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Kitchie
Gallente
Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:22:00 -
[1]
Hi,
I've been a lurker on MD for quite a while now. Not meaning to compliment the locals but I find it the most intelligent of the forums. 'Nuff said...
But what makes a scammer? One who make an issue, takes the money and runs without any intention of doing anything - definitely!
One who starts with good intentions but fails on their business model? Hmmm....
Sadly I've been investing in RL stocks, audited companies, a good rating by the int'l rating agencies and generally respected.
Several just "Epic Failed"......
Ok, not scammers, but I've lost real money. The model failed, the global GMs failed to balance, the patches didn't work, OMG EMORAGEQUIT but quiting RL is terminal....
Can't help wondering how RL Bonds and IPOs would stand up to the brutal analysis the MD warriors... Do we need you out there in RL? 
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:27:00 -
[2]
For me, it's when someone knowingly misrepresents an offered good, service, or investment in order to get a far higher price for it than they normally could.
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Ryuga VonRhaiden
Caldari
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:29:00 -
[3]
i've lost a lot of money on a guy that packed a lot of freshly bought freighter BPOs on an autopiloting shuttle and got suicide-killed...
not always you lose money for scamming... there are enough people that are either totally unaware of Eve Online game mechanics, or just incompetent... and still unpredictable **** happens, patches can make your high profit job totally fail (I.E. you were building polycars before the speed rebalance announcement, and had still lots of unsold rigs after that are worth 1/10th they were some months ago) or make your well-run low profit job rock high (I.E. you just bought a useless but cheap t2 scrambler BPO before the same announcement)
Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:40:00 -
[4]
There differences between scammers and failures.
SCAMMER
A person who takes your money through deception with a plan to steal it.
A person can also evolve into a scammer. If a person is running a successful business but then leaves without warning or explanation so investor money is lost they are also scammer. Fastlearner is now in that catergory. If he had posted about how he failed and returned as much ISK as he could a lot of people would understand, now he will just get attacked.
FAILURES
Some people fail at their IPO and investors lose their cash. This can be for a variety of reasons, war decs, incompetance (autopilot shuttle with BPO's in), too much work, etc..
These people didn't SCAM but we wouldn't invest again.
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Ren Tales
Armored Phalanx
Worlds Merchant Directorates
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:44:00 -
[5]
Heya Kitchie,
I think the many users of the MD forums are already familiar with the real world of stocks, bonds and IPO's, this is what knowledge they bring to the game, which allows them to be such critics of in-game IPO's and stocks.
In the real world, you won't find as many companies trying to just take your money and run; Why? Because it's illegal and anyone who does this will be caught, jailed and/or fined heavily.
As to the second question in your post, real world IPO's, stocks and bonds are much harder to understand, and have many variables which a market simulation game such as eve does not have. One of the main reasons for this is because real world accounting practices can be "manipulated", there are ways of hiding problems.
In the recent financial crisis in the United States, which may be what you are talking about, risky mortgages were being bought up, these mortgages were labeled Assets, receivables on balance sheets, whereas many of them should have been labeled Liabilities(the opposite of assets). Could this crisis have been forseen? Yes, of course, with a close auditing by real world auditors, but this is not as common an occurance as you would think.
With that said, I am not trying to say MD locals can not deal with the real life stock market, I'm sure many of them have stocks, it was that knowledge that they brought to this game.
Enjoy!
Ren Tales
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Want to learn how to yar? Want to teach young pirates?
Subtle Romance is Recruiting
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:57:00 -
[6]
As Ren alluded, Eve lacks some of the social control mechanisms that real life has, such as working criminal and civil courts. Since these social control mechanisms are absent, characters engage in in-game activities that their real life players never would.
MDD
Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:08:00 -
[7]
What? You mean, I can go out and scam, kill, loot without consequences? This is new...
10% for Returning Customers |
Chu Ran
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:23:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Brock Nelson
What? You mean, I can go out and scam, kill, loot without consequences? This is new...
Isn't that what 99% of Eve players do anyway?
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CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: cosmoray
A person can also evolve into a scammer. If a person is running a successful business but then leaves without warning or explanation so investor money is lost they are also scammer. Fastlearner is now in that catergory. If he had posted about how he failed and returned as much ISK as he could a lot of people would understand, now he will just get attacked.
Another good example: Admiral Eos in this thread. Allthough he made the first few dividend payments he has gone MIA with 2bil in principal. Maybe he didn't intend on scamming, but the lack of effort to clean up the mess makes it seem like a scam.
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Kitchie
Gallente
Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.13 09:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CornerStoner
Originally by: cosmoray
A person can also evolve into a scammer. If a person is running a successful business but then leaves without warning or explanation so investor money is lost they are also scammer. Fastlearner is now in that catergory. If he had posted about how he failed and returned as much ISK as he could a lot of people would understand, now he will just get attacked.
Another good example: Admiral Eos in this thread. Allthough he made the first few dividend payments he has gone MIA with 2bil in principal. Maybe he didn't intend on scamming, but the lack of effort to clean up the mess makes it seem like a scam.
Leaving the game I hadn't thought of. Not quite so easy to do in RL. Not uncommon for an owner to try and asset strip a company before it goes bust in RL though....
On the other hand, I was also thinking of scams like Currin Trading. Now that was Pyramid selling scam that was copied 100% from the real world and applied to Eve.
EIB had more grey areas. I'm sure I heard Dentara Rast claim that it wasn't always intended to be a scam but that everything started crashing down after Currin went on his "EIB Scam" crusade. Still, if everyone had known that Cally was Dentara Rast, would anybody have trusted it in the first place?
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.13 09:13:00 -
[11]
This should've been audited by someone from MD beforehand 
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The Vixen
Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ryuga VonRhaiden
i've lost a lot of money on a guy that packed a lot of freshly bought freighter BPOs on an autopiloting shuttle and got suicide-killed...
not always you lose money for scamming... there are enough people that are either totally unaware of Eve Online game mechanics, or just incompetent...
And you think you weren't scammed?
Who's the incompetent one there. 
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Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kitchie
Leaving the game I hadn't thought of. Not quite so easy to do in RL. Not uncommon for an owner to try and asset strip a company before it goes bust in RL though....
On the other hand, I was also thinking of scams like Currin Trading. Now that was Pyramid selling scam that was copied 100% from the real world and applied to Eve.
EIB had more grey areas. I'm sure I heard Dentara Rast claim that it wasn't always intended to be a scam but that everything started crashing down after Currin went on his "EIB Scam" crusade. Still, if everyone had known that Cally was Dentara Rast, would anybody have trusted it in the first place?
Back when the EIB scam hit there wasn't the tools in place that there are today - mainly the eve API which would have likely revealed the link between Cally and Rast.
From what I remember before the EIB scandal hit, Dentara Rast was a well known griefer/pirate so I imagine that if we had the API then, the EIB couldn't have grown like it did as people would have known who the man behind Cally was.
There was talk at the time, and I think maybe in some evidence the auditor didn't publicly release that Currin Trading and Dentara Rast were actually the same person and It was all part of some 'social experiment'.
Another key factor was that the market for investments/banking etc was in it's infancy so the tell tale signs were not as obvious as they are today so people made stupid mistakes. As a GM so elegantly put it 'This guy just asked for people's money and they gave him it. I mean, would you?'.
Today it would have been shot down in an instant like so many requests for money that find there way on this forum are.
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