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Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:03:00 - [61] Bring more dps, adapt. Personally I think QR is the best thing that has happened to EVE in a long time.
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:07:00 - [62] Originally by: DHB WildCat okay this post is for those that know nothing about me. For those that think this is an omg, Burn Eden was nerfed thread. Im here to tell you that, this is not what that is about, and I cant remember the last time I gate camped in a Raven. You people asSume far too much, especially the HUZZAH ***gots. Watch this ..... Burning Eve 4 This is what Im talking about. No longer can you do this and its wrong. Targets should not be able to attack, then say "you know what I cant win, lets deagress and slowboat to the gate and jump out". If you think there is still no problem after that, then fine. But pvp, like the one in the vid is no longer feasable. WildCat you didnt post yellow would have been so much more fun to search for the link
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:07:00 - [63] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Bring more dps, adapt. Personally I think QR is the best thing that has happened to EVE in a long time. You mean blob right? I think you should be completely honest with yourself and say what you really mean: you like blobs, you want everyone to bring more people to a fight, and you hate solo PVP. All kidding aside, IMO the web nerf is a little over the top. I think two webs should reduce a target's speed by 90%, juggle the math to make it work accordingly. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Originally by: Horza Otho [06:36:47] Horza Otho > its all good, everytime i fit a mega i play some mariah carey in the backround
Iva Soreass Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:07:00 - [64] Edited by: Iva Soreass on 13/11/2008 16:09:02 Originally by: Ocih Battleships have no scan resolution, poor tracking speed, move slow. With a 90% web an Abby would be moving at 8 m/s be getting hit for premium damage and would die on a gate 100% of the time. I can't say if you are classical Burn Eden or new school but get out of your cloaked, Torp Raven and try a new ship. No? Quoteing dis for comedy value (bolded to!) **Edit : if you know what your talking about then you would know that there aint no 90% webs anymore you ejit.
Dez Affinity Evocati.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:14:00 - [65] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Bring more dps, adapt. Personally I think QR is the best thing that has happened to EVE in a long time. Tob you hurt me _______________
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:19:00 - [66] Originally by: Bellum Eternus You mean blob right? I think you should be completely honest with yourself and say what you really mean: you like blobs, you want everyone to bring more people to a fight, and you hate solo PVP. Since you are completely clueless to what I am, and my corp/alliance is about. I suggest you stick some duct tape to that piehole until you've done proper research. A passive caldari tank can take about 800dps. If you can't dish more than that, then that's the problem. And if the only solution you, Bellum can think of to break such a tank is "the blob", then you simply aren't creative enough. Quote: All kidding aside, IMO the web nerf is a little over the top. I think two webs should reduce a target's speed by 90%, juggle the math to make it work accordingly. Webs are fine. Especially in combination with scramblers.
Jantix	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:21:00 - [67] Buffer tanks should be nerfed imo. Active tanks are more fun and better for EVE gameplay. But then Neut's kinda spoil that fun as well.
geomatica Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:24:00 - [68] Wildcat, I totally agree... the nerf has landed a wrecking shot on webs. And it's sad that an ALWAYS essential piece of gear since I started playing EVE back in the day (This is not my first char) has come to this. Raises the question of why they even modded it? It's a Webbifier. It's meant to make you a slow easy target. Maybe if they dropped the 90% ones to 70% or so... but seriously. Sig Coming Soon(TM)
Ghost Goat	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:25:00 - [69] Originally by: Dez Affinity I know you are a nameless alt because you are an alt. You even admit to it. I know you are nameless because no one here knows your name. See how that works? You post with an alt because you know your main will get flamed equally as much if not more for being a terrible PvPer. He is of high standing compared to you, he has played this game for a long time and actually done a lot of PvP and seemingly rather successfully. you are full of assumptions and if i may add full of Sh*t as well ...
Dez Affinity Evocati.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:26:00 - [70] Edited by: Dez Affinity on 13/11/2008 16:26:28 Originally by: Ghost Goat Originally by: Dez Affinity I know you are a nameless alt because you are an alt. You even admit to it. I know you are nameless because no one here knows your name. See how that works? You post with an alt because you know your main will get flamed equally as much if not more for being a terrible PvPer. He is of high standing compared to you, he has played this game for a long time and actually done a lot of PvP and seemingly rather successfully. you are full of assumptions and if i may add full of Sh*t as well ... Come back when you are prepared to prove me wrong, until then you can sit in your little corner. _______________

Ghost Goat	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:31:00 - [71] wouldnt you like that ...
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:37:00 - [72] I've not had a great deal of time for Eve this week, and not had a chance to test things out. What is the current stacking penalty on T2 webs? If two are applied, what is the final percentage of the drop in velocity? If no one knows I could test later on tonight... but figure someone's already done the math.
Jalif Scorpion's Sting	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:38:00 - [73] Edited by: Jalif on 13/11/2008 16:40:06 Well.. I started a war yesterday. Before I was always pvping alone. Sometimes with a friend & we had fun. Now our only targets that we can find are in belts & safespots. If they are at stations or gates they just get back and dock/jump. With this patch small gang pvp is almost next to impossible. It seems the reall pvp is going blobbing or harasing the enemy with sniper setups. I am realizing time by time that if I have to be succesfull in pvp I need to bring friends & a lot. So my dream to make solo-pvp videos is ruined & the only pvp where you can be succesfull at is having atleast 5 interceptors, 5 falcons & 15 DPS dealers. I am going to laugh at the next PVP-Tournament where everybody is jamming eachoter but doesn't have enough DPS/tracking to take eachother down. So basicly all the small pvp corporations are going to die because they can't take on a medium sized corporation. Its now all about blob warfare. Bring enough people down, just a few scrams... no need for webs... with all this DPS... something has to hit... & targets will melt down. /me is thinking of joining the goons.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:40:00 - [74] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 13/11/2008 16:42:49 Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 13/11/2008 16:40:36 Originally by: geomatica Raises the question of why they even modded it? They modified it as a means to not completely kill speed. But at the same time they added warp scramblers that cancel out MWD:s. People will adapt to these changes, they always have. Maybe they need to change some fundamental thinking in regard to what they used to be comfortable with doing, but that goes in line with what adaptation is all about. Passive drakes disengaging and making it back to the gate sounds intriguing. As I recall, no passive drake has either a MWD or AB fitted (at least not if it wants to tank 800dps), so it's going base speed - with some gates now landing targets 30+ kilometers away from the gate, a drake with one web then goes what? 50m/s? And you cannot kill that in time before it reaches the gate? Is the problem expressed here, really that solo ships no longer can kill 5-6 hostiles alone? edit: And if the pirates are sitting smack-dab on the gate. And you see them de-aggress, then perhaps you could de-aggro yourself and jump after them when they do?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:47:00 - [75] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Bellum Eternus You mean blob right? I think you should be completely honest with yourself and say what you really mean: you like blobs, you want everyone to bring more people to a fight, and you hate solo PVP. Since you are completely clueless to what I am, and my corp/alliance is about. I suggest you stick some duct tape to that piehole until you've done proper research. A passive caldari tank can take about 800dps. If you can't dish more than that, then that's the problem. And if the only solution you, Bellum can think of to break such a tank is "the blob", then you simply aren't creative enough. Quote: All kidding aside, IMO the web nerf is a little over the top. I think two webs should reduce a target's speed by 90%, juggle the math to make it work accordingly. Webs are fine. Especially in combination with scramblers. I know what you're about and what your corp does. Note the 'all kidding aside' part that you completely skipped reading. And the issue isn't building 800+ dps into a single ship. The issue is putting enough DPS into a single ship to the point that it can KILL said passive Drake before it slowboats back to the gate, WHILE DOUBLE WEBBED. Good luck with that. My Kronos spits out 1400+ DPS with guns only, but the problems with the Kronos for a solo ship are obvious. Webs are not fine, even in combination with scramblers, when ships can make it back into jump range while double webbed, without using a propulsion module of any sort. So yeah, get a dirty sock, stick it in your piehole, and stfu until you've done proper research. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.* Originally by: Horza Otho [06:36:47] Horza Otho > its all good, everytime i fit a mega i play some mariah carey in the backround
Jalif Scorpion's Sting	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:47:00 - [76] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin edit: And if the pirates are sitting smack-dab on the gate. And you see them de-aggress, then perhaps you could de-aggro yourself and jump after them when they do? Then they can warp away? If you already shot its already to late? & no... I am not bringing more friends....
Dez Affinity Evocati.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin edit: And if the pirates are sitting smack-dab on the gate. And you see them de-aggress, then perhaps you could de-aggro yourself and jump after them when they do? Then they warp away instead. _______________
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 13/11/2008 14:58:09 So gatecamps are no longer like shooting fish in a barrel? You have to use tactics? and think? Man the end times are here! Yea bringing a bigger blob will surely require much thought and long nights of tactics discussions...
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I know what you're about and what your corp does. Note the 'all kidding aside' part that you completely skipped reading. And the issue isn't building 800+ dps into a single ship. The issue is putting enough DPS into a single ship to the point that it can KILL said passive Drake before it slowboats back to the gate, WHILE DOUBLE WEBBED. Good luck with that. Like I explained, a webbed drake goes tops 50m/s. That is 5km every 100 seconds. If you have, say a standard gank-geddon, you will have torn through those shields in what? 40? 50? Especially since said drake (in your scenario) is tanking sentries as well. Quote: My Kronos spits out 1400+ DPS with guns only, but the problems with the Kronos for a solo ship are obvious. Webs are not fine, even in combination with scramblers, when ships can make it back into jump range while double webbed, *without using a propulsion module of any sort. I just don't see how they can, unless they're very close to the gate already. --- As for what happens if they're sitting at zero, the same thing goes for any passive tank (eg. a trimarked BS). You can deaggro and jump if odds get too sketchy. A fully passive drake has crap dps, and is basically good enough for popping haulers and cruisers. A swarm of passive drakes are more effective of course. But if you choose to fight six fully passive drakes, and think you should be able to kill them all solo, then maybe those expectations should be changed.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:58:00 - [80] Originally by: Dez Affinity Originally by: Tobias Sjodin edit: And if the pirates are sitting smack-dab on the gate. And you see them de-aggress, then perhaps you could de-aggro yourself and jump after them when they do? Then they warp away instead. And that couldn't happen pre-QR?

Varrakk Phantom Squad	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:00:00 - [81] The range nerf on Officer webs was not valid. 1/2 range and -300pg, awesome tradeoff! When I goto bed, I can hear my Gotan web sob.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:01:00 - [82] I actully for one liek the cahnges, because GATE CAMPING SUCKS. Let the carebears in. Then **** em in the belts And i can't wait for the "local" changes
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:05:00 - [83] Erm, pirates normally sit on the gate at 0km anyway. So why would they be burning back? Catch them on a high sec gate so they cant jmp, or have a couple of tacklers deggress and follow them through when you notice none of them have agro. You would have had to have done it like that on empire contracts in high sec, so why can't you do it low sec?
Jalif Scorpion's Sting	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:05:00 - [84] Originally by: Kaeten I actully for one liek the cahnges, because GATE CAMPING SUCKS. Let the carebears in. Then ** em in the belts And i can't wait for the "local" changes Unless every single carebare stays at gates or stations & does not enter belts. Or they just blob the ** out of you... Ah local changes... yeah... as far as I know there is not going to change much to lowsec atleast... 0.0 will be blob warfare anyway.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:07:00 - [85] Tobias- What I'm seeing the most of so far is this: Drake/Raven/whatever uncloaks, starts running back to the gate as soon as possible. It's already inside 10km from jump range by the time you can MWD over to the target and get a web on it. Then it slows down to 60-75% of it's speed (depending on single or dual webs) and then continues on until it's back inside jump range, and gets out. This is assuming the target doesn't have an MWD or AB, in which case it is much easier for the target to escape, even if you put a 9km scram on it and shut it's MWD down, it's already going fast enough by the time you kill the MWD for it to limp back to the gate. How I'm dealing with these problems: 8+ people on the gate, heavy neuts for everyone, triple webbing the target and putting at least 1 9km scram on it. Does it work? Of course. Did I adapt? Yes. Does this make me happy about what has happened to solo PVP? No. For me there is zero sense of accomplishment or enjoyment of flying around in an 8-12 man gang killing people. It's just not that special. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Originally by: Horza Otho [06:36:47] Horza Otho > its all good, everytime i fit a mega i play some mariah carey in the backround
Jalif Scorpion's Sting	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:08:00 - [86] Edited by: Jalif on 13/11/2008 17:10:26 Edited by: Jalif on 13/11/2008 17:09:22 Edited by: Jalif on 13/11/2008 17:08:17 Originally by: Lady Karma Erm, pirates normally sit on the gate at 0km anyway. So why would they be burning back? Catch them on a high sec gate so they cant jmp, or have a couple of tacklers deggress and follow them through when you notice none of them have agro. You would have had to have done it like that on empire contracts in high sec, so why can't you do it low sec? Well, I am a pirate. Shall I explain why I am not on a gate? I need to be in a BC atleast to tank sentries so I will be spanked by AS's or normal frigates for that matter. I can't fly a frigate because I get popped pretty fast by the sentries. You won't find any pirates next to an entrence of lowsec/highsec. Unless they are with 10/20 people. <--- see, blobbing comes back. EDIT: and then those carebares are complaining about pirate camps.
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:15:00 - [87] Originally by: Jalif Well, I am a pirate. Shall I explain why I am not on a gate? You didn't explain. We are talking about gate camping here, and in order to stop someone from warping off, something called a disruptor is used. In order to get the best chance of being in range of the jump in, you need to be 0km on the gate in the middle. Now, why would a pirate be burning back to the gate in that scenario. And I still can't understand why DHB doesn't simply have someone deagro at the same time the hostile does, so he can like....jump through as well. The fact the guy gets away has nothing to do with webs, jut a bad decision.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:20:00 - [88] BURN EDEN is the backbone of TRI, c/d? -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Vohsa Kimara Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Dez Affinity Edited by: Dez Affinity on 13/11/2008 15:53:48 Originally by: Jas Dor Well pardon me for pointing out that melting a well tanked player battleship within a time limit might require more then one person. Somehow I don't see this as a design defect. There's a difference between using more than one person and bringing more and more people until you can achieve what you used to be able to achieve with a couple. Originally by: Ghost Goat and how would you know im a nameless alt ? people like you are exactly the reason i post with alt ... player of high standing ? he must be important if he post in orange I know you are a nameless alt because you are an alt. You even admit to it. I know you are nameless because no one here knows your name. See how that works? You post with an alt because you know your main will get flamed equally as much if not more for being a terrible PvPer. He is of high standing compared to you, he has played this game for a long time and actually done a lot of PvP and seemingly rather successfully. Sorry, who the hell are you? Oh right...nobody.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:33:00 - [90] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Tobias- What I'm seeing the most of so far is this: Drake/Raven/whatever uncloaks, starts running back to the gate as soon as possible. It's already inside 10km from jump range by the time you can MWD over to the target and get a web on it. Alright, previously you said that said target had aggressed, and your complaint was addressed at targets that were able to deaggress and get away, now they are not aggressing. So, you are really saying that; the fact when they are jumping in (and you are there) condemns them to death. Because they should not be able to reach the gate, at all? Quote: Then it slows down to 60-75% of it's speed (depending on single or dual webs) and then continues on until it's back inside jump range, and gets out. If it is a ship that does not aggress you, and MWD:s back toward the gate, you do not have a warp scrambler, and it progresses at, say 400m/s toward the gate because said BS has an MWD. Yes, obviously that is frustrating and a consequence of the patch changes. This specific scenario does leave you at a disadvantage as an attacker. Agreed. But as I see it the web changes had a series of implications which affected gameplay in many positive aspects as well. And your scenario is one. Very specific. I am not convinced that this singular event where the web changes have a negative side-effect is enough to motivate the scenarios where the web changes have a positive side-effect. What I'd like to ask though is what happened to the 60 second session-timer that was spoken of? Quote: Does it work? Of course. Did I adapt? Yes. Does this make me happy about what has happened to solo PVP? No. Certainly, gate-camping is not the only way of solo-PvP:ing. Quote: For me there is zero sense of accomplishment or enjoyment of flying around in an 8-12 man gang killing people. It's just not that special. Hehe, well. It is an MMO, the single player aspect is not the focus of EVE. My favourite aspect of EVE is small-gang warfare. And since I live in 0.0 these days, I admit I am not as affected by the changes you mention. I still do not think that changing webs once more is the solution. I think the solution lies in something else. Because I do agree with the fact that it should be essential to scout prior to jumping into a potential hostile environment. But at the same time, I think there should be ways of getting out of said situation (eg. not die 100% of the time when jumping into said scenario). It's a matter of game-balance, and again; I believe the web changes are fine.



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