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Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.13 19:23:00 - [1] I just went out and tested my new AB vaga. [Vagabond, New Setup 1] Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 10MN Afterburner II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] No rigs. Top speed: 1147m/s. It can maintain an orbit speed of 1100m/s at 15km from any other ship. I will let the numbers speak for themselves. 19:00:41 Combat Thunderbolt Precision Heavy Missile belonging to EvilFree hits you, doing 18.4 damage. (falcon) 19:17:14 Combat Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile belonging to MementoMortis hits you, doing 36.7 damage. (cerberus) 19:13:54 Combat Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile belonging to Smantha Dering hits you, doing 70.5 damage. (nighthawk) 18:54:21 Combat Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Twelve Jackals hits you, doing 12.0 damage. (typhoon) 19:05:16 Combat Cataclysm Precision Cruise Missile belonging to Twelve Jackals hits you, doing 12.0 damage. (typhoon) 19:13:52 Combat Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile belonging to Wussie hits you, doing 58.4 damage. (crow) This fit can reliably re-approach a gate after jumping through. Rapier cannot catch it. it can burn to a gate from 20km+ and make it without a rapier catching it. Dual-webbed velocity is 204m/s. (this all assuming you don't get bumped) The numbers also show that explosion velocity and sig radius now matter a lot more than before. Nighthawk with similar skills to a cerb does almost twice as much damage because of the explosion velocity bonus it gets. In short: Afterburner on vaga is very, very viable. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.11.13 19:35:00 - [2] I wonder what difference a second LSE would make to those hits
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.13 19:38:00 - [3] Quick estimate says second LSE adds (165/140) 18% sig, so, 18% to the hits, too. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
EFT Warrior	Posted - 2008.11.13 19:40:00 - [4] Don't forget you'd have to remove the invuln field and then account for the damage lost from that. Still for short term damage it would be viable for lasting longer in a fight (although I'd slap on a TP for a bit more damage at optimal+ falloff).
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.11.13 19:57:00 - [5] Does the new sig tanking mechanics apply to turrets too? ...Because maybe my curse isn't as fail as I thought it was going to be
Captain Falcord Gallente Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.11.13 20:06:00 - [6] Sets up Halo buy orders ---<---@ JackFalcord
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.13 20:07:00 - [7] hey look, the vaga wasn't that nerfed at all I say people will be calling "nerf vagas!!1oneone" yet again. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.11.13 20:10:00 - [8] Also don't forget that for stuff like reapproach you can overheat your AB easy since it doesn't damage nearly as much as an overheated mwd, which is always good :) All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2008.11.13 20:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Sokratesz No rigs. Top speed: 1147m/s. Rapier cannot catch it. Dual-webbed velocity is 204m/s. My rapier would like to meet your AB fit Vaga.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.13 20:26:00 - [10] A Vaga of sig 140 (single LSE) orbiting a well-skilled dual-BCS HM Drake of 370 kinetic CN DPS at 1100 m/s will take, according to Stafen's formula, 29% HM damage (39% Precision), or 107 DPS (113 DPS Precision). Call it 100 and ignore drones. Extra LSE would take those to 33% and 43%. Nighthawk with CS V would take the single-LSE numbers to 34% and 44%. Given such a Vaga with overheated Inv of ~17k kinetic EHP, it will take approximately three minutes for the Drake to burn through your EHP, adding a bit to account for passive shield regen. No drones involved. Assuming those numbers are correct (ha!), then that's an interesting balance...
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.13 20:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo Originally by: Sokratesz No rigs. Top speed: 1147m/s. Rapier cannot catch it. Dual-webbed velocity is 204m/s. My rapier would like to meet your AB fit Vaga. Tried and tested. You cannot catch an AB vaga that comes through a gate and re-approaches. Don't forget that I don't get the sig penalty thus you lock fairly slow. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
P'uck	Posted - 2008.11.13 21:11:00 - [12] I wonder how rapiers are, now, anyway. I bet people love the bonused tp, but other than that... isn't it very very fragile now?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.13 21:30:00 - [13] Well tbh AB is only actualy viable in very very small engagements. Nothing exciting there, move along (By very very small I'd say 2vs2 max hehe) Boink!
Helsir Qyrdun Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.13 21:53:00 - [14] Originally by: ElCoCo Well tbh AB is only actualy viable in very very small engagements. Nothing exciting there, move along (By very very small I'd say 2vs2 max hehe) ^This. Keep your uber orbiting. You'll just be hit by his mates from 70km out for full damage.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.13 21:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Helsir Qyrdun Originally by: ElCoCo Well tbh AB is only actualy viable in very very small engagements. Nothing exciting there, move along (By very very small I'd say 2vs2 max hehe) ^This. Keep your uber orbiting. You'll just be hit by his mates from 70km out for full damage. I'm not claiming they are always useful. It's situational, like everything. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Helsir Qyrdun Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Helsir Qyrdun Originally by: ElCoCo Well tbh AB is only actualy viable in very very small engagements. Nothing exciting there, move along (By very very small I'd say 2vs2 max hehe) ^This. Keep your uber orbiting. You'll just be hit by his mates from 70km out for full damage. I'm not claiming they are always useful. It's situational, like everything. Well how do you expect me to respond with overly simple blanket staements!?
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:11:00 - [17] I found a large shield booster with a cap booster makes it even harder to hit. So, AB, Disrupter, Large shield booster, med cap booster. Fit Nano fibers and gyros. Maybe slap a shield rig on there to fill the kinetic hole.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Megan Maynard I found a large shield booster with a cap booster makes it even harder to hit. So, AB, Disrupter, Large shield booster, med cap booster. Fit Nano fibers and gyros. Maybe slap a shield rig on there to fill the kinetic hole. Looky active tanking Minmatar.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:21:00 - [19] Originally by: Sokratesz I will let the numbers speak for themselves. Where are the numbers from a 220mm AC II Hurricane? Valk IIs? Seriously, are you guys for real? Like, missiles only existing weapon system in game? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim Does the new sig tanking mechanics apply to turrets too? ...Because maybe my curse isn't as fail as I thought it was going to be It's a missile change. Duh. And Curse is not 'fail' - ability to completely remove any short range gun's ability to hit at 20-24km at all with a single TD is quite 'epic win' in itself. Ofc, you need a MWD. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Sokratesz I will let the numbers speak for themselves. Where are the numbers from a 220mm AC II Hurricane? Valk IIs? Seriously, are you guys for real? Like, missiles only existing weapon system in game? The point was just to prove how it fares against missiles. I did some brief testing versus drones and turrets as well. Neutron blasters with null do not hit you if you're moving at 570m/s (1xweb) at 10km. Ogre's fail to catch up if you're going 1km/s, thus zero damage. Will have to do some more testing in that area. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:54:00 - [22] Thanks for the info Sokratesz. We have been doing some testing with AB's and I think the "it will only work 2v2 crowd" are exaggerating significantly.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:28:00 - [23] It seems the Vagabond is pretty much back to where it used to be some 18months r so ago before every **er started nano-ing. I.E. the ship you really REALLY dont want to see warp into the same belt as you when you're ratting. If the numbers hold up it should be able to effectively speed/sig tank anything bigger than itself and basically pummel anything smaller before it becomes a threat. Throw a couple of falloff rigs on it and anything it can't speed tank it can simply outrange. Who would have thought that nerfing the ** out of speed would make the original speed fiend good again?
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:46:00 - [24] Originally by: bldyannoyed It seems the Vagabond is pretty much back to where it used to be some 18months r so ago before every **er started nano-ing. I.E. the ship you really REALLY dont want to see warp into the same belt as you when you're ratting. If the numbers hold up it should be able to effectively speed/sig tank anything bigger than itself and basically pummel anything smaller before it becomes a threat. Throw a couple of falloff rigs on it and anything it can't speed tank it can simply outrange. Who would have thought that nerfing the out of speed would make the original speed fiend good again? that's why I expect people to scream "NERF VAGAS!!11oneone" soon enough --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Captain Falcord Gallente Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:49:00 - [25] Anyone tried to fit on the same vaga both a MWD and an AB, to add versatility? Or is it plain stupid. Dunno, just asking :) ---<---@ JackFalcord
whisk Gallente Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:03:00 - [26] Edited by: whisk on 14/11/2008 00:03:06 slap small gistii a type instead of inv or LSE ;) and obviusly a set of halo Adapt or Die
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Sokratesz I will let the numbers speak for themselves. Where are the numbers from a 220mm AC II Hurricane? Valk IIs? Seriously, are you guys for real? Like, missiles only existing weapon system in game? The point was just to prove how it fares against missiles. I did some brief testing versus drones and turrets as well. Neutron blasters with null do not hit you if you're moving at 570m/s (1xweb) at 10km. Ogre's fail to catch up if you're going 1km/s, thus zero damage. Will have to do some more testing in that area. The problem is this: solo battleships of the turret (or any except the 'your cap, I haz eaten it' variety) will not be flown in solo PVP by anyone who has actually bothered to log onto SISI or test the patch changes on TQ. That, of course, leaves you with some targets of the clueless variety, but as time goes on anyone serious about PVP will get less clueless and stop flying solo non-Dominix BS, and get in smaller and better ships (for solo). So basing fits around fighting solo BS does not really make sense. As for solo BC/turret HAC killing fits, you want: MWD, range scripted TD, some buffer, speed/damage mods. Outranging is win, and a single unbonused TD will render any short range med gun unable to hit beyond 12-13km. The lack of TD fits is precisely why I've always treated a Vagabond with contempt when piloting a Hurricane - I could always force it to disengage easily. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Gypsio III A Vaga of sig 140 (single LSE) orbiting a well-skilled dual-BCS HM Drake of 370 kinetic CN DPS at 1100 m/s will take, according to Stafen's formula, 29% HM damage (39% Precision), or 107 DPS (113 DPS Precision). Call it 100 and ignore drones. Extra LSE would take those to 33% and 43%. Nighthawk with CS V would take the single-LSE numbers to 34% and 44%. Given such a Vaga with overheated Inv of ~17k kinetic EHP, it will take approximately three minutes for the Drake to burn through your EHP, adding a bit to account for passive shield regen. No drones involved. Assuming those numbers are correct (ha!), then that's an interesting balance... Burn to it and web it. If you look at Stefen's formula, the web is actually the greatest boost to missile damage (x2.5 on the right side rather then the x1.375 the TP provides). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
whisk Gallente Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:11:00 - [29] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Gypsio III A Vaga of sig 140 (single LSE) orbiting a well-skilled dual-BCS HM Drake of 370 kinetic CN DPS at 1100 m/s will take, according to Stafen's formula, 29% HM damage (39% Precision), or 107 DPS (113 DPS Precision). Call it 100 and ignore drones. Extra LSE would take those to 33% and 43%. Nighthawk with CS V would take the single-LSE numbers to 34% and 44%. Given such a Vaga with overheated Inv of ~17k kinetic EHP, it will take approximately three minutes for the Drake to burn through your EHP, adding a bit to account for passive shield regen. No drones involved. Assuming those numbers are correct (ha!), then that's an interesting balance... Burn to it and web it. If you look at Stefen's formula, the web is actually the greatest boost to missile damage (x2.5 on the right side rather then the x1.375 the TP provides). TP, longer range ;) Adapt or Die
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:15:00 - [30] Originally by: whisk TP, longer range ;) Well, ofc, but was just pointing out that people fitting TPs to say HAM drakes - which fight point blank - are silly. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
whisk Gallente Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: whisk TP, longer range ;) Well, ofc, but was just pointing out that people fitting TPs to say HAM drakes - which fight point blank - are silly. true...................... Adapt or Die
xeom Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.11.14 02:37:00 - [32] Still think an AB vaga will dry to any decent gate camp. Small gatecamps with Vaga were easy to escape from.. MWD out and warp. With AB, your only bet EVER is to burn back to gate and jump... Does not take into account webbing frigs, multiple rapiers, and some folks not agressing to jump in after you. Still, for low sec, this might be feasible
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:02:00 - [33] Originally by: xeom Still, for low sec, this might be feasible Seems feasible to be honest. It's a good reason to fly it; with, for instance, the ceptors/etc in FW gangs, MWD out and warpoff is not really a option, and you can't kill em in time really. With the AB, you can make a lot of progress towards the gate before you're tackled - and when you are, you are still having some speed. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Rogerano Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.14 04:21:00 - [34] Originally by: xeom Does not take into account webbing frigs, multiple rapiers, and... Aren't webs stacking penalised now? We caught a moa on a gate post-QR and it burned back at 160m/s despite having 4+ webs on it. --- Not happy with something in EVE? An emo whine will doubtless help your cause.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.14 04:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Rogerano Originally by: xeom Does not take into account webbing frigs, multiple rapiers, and... Aren't webs stacking penalised now? We caught a moa on a gate post-QR and it burned back at 160m/s despite having 4+ webs on it. They were always stacking penalized. The issue was that a 90% web at a 13% penalty still produces a 98.5% reduction in speed.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.11.14 04:51:00 - [36] Originally by: Cpt Branko The problem is this: solo battleships of the turret (or any except the 'your cap, I haz eaten it' variety) will not be flown in solo PVP by anyone who has actually bothered to log onto SISI or test the patch changes on TQ. Earlier today I spotted a Domi heading out to the local mission running system. I got in my dual local rep Tempest and got on a strike on the gate. When my covert alt spotted him about to come back into my system I warped to gate, waited for him to uncloak, and attempted to lock him. I failed to lock him despite having a sensor booster (I dunno - lag has been wierd) and he warped off. Had I locked him in time I would have killed him and looted his wreck - flying solo in my Tempest. I have a neut, web, point, SB, enough rep to de-aggro and jump through a gate vs light opposition - so why should I never fly solo in this ship again? Do you count having a covert alt as not solo? Blanket statements on what is possible in pvp in Eve tend to ignore the extremely varied pvp environments in this game.
Solid Prefekt Minmatar Haven Front	Posted - 2008.11.14 17:57:00 - [37] An AB Vaga is a very interesting idea. My problem with this is that the big benefit of the Vaga was the ability to control range. You needed this as you had the worst tank and DPS. To fly so close wastes your ship bonuses in falloff and the advantage you get with barrage. And the AB Vaga will be great to get ratters, but it will not do well when it gets neuted in battle as you won't have the speed to get away from a ship like the Curse.
The Slagh	Posted - 2008.11.16 16:03:00 - [38] Originally by: bldyannoyed It seems the Vagabond is pretty much back to where it used to be some 18months r so ago before every **er started nano-ing. I.E. the ship you really REALLY dont want to see warp into the same belt as you when you're ratting. If the numbers hold up it should be able to effectively speed/sig tank anything bigger than itself and basically pummel anything smaller before it becomes a threat. Throw a couple of falloff rigs on it and anything it can't speed tank it can simply outrange. Who would have thought that nerfing the ** out of speed would make the original speed fiend good again? I love how CCP does stuff like this. Stealth Buffs, FTW.
Thercon Jair Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.11.16 18:00:00 - [39] Originally by: Solid Prefekt An AB Vaga is a very interesting idea. My problem with this is that the big benefit of the Vaga was the ability to control range. You needed this as you had the worst tank and DPS. To fly so close wastes your ship bonuses in falloff and the advantage you get with barrage. And the AB Vaga will be great to get ratters, but it will not do well when it gets neuted in battle as you won't have the speed to get away from a ship like the Curse. What you don't see is that an AB vaga very much has the ability to control range. What you don't see is that a vagabond doesn't always need to stay out of webrange. Fighting an amarr? Well, those guys have worse tracking and better range than you, so, why should you stay out of webrange where you can be hit and where your guns lose out due to falloff? Sure, it's how you fight blasterboats, but against Amarrs, go in close with faction ammo that does not get a tracking malus and kill them. The falloff even then works to your advantage, as a huge falloff means you're going to lose like no damage at all when you're fighting 1-2km out of your optimal. Minnie ships are not "a certain style of combat", it always depends on what you're up against.

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