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Eran Mintor
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Eran Mintor on 12/11/2008 22:20:43
(wasn't sure where to put this, move as needed)
It's no big secret, the only time plexes respawn correctly is when the server comes back online after a downtime.
Link to Greyscale's comments
 Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Unfortunately yes, there is a DT-related mechanic...Without this mechanic, the natural redistribution of sites will inevitably cause them to pile up in non-spawnable systems, which is highly undesirable, and the distributor isn't currently capable of elegantly handling the problem on its own. A downtime reshuffle was the best compromise we could find between server performance and optimal behaviour.
So it sounds to me like the server was incapable of handling a more effective (read; fair) mechanic that would allow plexes to be reallocated 23/7. With this current mechanic, it's possible for post-DT players to completely sway the outcome of faction warfare by focusing their efforts on plexing during the initial hours after downtime. This is how Ezzara fell, and now how Kourmonen has fallen as well. This mechanic makes FW very static during any time other than post-DT, and also makes it very predictable. You could expect there to be 0-1 plexes spawned in Kourmonen during the 22 hours after initial server start-up, while expecting atleast 10 plexes in Kourmonen in the first hour at start-up.
Everyone is aware of this flawed mechanic. Minmatar militia have known of it for some time now, however we were rarely in the position to exploit it such as the Amarr militia has. The hours leading up to the QR extended downtime, there was an unexpected server crash that resulted in a short DT, and effectively respawned Kourmonen. 3 plexes were found in Kourm after this unexpected DT and we were able to capture 2/3. In the hours after QR was released, 7 plexes were captured in our favor, out of maybe 8 or 9. We almost put the system out of decontested.
Yet I wake up the next morning to find that the Amarr have not only captured another 9 plexes required to negate our work from the day before, but had to have captured another 2-3 to put it into "Vulnerable" status. I'm not fretting over the fact we lost Kourmonen, I knew it was only a matter of time since the Amarr have had the DT-mechanic in their favor for weeks now. What I am complaining about is the excuse used by CCP to warrant this mechanic. If the server's couldn't handle it pre-QR, what about now that you have your "amazing" 64 bit servers and stackless IO? Can we expect some changes w/ FW mechanics soon? Please?
This mechanic is killing FW. You need the plexes in these hotly contested systems to spawn throughout the day, not only to make it fair and playable to your subscribers across the globe (I'm not staying up till 5 AM to plex, f!@# that, I'll quit FW if u suckers keep giving us the cold-shoulder.), but to incite good PVP in those plexes.
Those who agree with me are welcome to sign this, those who don't can shove it up their arse.
edit: fixed link
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Eran Mintor
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:16:00 -
[2]
/signed
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Nanker Phelge
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:18:00 -
[3]
/signed
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:21:00 -
[4]
The mechanic is highly annoying. As I described in the linked thread, it basically means the side with the better presence after DT is always going to have a major advantage - they'll have an easier time defending newly-captured systems, and an easier time re-taking lost systems.
It doesn't particularly matter how it is fixed, though, as long as it removes the extreme advantage of having a stronger fleet right after downtime.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:24:00 -
[5]
What was wrong with the other thread?
"If the server's couldn't handle it pre-QR, what about now that you have your "amazing" 64 bit servers and stackless IO? Can we expect some changes w/ FW mechanics soon? Please?"
Those were actually deployed weeks ago, not yesterday. If the servers couldn't handle it before yesterday, they couldn't handle with the stuff you mentioned (I don't think all nodes are 64 bit btw).
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:29:00 -
[6]
/signed
This issue needs to be looked at. While I have previously taken advantage of this mechanic, I think it is flawed and extra effort needs to go into finding a workable replacement modus operanti - and that isn't easy when there aren't obvious better ideas at this stage.
Scagga is running for the CSM, see his campaign thread to know of his standpoints! |
Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:30:00 -
[7]
Hmm, didn't know about this. It certainly makes some sense.
/signed
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Danillo Z
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:31:00 -
[8]
signed
Maybe if plex capturing only became available when a certain number of militia is online each side.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:36:00 -
[9]
I agree completely that's it pretty irritating. All significant capture actions have occured shortly after DT, I think all the systems recaptured by the Amarr were within 2 hours after DT. For myself, I'm rarely able to play shortly after DT, and thus cannot participate in any significant FW battles.
However, the DT mechanic does give a clear focus to capture actions, rather than the idioticially boring and time consuming scanning/plexing, which, in over 90% of the cases, does not lead to any PvP. The hour after DT actually means something, for you will have to actually fight to prevent something nasty from happening, which is good.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Tsual
Minmatar
Iikhelahii khulemah'lal
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:40:00 -
[10]
Has the suggestion be made that plexes act like probes just not that they allow a part of space to be scanned instead they allow part of space to be marked as "occupied by" with an actuall influence sphere ?
********************
Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:50:00 -
[11]
/signed. The current state of the FW complex spawn mechanic is broken, and CCP recognizes that, but considers fixing it too much of a chore. FW has so much unrealized potential, don't let it continue dying a slow death because you're too busy coming up with the next expansion content.
Oh, and get a move on with alliance access to FW.
--
Becq Starforged
Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Maasai Tribal Products
Independent Faction
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:58:00 -
[12]
/signed |
Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:00:00 -
[13]
/signed
We all new Kourm was gonna fall due to faulty mechanics, it was just a matter of time. If the fact that There are no plexes available in kourm 21-22 hours of the 23 the server is running is not an issue for you, I don't know what is. Even the bit of RP you where trying to add to plexing lost is appeal the second it happened to be in kourm, the last Minmatar-occupied Amarr system.
Case and point is, after QR-DT 7 plexes where defended with out any contest from the Amarr. Clearly, the only reason they are ahead at this time is this broken mechanic.
Quote:
Neu Bastian
Valklear Guard - CEO
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Shirley Serious
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:12:00 -
[14]
is it mainly the last system in a constellation that is really broken?
and the rest of the time it works "OK" (or at least what passes for OK) ?
Yes.
Yes, I am. |
Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:14:00 -
[15]
Ok I have a few quettions to that as I am not into FW:
Why cant the Minmatar Militia take favor of this, too?/Why can the Amarr?
Do conquered plexes despawn without option to recapture them?
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Akiba Penrose
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:30:00 -
[16]
/signed
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Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
is it mainly the last system in a constellation that is really broken?
and the rest of the time it works "OK" (or at least what passes for OK) ?
Plexing mechanics don't work per constellation, apparently. But the last system in a constellation is the worse. This mechanic favors the defender in that all the plexes due to spawn in occupied systems do so after DT and seem to get lost in other non-occupied systems the rest of the day and thus can't be capped. The less ocupied systems in a region you have the worse the "Ezzara Effect" gets.
Quote:
Neu Bastian
Valklear Guard - CEO
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Derek Medrana
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:06:00 -
[18]
/signed. As a new member to FW, and the hour post downtime = me...in a car....on the way to work........doubly signed.
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Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Ok I have a few quettions to that as I am not into FW:
Why cant the Minmatar Militia take favor of this, too?/Why can the Amarr?
Do conquered plexes despawn without option to recapture them?
Again, it favors the faction that has less occupied systems. Other than that, the Minmatar seem to have fewer pilots at the time and post-DT seems to be the only time the Amarr can roam uncontested.
Quote:
Neu Bastian
Valklear Guard - CEO
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Mukiri
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:36:00 -
[20]
It is not just a matter of the game mechanic on the turning but also on the players around the globe. The specific and limited spawn time means that only certain time zones can truly engage with this and thus means other time zones lose a huge chance at playability.
By setting this time I know for US playwers this makes things a mess. The time right after down time for me, in CST means I can be late for work or play Eve. This means a significant feature of the game is not possible for me to enjoy. Now I am sure I am not the only one so based on the description this means that US players are limited in their ability to enjoy FW play.
I am curious, could not these spawns be random within the 23 hour period? I mean I know sometimes it will stop one time zone from joining but at least this would be fair with everyone having a miss now and then.
FW is a pretty major feature and this is a pretty serious flaw in a major feature. I am really suprised CCP is not openly addressing this FAST! Right now I have 6 friends I am trying to talk into coming back to Eve. ALL of them are only interested due to FW. I can tell you right now I will suggest they wait for this matter to be addressed.
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Vibora BR
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:48:00 -
[21]
/Signed
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:09:00 -
[22]
Nennamalia is the same way - 22 hours of the day, hardly anything there. Right after DT there's always tons of plexes AND it's a hotly contested system. Even though we (the Gallente) are generally better plexers than the Caldari they usually have the upper hand right after DT since it's the slowest time of the day generally and they outnumber us two to one.
If you want proof of the effect that the OP is talking about, just look at the FW stats page, and check out the huge VP spike yesterday on both the Gallente and Minmatar sides as a result of the server coming back up at a more favorable time.
---
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3c509
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:41:00 -
[23]
/signed
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.11.13 02:32:00 -
[24]
unfortunately, plexes have always had this problem, it used to be worse actually. Back when plexes where static, you knew they would spawn after DT...which meant there was a post DT rush to get to the plex, and whoever got in first got the plex. We would all log off on the warpin gate as DT came...then wait out DT.
Exploration hid this a bit. Now you have to find the plex first. But if your main playing time is after DT, you still get your choice of plex. For someone like me, who is American west coast, there really is no point to exploration in most systems.
All plexes need a variable random spawn timer. Time based spawning just leads to camping, farming, and unfair situations.
Originally by: Meridius Dex
I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
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Lebaneur
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Posted - 2008.11.13 06:52:00 -
[25]
/signed
Will not bloody likely quit my day job to fight the Amarr after DT. Middle of the day for EET is just as bad as the middle of the night.
And the problem is cumulating... If we would succeed in taking one of Amarr systems, they would get it back pretty easily using the post-DT exploit, so whats the point?
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Thorvik
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 07:22:00 -
[26]
/Signed
I briefly enjoyed the post QR-DT and wish we could see more of that. We got some good fights, I lost a few ships and all was good. If this mechanic does not get fixed I am with Eran and will quit FW. Plexing is a great way to get to do PvP. The different plex sizes and the restrictions really do a good job of getting the players who fly smaller ships an opportunity to get into a good fight. It's not a bad system, it's just the mechanics that suck. Do something or CCP will lose many Minmatar players to 0.0
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Garr Anders
Minmatar
Thukk U
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Posted - 2008.11.13 07:52:00 -
[27]
/signed
I do think that this might be better put up as issue in the CSM forums to be pushed up higher priority and should also be discussed with alternatives/solutions/new input in the game development forum.
-----
Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet.
- referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Shern
Minmatar
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:28:00 -
[28]
/signed
It does seem unfair that a deciding factor in FW is how many people you can field immediatly after downtime - when many people will be at work... |
Erim Kaluk
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:33:00 -
[29]
/signed
Definately unfair and boring for those of us who are unable to be in game just after DT.
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El Covah
LOCKDOWN.
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:43:00 -
[30]
This whole situation reminds me on old days when we were sitting day by day around DT to camp the 10/10 plex. Those party with the best TZ for doing it then got it. 
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Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.11.13 09:48:00 -
[31]
/signed
It wasn't just a TZ advantage, it was dedication.
Although I appreciate that the Amarr militia was willing to compromise their lives to concentrate their efforts on the DT plexing, and I salute them for such dedication, it's not something many of us can do.
For us, less dedicated, players, this broken mechanic should be fixed.
---------------------------------------
Outface the depths of evil with clarity
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T 2
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:50:00 -
[32]
And I'd like to remind people that are reading that this is not about whining cos we are losing etc. I salute Amarr for being able to have the dedicated people get online after downtime - a true effort and shows dedication to the game.
However this should be addresses same as the POS reinforcement. If all POS'es were to come out of reinforcement right after DT... You get my point? This needs to be addressed and balanced. Factional Warfare is great but this and the fact that Plexing really does not give any rewards is making peeps drop FW.
Best Regards,
T 2
-----------
Member of Tribal Core - fighting for Minmatar Militia.
Death to Amarr; long live the Minmatar Nation.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:58:00 -
[33]
I'm already bringing this up through the CSM and I discussed this at fanfest as well.
At fanfest they were very 'meh' about it and I hope I'll get some better answers when I hand over the official CSM document.
---
NEW MOVIE! CSM Campaign Thread |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:43:00 -
[34]
What a joke, and it is not funny.
----------------
Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:48:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
I'm already bringing this up through the CSM and I discussed this at fanfest as well.
At fanfest they were very 'meh' about it and I hope I'll get some better answers when I hand over the official CSM document.
Awesomesauce
Quote:
Neu Bastian
Valklear Guard - CEO
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Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:05:00 -
[36]
Signed.
I live in Germany and have so-so results when looking for plexes unless it's during the weekend.
Please change this as I am not planning to give up my day job to stare at timers for hours on end.
While I could grind missions for the ISK ang GTCs, without a day job I'd soon be out of power and internet...
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
Angry Fist
Minmatar
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:26:00 -
[37]
These damn broken plex mechanics have ruined my lunch on far too many occasions now.
It has to stop !
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Derek Medrana
As a new member to FW, and the hour post downtime = me...in a car....on the way to work........doubly signed.
 this is what sick days are for right.
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Roderak Pleem
Minmatar
Abandoned Land
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:10:00 -
[39]
I complained in another thread a few weeks back regarding this lousy game mechanic. As a US west coast player, plexing doesn't really exist for me right now. Hard to find things to do in FW right now in the hours before downtime. (read: hard to find war targets to pew pew with as well)
Good to see the same game mechanic finally causes an Eve news item in the Minmatar/Amarr side of the war.. d'oh!
Rod
Regards,
Rod |
Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:20:00 -
[40]
it is possible the OP overestimates the two following components of this issue:
1. CCP's competence
2. CCP cares about the issue
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Tsotha lanti
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:22:00 -
[41]
While I can't vouch for which side of the conflict has more players active immediately after DT (I highly doubt either side has a distinct geographic advantage)as I too am a late night U.S. West Coast player, I can say that i have alot of difficulty finding plex's and it would be nice to find some by randomizing and moving them more. This extends to pretty much any U.S. players as I highly doubt that 4 A.M. + is peak playing time for the majority of US.
As near as i can tell our participation picks up after the work day roughly 4-10p.m. pacific time. Also it would be nice to see some later storyline activities happening in New Eden as I always seem to miss them being asleep then at work during those hours.
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Garr Anders
Minmatar
Thukk U
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:39:00 -
[42]
I copied the original post to the CSM forum for more support and to raise it as issue toward CCP:
Issue - Post-DT FW plex mechanics in a QR world
Please support and sign the issue there so a fix get raised in priority at CCP.
-----
Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet.
- referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Kransthow
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:46:00 -
[43]
lol fw
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar
The Paratwa
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:48:00 -
[44]
CCP, this needs fixed....YESTERDAY.
Paratwa Recruitment |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:39:00 -
[45]
@OP: Ask to have this thread moved to GameDev/Features+Ideas forum. Anything in General Discussion attracts the wrong people and has a tendency to be regarded as a whine rather than a concern.
It is broken no doubt about it, but if it is the lesser of two evils I dread what it might have been if CCP did not make the compromise.
By the tone of what Greyscale said, it seems the issue stems from limitations in the exploration system and its ability to exclude certain systems from rotation. Unless CCP sets about creating a separate system for FW, they will have to rewrite the entire exploration code which I bet won't be easy
The Amarr will definitely push to have Scagga (should he be elected) raise FW as a major topic in the CSM. I will personally do my best to have the DT plex shuffle at the top of the list - mechanics are more important than fluff like rewards in my world (GPS, Aircondition, leather seats etc. are after all useless if a car won't start)
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Nano J
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:23:00 -
[46]
my opinion is this:
i think that the broken mechanic is, itself, a long-term attempt to save FW. consider the eve story line and character base. the game started with the four equal factions, and now that they are at war, it would be hard to carry the four factions if one got virtually depleted. yeah, new players would want to try out all factions; but economically speaking, there is only so much the NPC corps can do to promote it's faction. the solution is to force the war into stalemate until the storyline is changed. without the broken mechanic, the more populated faction would easily overpower. it's all a matter of balance. nonetheless, it still has a massive demoralizing effect to FW. all in all, FW must be resolved, either by the relinquishing of a handicap or a new goal to be set amongst the factions. |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:29:00 -
[47]
Most new players in eve are told to try fw to get into pvp.
Youd think ccp would spend more time on keeping those players in eve paying subs, with making much more out of fw then it is currently, it definately has the potential.
-
Rage is Recruiting
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.01.26 13:56:00 -
[48]
bump for support! |
Joss Sparq
Caldari
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 14:37:00 -
[49]
Since I like to play advocate to the devil every now and again: now for the opinion of someone who isn't obviously backing the Tribal Liberation Force.
Originally by: Jodie Amille
Edited by: Jodie Amille on 17/11/2008 20:46:46
LOL @ minnies crying sadly because they can't blob us all day long and might actually have to fight outnumbered sometimes. Seriously guys, cri moar.
EDIT: To put it a different way: In other words, it's not fair that the plexes spawn when we actually have a chance to capture plexes, but having them spawn during the other 18 hours that *you* outnumber *us* is a-ok.
Found here and though I don't agree with how the argument is presented, I do think they make a decent point. Maybe the TLF players should be focused on getting more post DT Ops rolling out until something (if anything) is actually done about it.
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Dym Wastrell
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Posted - 2009.01.26 14:43:00 -
[50]
I agree its a awful mechanism, but it seems weird to me that you are suggesting that gives certain (in-game) races an advantage.
Is there some significant mapping between Amarr, etc and time-zones? If so, why?
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MirrorGod
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.01.26 15:35:00 -
[51]
/signed, FW is so broke it's basically meaning less to plex as of late. |
Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.26 15:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
I'm already bringing this up through the CSM and I discussed this at fanfest as well.
At fanfest they were very 'meh' about it and I hope I'll get some better answers when I hand over the official CSM document.
Well if I recall correctly some people were suggesting that in future 0.0 Sov warfare should replicate FW mechanics. I certainly hope that that isn't the case after reading about these problems! |
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2009.01.26 17:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dym Wastrell
I agree its a awful mechanism, but it seems weird to me that you are suggesting that gives certain (in-game) races an advantage.
Is there some significant mapping between Amarr, etc and time-zones? If so, why?
It's an interesting point Dym Wastrell but I reckon the crusaders must just have more dedicated people with more flexible working hours.
FOOM were able to take a whole constellation because they were organised and dedicated, despite not being able to plex much post DT.
If POS always came out of reinforced just after DT, then I think that a lot more people would understand just how frustrating this is for those of us who don't have that sort of flexibility.
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Outface the depths of evil with clarity
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