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Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:44:00 - [1] Seriously, target painters are actually useful now. Thank you, that is all. - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:46:00 - [2] Edited by: EnslaverOfMinmatar on 13/11/2008 03:45:53 yes, use target pain-ters to inflict pain on your targets uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:47:00 - [3] Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Edited by: EnslaverOfMinmatar on 13/11/2008 03:45:53 yes, use target pain-ters to inflict pain on your targets Where would the world be without horrible puns? - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:47:00 - [4] My god stop making these threads. Somebody please think of the children. EVE 'Megacorp or STFU' Online
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:49:00 - [5] sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) and while we are at it ................. :) nerf nerf nerf nerf now we have WoW in space 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:50:00 - [6] I'm sorry, i couldn't help myself... I had the unfortunate luck of leaving my corp right before the patch went through, which means i have to listen to all the npc corp mission runners complain about how their missiles don't work anymore and no matter how many times i explain the new formula and give helpful advice they won't shut up... i can't take it anymore! - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Free Ammatar Aid Organisation	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:51:00 - [7] Caldari have got the painters in! hur hur hur hur..
Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Bohoba sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) and while we are at it ................. :) nerf nerf nerf nerf now we have WoW in space you can take it, i promise. If 3mil sp nublets could tank l4's before the patch (and they can, i did back then), you can do it short a midslot after. unless you're a 3 mil sp nublet that is... - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
Anferney Terminal Velocity Inc. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Bohoba sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) You mean we missile users now have to sacrifice tank to fit damage mods just like armor tanks do? OMGS!1!!1! Here it is. Isn't it unique?
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Celeritas 5k Originally by: Bohoba sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) and while we are at it ................. :) nerf nerf nerf nerf now we have WoW in space you can take it, i promise. If 3mil sp nublets could tank l4's before the patch (and they can, i did back then), you can do it short a midslot after. unless you're a 3 mil sp nublet that is... sorry wrong guy not a mission runner just a battle dog with no teath :) 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
Wang LeeMei	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Bohoba sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) and while we are at it ................. :) nerf nerf nerf nerf now we have WoW in space yeah make everything low slot so we can see the alternative: "ZOMFGWTF they nerfed armor tanks"-Threads go play WoW u get nerfed with every expansion that comes out and raises max level cap (long raid / instance runs for equip goin poof with the raise ;) ) so be happy: 1. u still be able to even sit in ur ships OR 2. about the possibility to cross train skills in EvE ;)
Zora Gallente Concealed Intentions	Posted - 2008.11.13 03:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Bohoba sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) and while we are at it ................. :) nerf nerf nerf nerf now we have WoW in space I wouldn't go as far as putting all those modules in low slots, but instead make some kind of new "explosion velocity booster" that goes into low slots, similar to turret tracking computers, which go into med slots. I think that would resolve some of the issues shield tankers have right now.
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2008.11.13 04:03:00 - [13] I used target painters before the nerf without any problems. Pro tip: You don't need to tank the entire damn room in a mission to beat it. You can spare that one mid slot on a Raven and still be able to complete every mission solo. --- My cat Putter approves of this post.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.11.13 04:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Zora Originally by: Bohoba sure give me a mid slot for it or better yet have them low slot so I don't lose my tank, that be the ticket make target painters , webbers and warpdisrupture all low slot so we can enjoy what ammor tankers enjoyed for years and still have a tank.. admit weaker than armor tank but better than losing a mid slot :) and while we are at it ................. :) nerf nerf nerf nerf now we have WoW in space I wouldn't go as far as putting all those modules in low slots, but instead make some kind of new "explosion velocity booster" that goes into low slots, similar to turret tracking computers, which go into med slots. I think that would resolve some of the issues shield tankers have right now. and as i said in a different thread about it already..... give us armor tankers damage mods which do not use our tank slots so we do not need to sacrifice tank slots for moar damage... also give us guns which allways hit at least for some damage!
Zora Gallente Concealed Intentions	Posted - 2008.11.13 04:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Jim Hazard and as i said in a different thread about it already..... give us armor tankers damage mods which do not use our tank slots so we do not need to sacrifice tank slots for moar damage... also give us guns which allways hit at least for some damage! True, we can't put damage mods into med slots. Could be kind of overpowered though... meds full with dmg mods, low slots filled with hardeners plus repairer.. would make me feel like a caldari I guess from a balancing point of view this nerf was justified.
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2008.11.13 04:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Kravick Drasari I used target painters before the nerf without any problems. Pro tip: You don't need to tank the entire damn room in a mission to beat it. You can spare that one mid slot on a Raven and still be able to complete every mission solo. sorry wrong thread this is not about mission running a noob can do that lvl 4 with ease this is about pvp that cald was nerfed enough now nerfed out of the game ok we still have our jammers that jam sometimes and sometimes they don't even that is laughable :) 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
Wang LeeMei	Posted - 2008.11.13 04:32:00 - [17] actually this thread was about stop whining and / or using target painters (refering to topic title )
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2008.11.13 04:33:00 - [18] Edited by: Jim Hazard on 13/11/2008 04:34:04 Originally by: Bohoba Originally by: Kravick Drasari I used target painters before the nerf without any problems. Pro tip: You don't need to tank the entire damn room in a mission to beat it. You can spare that one mid slot on a Raven and still be able to complete every mission solo. sorry wrong thread this is not about mission running a noob can do that lvl 4 with ease this is about pvp that cald was nerfed enough now nerfed out of the game ok we still have our jammers that jam sometimes and sometimes they don't even that is laughable :) so we do a rollback to pre QR where you deal 0.1 damage with your missiles to all the nano ships buzzing arround and caldari was not better at jamming as they are now? I just do not get how ppl can whine about something that actually got improved for them when you use your brain to use the given tools.
Mathena Moran Caldari Kiith Paktu	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:46:00 - [19] Ignorance seems to reign a lot, especially when it comes to the abilities of what Caldari ships can do, and now, can't do jack with. So as a 2 year Caldari pilot, without throwing around math and stupifying you all, I'll try to clue a few of you in. Let's address shields themselves, vs armor first off. For some reason people here seem to think that armor tankers need more damage mods, or want them in medium slots... WTF?! Do you not notice the bonuses to the ships damage and tracking on most armor ships, especially Gallente, or the higher dps wtfpwnage weapons on Amarr? You don't friggin' need all those damn damage mods in the first place. You compare this with Caldari and generally across the board, they're screwed. They are lucky to get even close to the damage most pvp boats can do and hell, mission boats for that matter based on the type of shields you fit. Every other race is already above and beyond dps amounts, which is why I'm a bit boggled that missiles were nerf'd so badly. They definitely went over the top, but I digress. Next let's look at armor tankers vs shield tankers. Armor reppers always do less than shields. Armor tends to be more of a timer that ticks down til you have to gtfo and shields try to just put as much as they can on their so they don't get busted. Armor tanks don't require as many modules as shield tanks do on a whole and are simpler in fitting, not to mention skills being a bit simplified comaparatively to shield tanks. I'd say its due mostly to shields being either passive or active and armor not really being clearly divided as much. With shields, you have various modules to play around with for just the shields themselves, then you have various modules to play around with for the cap on active setups. Shields are by far much more complex to fit. They also require mid slots, which is where all the fun modules are for pvp. Most ships that shield tank can't even think about fitting anything beyond a disruptor/scrambler because of the sacrafice to their tanking dps abilities. Armor doesn't have this worry at all, and are already doing more damage... If a shield tank'd ship user actually fits more than a point, he's completely daft, because his shields are basically non existent in comparison to any other ship, usually you are talking about lowering your shields by more than a third if you are lucky, and sometimes to half. So there goes the painter idea, especially on pvp ships, not so much on mission boats, but still pretty lame. Now let's look at the 'nano nerf' ?? What nano nerf? Where did ships that were nano'd get nerf'd? I'm at a loss to people thinking that speed tanking got dumped. In fact, it got increased. So much so, especially for missile users, that its laughable to even think about attacking a ship smaller than you or going over 300m/s with heavies. There isn't a nano nerf people. Speed got even'd out across all ships in a general slope upwards so that it wasn't all over the place for ship classes, and then things were set in place so that you can get beyond a certain speed. So the nano issue is completely STILL there and a moot point when it comes to missiles, especially now. So now that I've at least touched on all the stupid arguements thrown out there that have little to do with the missiles being nerf'd themselves, let's look at what's happened to missiles. Missiles hit for less damage across the board, period. They've also been reduced one level down in ship size for what they can be shot at. Missiles already did less damage than all other weapons on a general across the board level, so I'm lost as to why missiles even got messed with in the first place. But that's not all. All the t2 missiles got reduced in range as well and all missiles got their explosion velocity reduced by over 300% meaning anything that goes faster than a damn tricycle will escape the damage from a missiles explosion because now its sloooow. You can run, but you'll just die tired...
Oftherocks Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Celeritas 5k Seriously, target painters are actually useful now. Thank you, that is all. You do realize target painters effect signature radius, not exposion velocity? And you do realize it is the nerfed explosion velocity that is making it so missiles don't hit the same class ship as the missile (i.e. cruise vs. BS, heavy vs. cruiser, light vs. frigs) for full damage. Also, I assume you have noticed there has been like 8 billion threads either whining about whiners or whining about missiles, so why did you make a new one? Originally by: Sheriff Jones No, i play hello kitty online and just paid for 5 years to come here and make comments about stuff i know nothing about and Wranglers pants.
Mallikan Gallente Plundering Penguins Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:56:00 - [21] Though I agree with the OP, I must say STOP USING CAPS LOCK. That is all. --- lol.. I messed up.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.11.13 05:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Oftherocks Originally by: Celeritas 5k Seriously, target painters are actually useful now. Thank you, that is all. You do realize target painters effect signature radius, not exposion velocity? And you do realize it is the nerfed explosion velocity that is making it so missiles don't hit the same class ship as the missile (i.e. cruise vs. BS, heavy vs. cruiser, light vs. frigs) for full damage. Also, I assume you have noticed there has been like 8 billion threads either whining about whiners or whining about missiles, so why did you make a new one? someone hasn't seen the new stat added to missiles. Damage reduction is based on the ratio of sig radius To explosion velocity now. This ratio either inceases base damage or reduces it based on this new stat.
Colonel Bloodtide	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:12:00 - [23] No no you clearly dont understand the logic and methods of the serial whiners. They will whine and whine until CCP cave in and boost missiles, then the whiners will complain that now NPC missile ships are doing to much damage and the circle of poo will continue :)
Mathena Moran Caldari Kiith Paktu	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:14:00 - [24] So to continue, now all torps that shoot for way shorter now, couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And shoot cruise missiles at a Battleship moving at normal speed, not even speed tanked, good luck killing it? Just to give you all a basic example of how badly Caldari are fareing right now, let's take a Drake into account. Drakes are your basic all around Caldari ship, they tank well, they shoot generally ok enough to get by. If you are passive tanked, you have to use up every slot in your highs and lows to at least get it to around 450dps at its lowest resistance if you have a disruptor fitted and put on an invul field, which doesn't make it completely passive, but the cap holds. Your damage is usually around 200 - 250dps. For a BC this is complete crap, but its what the Caldari have to work with. If you active tank it, your tank goes to half, which is asenine on a ship that's always over 100mil after ship cost, fitting, and ammo. You could achieve over 400dps damage though, its just now a paperweight, a very expensive one. A Drake can't take on any ship its size or bigger because it can't push the dps required to kill them, and it can't tank most of them either. Most any other ship in its size and bigger can kill it. A Drake USED to be useful at killing cruisers and below effectively, or being used to hold a ship its size or bigger in place while your friends came to kill it. So now that we know the options are very limited on a Drake and she can't do much, let's look at what she does now after the patch with her missiles. Basically, nothing. You can't hit anything smaller than a Drake for any dps worth a hill of beans now. I used t2 Heavies, which btw, good luck using this ship for anything but missions now unless you can use t2 launchers to utilize t2 ammo which is now required to even hit smaller ships... So now it can't even take on ships smaller than its class, and it can't kill anything at its class or above. So now its just a pile of useless crap for pvp and barely bearable for any meaningful level 4 action. Those cruisers will now be completely frustrating to kill and frigates impossible unless you have drones. So there you go, one ship that's just been taken out of the pvp realm. The Raven is worse, omg worse like wow... and good luck with those Caracals guys... All I really want is to be able to pilot a ship that's useful with missiles, but now its gone from already being only somewhat flexible and limited, to just plain stupid to use them. I hope they reduce the nerf bat applied to missiles at least by enough of a margin for us unfortunate Caldari pilots to at least enjoy the game again. I'm almost sad for all the carebears that just mission all day. I bet they can't even do half the missions they used to. Nah strike that, they should all just DIAF anyway. :P What I really want to know though, after writing a book for you all practically, is why? Why'd they even mess with missiles in the first place? They sucked at hitting anything going over 3 - 4k that was small anyway even with precision missiles, and you have to have t2 launchers for that. Now you're lucky to hit something if its going 300m/s with heavy precisions if its a cruiser or below. So why did they do this? The only reason I can throw out there that's blatantly obvious is that now Afterburners are the way to go and will make it so you can speed tank any missile boat you want. And since webs are nerf'd so badly, gunboats don't hit you as hard as they used to either, but definitely still able to kill you... The only solution that can remotely help with this problem right now is making your shields completely crap and using a target painter, if you even have skills for one, and there's 4 different skills to even make them work worth a hill of beans btw, and not being able to fit a point, or to tank level 4's in a safe manner. Now I'm just waiting for the brilliant replies to this... You can run, but you'll just die tired...
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:21:00 - [25] This post is a fascinating, and I for one will be heartily recommending it to my friends. __________________________________________________ I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it! I'm also training Minmatar Capitals! And I eat Lions!
Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Mathena Moran Now I'm just waiting for the brilliant replies to this... you won't get any, that's a freaking wall of text and nobody will bother to read it. I'm a year and a half caldary pilot, they're not so bad. Yeah, the cerb needs some love, yeah shield tanking eating up all your mid slots sucks hard for pvp, but every race has its problems and every race has its advantages. Perhaps you didn't read the OP? At least you could have the decency to ***** somewhere else... - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Celeritas 5k on 13/11/2008 06:26:32 Edited by: Celeritas 5k on 13/11/2008 06:26:04 Originally by: Oftherocks You do realize target painters effect signature radius, not exposion velocity? And you do realize it is the nerfed explosion velocity that is making it so missiles don't hit the same class ship as the missile (i.e. cruise vs. BS, heavy vs. cruiser, light vs. frigs) for full damage. Also, I assume you have noticed there has been like 8 billion threads either whining about whiners or whining about missiles, so why did you make a new one? yeah, check out the new formula. Once you're going faster than the explosion velocity, it's all about the ratio of your sig radius to your velocity. I made a new one because it makes me feel better about myself, and I can forget about all the ways my daddy touched me when I was little. edits: I suck at forums. - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
OrDeR	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Mathena Moran So to continue, now all torps that shoot for way shorter now, couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And shoot cruise missiles at a Battleship moving at normal speed, not even speed tanked, good luck killing it? Just to give you all a basic example of how badly Caldari are fareing right now, let's take a Drake into account. Drakes are your basic all around Caldari ship, they tank well, they shoot generally ok enough to get by. If you are passive tanked, you have to use up every slot in your highs and lows to at least get it to around 450dps at its lowest resistance if you have a disruptor fitted and put on an invul field, which doesn't make it completely passive, but the cap holds. Your damage is usually around 200 - 250dps. For a BC this is complete crap, but its what the Caldari have to work with. If you active tank it, your tank goes to half, which is asenine on a ship that's always over 100mil after ship cost, fitting, and ammo. You could achieve over 400dps damage though, its just now a paperweight, a very expensive one. A Drake can't take on any ship its size or bigger because it can't push the dps required to kill them, and it can't tank most of them either. Most any other ship in its size and bigger can kill it. A Drake USED to be useful at killing cruisers and below effectively, or being used to hold a ship its size or bigger in place while your friends came to kill it. So now that we know the options are very limited on a Drake and she can't do much, let's look at what she does now after the patch with her missiles. Basically, nothing. You can't hit anything smaller than a Drake for any dps worth a hill of beans now. I used t2 Heavies, which btw, good luck using this ship for anything but missions now unless you can use t2 launchers to utilize t2 ammo which is now required to even hit smaller ships... So now it can't even take on ships smaller than its class, and it can't kill anything at its class or above. So now its just a pile of useless crap for pvp and barely bearable for any meaningful level 4 action. Those cruisers will now be completely frustrating to kill and frigates impossible unless you have drones. So there you go, one ship that's just been taken out of the pvp realm. The Raven is worse, omg worse like wow... and good luck with those Caracals guys... All I really want is to be able to pilot a ship that's useful with missiles, but now its gone from already being only somewhat flexible and limited, to just plain stupid to use them. I hope they reduce the nerf bat applied to missiles at least by enough of a margin for us unfortunate Caldari pilots to at least enjoy the game again. I'm almost sad for all the carebears that just mission all day. I bet they can't even do half the missions they used to. Nah strike that, they should all just DIAF anyway. :P What I really want to know though, after writing a book for you all practically, is why? Why'd they even mess with missiles in the first place? They sucked at hitting anything going over 3 - 4k that was small anyway even with precision missiles, and you have to have t2 launchers for that. Now you're lucky to hit something if its going 300m/s with heavy precisions if its a cruiser or below. So why did they do this? The only reason I can throw out there that's blatantly obvious is that now Afterburners are the way to go and will make it so you can speed tank any missile boat you want. And since webs are nerf'd so badly, gunboats don't hit you as hard as they used to either, but definitely still able to kill you... The only solution that can remotely help with this problem right now is making your shields completely crap and using a target painter, if you even have skills for one, and there's 4 different skills to even make them work worth a hill of beans btw, and not being able to fit a point, or to tank level 4's in a safe manner. is anyone reading these essay posts?
Colonel Bloodtide	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Mathena Moran Wall 'O' Text The issue was quite simple. They had to nerf speed in some way, nano had become the FOTM nay the FOTY and as such was making PVP totally without any other tactic other than fitting for total speed. Also as a dev pointed out the physics engine was not designed to handle such speeds and it was tantermount to an out and out exploit. So when they nerfed the speed of various ships/modules etc they found that missiles were doing INSANE damage, so they changed the formula for how they did their damage E VOILA and here we are. Maybe they over egged the pudding but really as i pointed out elsewhere it was well documented from peoples experiences on the test server so why everyone is so surprised is beyond me, also its hardly like CCP have never over egged a nerf before isnt it, difference is the hordes of caldari IWIN players who picked them cause they get obscene attribute spreads and are awesome mission runners are now whining louder than anyone else ever in history... Peace out!
Celeritas 5k Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 06:28:00 - [30] Originally by: OrDeR is anyone reading these essay posts? nope! - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.

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