. Arithron Vote Arithron for CSM! Check out my thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=899358
Pixel SonursCreen	Posted - 2008.11.12 18:52:00 - [8] can flipping is fine the way it is, same for wrecks as far as im concerned
Gaelenus Gallente Society of the Crimson Flame	Posted - 2008.11.13 01:38:00 - [9] its working the way it is, got to have some risk or else well high sec mining would be unbalanced.
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:45:00 - [10] Hello Laiyna, This is indeed a hot topic, especially for those of us who spend most to all of our time in high-security space. I think something should be done about the widespread canflipping, but not about the process of canflipping itself. Deployable containers should take up less room in the cargohold (about 500 m3, maybe), then expand when anchored and allow for a great deal of stuff to be put in it. These containers could only be accessed when anchored in space, and would have a password as well. The space inside the expandable container should be about 15k m3 (about half of a jetcan, but still enough to get you by for quite some time). Shooting it would trigger Concord, so it'd still be a risk using one of these flimsy units in low-security space over the more stable Giant Secure Containers. The practice of canflipping is an old system, and is working as intended. There should be more options open for the enterprising miner, but it shouldn't impede time-honored techniques used in the game. -Bunyip "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Joethelions Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Issler Dainze No sir, don't like it, not one bit! So I'd love to see a change where the person that flips my can is aggro-ed to me (so I could attack) but while that aggro timer is active I could take back from any can that the "flipper" has WITHOUT them getting aggro rights against me. (this would be in high sec only, in low sec, flip away) Remember, "Stuffs getting better! Stuffs getting better every day! " Issler Dainze CSM Candidate CEO Tadakatsu Obata Corporation Founder of the Honda Accord I'm telling everyone I know to NOT vote for you because of that.
DjLowballer Amarr FLASHTROOPER CORP	Posted - 2008.11.14 09:37:00 - [12] Its common sense that if you sit something unprotected out in space people will come and take it. I am a fairly experienced miner and I have never had a can flip. Why? because when I see somebody warp into my belt I do two things: First I call in my hauler to pick stuff up, Second I hail the approaching pilot to let them know I am not a macro miner. Seriously, most of the can flippers will leave you alone if you have the courtesy to give them a heads up. Those that are not looking for macros will generally leave you be because a proactive target is less likely to be an easy ore snatch. I think this system works as intended, forcing cooperation between players. Please Vote DjLowballer as your delegate to the CSM!
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2008.11.15 12:27:00 - [13] Never had anyone flip my can to get agro in 0.0, they just kill you straight out. Seriously, according to the backsstory of the game- everything you do has danger-risk-consequences associated to it in space. That's why I play. I have been can flipped tons of times, and no I don't like it, but that's the risk of mining anywhere in this game. Suggestions- Join a corp that offers some security for their miners Use a GSC Get an alt that can warp in and close the deal Change your subscription to Second Life and cry no more
JafoPBCFR One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.11.15 14:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Joethelions Originally by: Issler Dainze No sir, don't like it, not one bit! So I'd love to see a change where the person that flips my can is aggro-ed to me (so I could attack) but while that aggro timer is active I could take back from any can that the "flipper" has WITHOUT them getting aggro rights against me. (this would be in high sec only, in low sec, flip away) Remember, "Stuffs getting better! Stuffs getting better every day! " Issler Dainze CSM Candidate CEO Tadakatsu Obata Corporation Founder of the Honda Accord I'm telling everyone I know to NOT vote for you because of that. QFE on this. im not a can Flipper i have a Miner alt that Doesnt Can mine unless we have a Mining OP. Its a Mechanic i find Part of the game that Makes it Interesting and Adds.
John Declan	Posted - 2008.11.16 03:31:00 - [15] Shoot someone in high sec, get Concorded. Flip someone in high sec, it's up to you to enforce the law. Why should an aggressive act have no immediate consequences for the can-flipper other than the possibility of getting shot at? Can-flippers are jonesing for a fight, often against someone inferior to them. So that their e-peen can grow. I watch them. Often they will warp in with a passive targeter, ship scan, go back to station, refit, then return to flip. My suggestion is simply this: so called can-flipper should take a security hit for engaging in aggressive behavior. Everyone gets to keep their cherished mechanism. Like suicide ganking, the penalties will get stiffer as you transition from low sec to high sec and also based on the standing difference between the flipper and the victim.
lucifers widow	Posted - 2008.11.16 11:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Can flipping works fine as far as I'm concerned. Not working well atm, people seemed to of stopped fighting back !
lucifers widow	Posted - 2008.11.16 11:41:00 - [17] Originally by: John Declan Can-flippers are jonesing for a fight, often against someone inferior to them. So that their e-peen can grow. I watch them. Often they will warp in with a passive targeter, ship scan, go back to station, refit, then return to flip. lolwut. We.. err mean they warp in get a bm, warpout, wait a min or two then warp back in on can, there is not much point in knowing how many mining upgrades or miner 2's the target has
Delfin Dawn Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.16 12:33:00 - [18] I think some thing should be dun about can flipping. I rather like John Declans idea.
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2008.11.16 15:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher Never had anyone flip my can to get agro in 0.0, they just kill you straight out. Seriously, according to the backsstory of the game- everything you do has danger-risk-consequences associated to it in space. That's why I play. I have been can flipped tons of times, and no I don't like it, but that's the risk of mining anywhere in this game. Suggestions- Use a GSC Worst suggestion ever.....
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:17:00 - [20] Originally by: John Declan Shoot someone in high sec, get Concorded. Flip someone in high sec, it's up to you to enforce the law. Why should an aggressive act have no immediate consequences for the can-flipper other than the possibility of getting shot at? Do you get a ticket for going through somebody's garbage? Jetcans are not intended for storage of your crap in space, and the Devs have already stated this, ad nauseum. Originally by: John Declan Can-flippers are jonesing for a fight, often against someone inferior to them. So that their e-peen can grow. I watch them. Often they will warp in with a passive targeter, ship scan, go back to station, refit, then return to flip. I'm confused. Exactly how do you know they have a passive targeter and ship scanner, unless you're scanning them yourself? Are you? Originally by: John Declan My suggestion is simply this: so called can-flipper should take a security hit for engaging in aggressive behavior. No. Keep a better watch on your trash. We're Recruiting!
Cyprus Black Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:25:00 - [21] Without the ability to can flip, the market for deployable cargo containers would drop off to almost nothing. They'd become near useless when a player can create a much larger one for free. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review.
John Declan	Posted - 2008.11.18 09:12:00 - [22] Edited by: John Declan on 18/11/2008 09:17:20 Edited by: John Declan on 18/11/2008 09:13:02 Quote: Do you get a ticket for going through somebody's garbage? Jetcans are not intended for storage of your crap in space, and the Devs have already stated this, ad nauseum. Go post in C&P if you want to engage in trolling behavior. Jetcans have a timer. This the mechanism intended to keep people from storing "crap" in space. Anyways, I digress. Stick to the topic next time. Furthermore, it was a suggestion. An idea. Something to be improved upon. In the spirit of the CSM... for the improvement of EVE for ALL.
Piitaq Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.11.18 11:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Cyprus Black Without the ability to can flip, the market for deployable cargo containers would drop off to almost nothing. They'd become near useless when a player can create a much larger one for free. Deployable containers ARE useless for mining purposes, they can hold 1-2 cycles of ORE on a T2 fitted hulk. I think the "Huge" and "Giant" cans should be bigger as their names imply, and maybe more expensive also. Can flipping is a way for wannabe PvPers to grief noob carebears. Only thing it does, is people drop mining and do missions, zero risk and decent rewards. The only people mining in high sec is people running a macro script, more or less.
Khoda Khan Minmatar Madar Kheyl tribe Zantiu-Braun Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 11:46:00 - [24] Jetcans were never meant to be used by miners as a method of storing vast amounts of ore in space. It was for this very reason why at one point taking from a can did not even trigger an aggression flag, and why at one point CCP said this would NOT change despite the protests of highsec miners. Eventually CCP did change this and the situation became even worse for miners as they began not only losing their ore but their ships as well. As the complaints of jetcan miners continue even today I caution the complainers that not all change is good, nor does all change have the intended consequences. Tens of thousands of mining vessels have been destroyed as a result of the changes stemming from the last batch of complaints. !Khoda
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.11.18 13:34:00 - [25] Originally by: John Declan Go post in C&P if you want to engage in trolling behavior. Jetcans have a timer. This the mechanism intended to keep people from storing "crap" in space. Anyways, I digress. Stick to the topic next time. I am on topic my friend, and I'll tell you where to take your 'trolling' comment. Your idea is malformed, as it also nerfs the abilities of other non-Corpmates from removing stuff from a jetcan without taking a sec hit. Many Corporations use non-Corpmates for the transfer of materials from jetcans, and with your idea, you make that impossible. Sure, you can throw out the 'gang mechanic' as a possible solution, but my point remains - jetcans are simply 'garbage cans in space'. They are not, and should not, be policed by anyone except the owner. We're Recruiting!
John Declan	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Many Corporations use non-Corpmates for the transfer of materials from jetcans, and with your idea, you make that impossible. Sure, you can throw out the 'gang mechanic' as a possible solution. I have quoted you and removed points not relevant to the dicussion at hand. For the improvement of ALL remains the point of this. You have a single point here, with a possible solution. Anybody else want to suggest something constructive regarding can-flipping?
Gidgiddonah	Posted - 2008.11.18 19:48:00 - [27] From the posts in this thread so far it seems fairly obvious that many people in the game want to be able to bait people into PvP, or simply scoop jetcans, as per the current system. I'd suggest that's an acceptable game mechanic, if they can do it only a finite number of times. A player should not be allowed to flip or bait repeatedly in hi-sec and still maintain a positive security status. And besides, those people who persistently loot should want to migrate to low-sec space as a career goal anyway. I've read that many consider jetcans to be unowned and free to take in principle, and that indeed they used to be that way. But CCP changed that. As it stands now, jetcans are clearly owned and taking from them is clearly looting. (whether or not this is a good thing is outside the scope of this thread) So, what's wrong with having a security status hit for looting? It makes sense, and doesn't break the existing mechanics. Young pirates can train up for a career in piracy in the relative safety of hi-sec, but will eventually migrate to low-sec when their status gets too much into the negative. Additionally, the newbie miners would have a clear visual cue to watch out for the orange pilots in their overview.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.11.19 00:02:00 - [28] Originally by: John Declan Anybody else want to suggest something constructive regarding can-flipping? You missed the obvious from my posts. 1.) Working as intended. 2.) Get over it. 3.) These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along. Move along.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.11.19 03:14:00 - [29] I'd like to see the jet-can mining issues solved along these lines: Create a new can type ('protected mining can') that can be carried packaged by most ships, and when launched unpackages itself into a semi-secure can that can hold an amount similar to a jet-can. Like the existing secure cans, the owner can set a password to limit access; unlike current secure cans, these cans are vulnerable to those with hacking skill. They should be a challenge to hack, so that hacking takes some time but is not impossible. Any attempt to hack the can (successful or not) counts as aggression. Furthermore, once hacking starts, the can's security system locks down the can completely, so that nobody can access the can while hacking is occuring. (This prevents the owner from just transferring the can's contents to another can to prevent the theft.) Successfully hacking the can clears the password for fifteen minutes, allowing free access to the contents (though the can's ownership does not change). This would create a situation where ore-thieves can still engage in ore theft (albeit with a higher skill training requirement, thus eliminating newly-created and disposable alts from the profession), yet miners have the opportunity to defend their property, either by calling in reinforcements, switching to a combat ship, or racing against the thief to unload the can once it's hacked. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
John Declan	Posted - 2008.11.19 09:14:00 - [30] Edited by: John Declan on 19/11/2008 09:14:33 Originally by: Becq Starforged I'd like to see the jet-can mining issues solved along these lines: Create a new can type ('protected mining can') that can be carried packaged by most ships, and when launched unpackages itself into a semi-secure can that can hold an amount similar to a jet-can. Like the existing secure cans, the owner can set a password to limit access; unlike current secure cans, these cans are vulnerable to those with hacking skill. They should be a challenge to hack, so that hacking takes some time but is not impossible. Any attempt to hack the can (successful or not) counts as aggression. Furthermore, once hacking starts, the can's security system locks down the can completely, so that nobody can access the can while hacking is occuring. (This prevents the owner from just transferring the can's contents to another can to prevent the theft.) Successfully hacking the can clears the password for fifteen minutes, allowing free access to the contents (though the can's ownership does not change). This would create a situation where ore-thieves can still engage in ore theft (albeit with a higher skill training requirement, thus eliminating newly-created and disposable alts from the profession), yet miners have the opportunity to defend their property, either by calling in reinforcements, switching to a combat ship, or racing against the thief to unload the can once it's hacked. Interesting idea. Perhaps our soon to be appointed CSM candidates can use the ideas set forth for discussion.

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