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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
5
   |
Posted - 2012.04.07 18:00:00 -
[91] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:Perfect example of the forum morons I was talking about ;)
I don't even see the point you're making... You're talking about TC's? The same module that can benefit EVERY turret? Regardless of ship bonuses or race? The same module that will help Pulses have better tracking will help Blasters and Autocannons have better tracking, still being better than the Pulses. Or is there some other point up your a** you're trying to force out? Don't give yourself a hernia trying though...
I'd like to also point out that I always carry various crystals around with me for their range/tracking/damage differences as well as changing scripts in my TC's as necessary. I apply this same tactic when using all of the other various turrets, also. So get back under your bridge.
So those are waste and cap recharger is better?
Apoc with 3x CCC and 4x Cap Recharger II is fail. |
m3talc0re X
SandStorm.
The Babylon Consortium
72
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 19:07:00 -
[92] - Quote
Then don't fit 3x ccc's and 4x cap recharger II's to a damn Apoc... I am assuming this is for missions?
Quote:
[Apocalypse, PVE - Pulses T2 Fit]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Tracking Enhancer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
I'm cap stable with this... |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 19:10:00 -
[93] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:I'm cap stable with this...
There is your problem. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
742
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 19:46:00 -
[94] - Quote
A laserboat with Scorch dealing 300 paper dps will do more damage at its optimal range (20 km?) than an autocannon ship dealing 300 paper dps with Barrage. Falloff reduces damage. Optimal does not. Stick to lasers' optimal range, and they also have good tracking. Using an 8 km optimal laser at 500m causes shittastic tracking... and that's to be expected, or lasers would be auto-win-guns.
Autocannon Damage
Because of the range factor and their low base damage, autocannons *do* have ****-poor performance. For example, med-tier small weapons at maximum skills:
- 3x 150mm Light Autocannon II with faction ammo: 80 DPS at optimal range of 675 m and falloff 5.5 km.
- 3x Dual Light Pulse Laser II with faction multifreq: 80.8 DPS at optimal range of 3.38 km and falloff 1.88 km.
- 3x Light Ion Blaster II with faction antimatter: 107 DPS at optimal range of 938 m and falloff 2.5 km.
The autocannons will never do their whole DPS because of their abysmal optimal range. The lasers might if you fly your ship right at around 3-3.5 km, and the blasters will do most of it if you stay at 1km-ish. While yes, the autocannons will do more damage at 6 km than either the lasers or the blasters, they are overall a lower DPS option than either one... unless you put them on a ship that gets bonuses to autocannon damage, which brings them in line with the other weapons (e.g. the Rifter). Please learn about falloff before white-knighting your genius.
Tracking is another matter altogether, and there are techniques to mitigate bad tracking, or people trying to get under your guns. In fact, I have had more success with putting a Tracking Enhancer on a Punisher than I have had with a Heat Sink.
Artillery range/tracking: Alpha strikes aren't always guaranteed to hit, and smart targets dodge shots before they are taken. The range and tracking bonuses are the reason Muninn is better at sniping than Hurricane is, even if Hurricane technically has more alpha.
Blaster range/tracking: I was comparing basic T1 ships with basic equipment (no T2 ammo) as the latter adds too many nuances. Still, fitting blasters on a Rifter gets you killed by another Rifter that can kill you from outside your range -- with regular ammo if you're using antimatter, or with Barrage if you switch to Null. An Incursus with Null has a far better chance of dealing with kiters.
Quote:Thanks to the tracking bonus on say, the Mega for example, you can fit tracking comps loaded with range scripts and STILL get better tracking than pulses on an Apoc.
Neutron Blaster Megathron has 4.5 km + 12.5 km range base. Mega Pulse Laser Apoc has 20.6 km + 10 km range base. The Apoc can track just fine at 20 km, just not at 4.5 km. If lasers tracked as well as blasters, there would be no reason to use blasters. If blasters tracked as poorly as lasers, they would never work . Range/tracking is a tradeoff.
Railgun range/tracking: A Ferox without range bonus would be better off fitting beam lasers. At equivalent ranges, lasers do slightly more damage, with 1.5x the tracking (ammo change notwithstanding). Add the range bonus and it becomes clear the Ferox is better off using railguns than beam lasers. That is what a bonus is supposed to do.
Laser cap usage: At (for example) 30 km range and taking other ship bonuses into the equation, beam lasers have: better damage than autocannons or blasters (but worse tracking); similar damage to railguns, with better tracking; more damage than artillery, with better tracking; ability to instantly switch crystals to match target range, for optimal damage application; little to no ammo use. Why not just stick them on any ship? Cap usage.
Changing the cap usage bonus to a cap recharge bonus would give more utility to Amarr ships, but until EFT warriors pull their heads out of their ass, all we're going to see is more autocannon fits "because they do more damage", more neut fits (which already work plenty well), and more whining about how lasers suck and need two bonuses.
Quote:In Guild Wars, the Mesmer skills were made to have long casting times and then the Mesmer bonus was "Fast Casting".
As it is with Lasers. Make them use lots of Capacitor then make the bonus "Capacitor use reduction".
You see, the bonus isn't really a bonus on any ship. Lower Damage weapons often get a Damage "bonus" on the ships they're supposed to be put on.
Perfect example from another MMO that works very hard on balance. Thank you.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian
Pinked
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 19:55:00 -
[95] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Amarr are fine. Caldari could use more mid slots.
I'd rather have an extra low to fit Nano's
Real Caldari Hull Tank (And Win doing so)
Support the EVE Version of Source Recoder! |
Jarvin Xadi
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.04.07 20:20:00 -
[96] - Quote
One thing that is slightly awkward is that while you see projectile weapons on all sorts of ships due to not using cap, you very rarely see lasers or hybrids on ships that are not bonused on them. Im ok with the current situation for the most part as when you pair ships with their respective racial weapons they are mostly balanced, but the projectile thing does stick out. Any rework of lasers/amarr ships (because you have to do both at the same time) would have to take into account this. |
Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden
The Laughing Men
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 21:38:00 -
[97] - Quote
You only see projectile weapons on lots of stuff due to EFT Warriors not using a magical thing called a damage graph.
Lasers make up for the crap speed of most Amarr fits by having a greater useful range of engagement than blasters or autocannons.
Damage at optimal (6.8 conflag 20 scorch) is 40%-150% better than autocannons. |
ElQuirko
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
517
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 22:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
Gitanmaxx wrote: Seriously guys, do you just post in every single thread completely unrelated BS for the hell of it.
Sorry, have you read these forums before? Of COURSE we do.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Shukuzen Kiraa
47-Ronin
Outer Ring Excavations Syndicate
84
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 22:46:00 -
[99] - Quote
All Amarr ships should have a Role bonus for using lasers, that way we don't end up sacrificing one bonus to cap on every single damn ship lol. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp
AAA Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 22:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
More folks butt hurting over their ships and weaponry. Have you Caldari and Amarr folks forgot that Gallente were superior over you guys when before CCP broke the hybrids? some may not know but it was then that Gallente ships juked the amarr and Caldari PVP guys left an right.
Now that CCP fixed them and brought weapony in line with everyone you still complain. do whine in real life like a 2 year old when your favorite toy gets scuffed? yes you do |
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John Nucleus
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
14
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Posted - 2012.04.07 23:11:00 -
[101] - Quote
Without bonus laser are bad, with bonus they are great.
Without bonus AC are good, with bonus AC are great.
Add to that the higher cost to fit them for the small and medium size and amarr ships that doesn't have cap bonus but have turret slots will default to using auto cannons instead of lasers. Even with the cap bonus, many will default to using AC instead of laser because of the lower fitting cost. |
m3talc0re X
SandStorm.
The Babylon Consortium
73
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 00:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
Aww, the assumption that I don't know anything about turrets is cute... Spouting fairly common knowledge, lol. I'm bouncin' outta this thread. Like I said OP, wasting your breath. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
742
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 00:40:00 -
[103] - Quote
John Nucleus wrote:Without bonus AC are good
Not really, you never kill anything unless you're sitting on their face, and even then it's slowly.
John Nucleus wrote:Add to that the higher cost to fit them for the small and medium size
That is a valid point that hasn't been brought up yet. If there is any inherent unbalance in how weapons work currently, it's the fact that small and medium autocannons cost peanuts to fit. I mean, it makes Minmatar ships absolutely unable to use blasters or lasers effectively, but it also makes autocannons easy-mode fitting for other races when cap/fittings is a problem and DPS isn't.
Part of that is tiering. The Omen has less PG/CPU available than the Rupture, even though its racial guns need more PG/CPU, and that really shouldn't be the case. It's because the Omen is a ~lower tier~ ship. CCP is fixing that, and let's hope they do it right.
However, autocannon Punisher shouldn't be a working fitting any more than laser Rifter is. Maybe there aren't enough advantages to fitting lasers on ships that only get cap bonus towards them, but eliminating the cap bonus is not a solution (or laser Rifter will become a thing).
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 05:40:00 -
[104] - Quote
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:All Amarr ships should have a Role bonus for using lasers, that way we don't end up sacrificing one bonus to cap on every single damn ship lol.
Not sure if serious.
When they start ship balancing I sure hope they look into PG/CPU issues on some hulls. Because that's main problem for Amarr ships.
And before "train AWU to level 5, noob". Sorry I already got that.  |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
540
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 06:56:00 -
[105] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:More folks butt hurting over their ships and weaponry. Have you Caldari and Amarr folks forgot that Gallente were superior over you guys when before CCP broke the hybrids? some may not know but it was then that Gallente ships juked the amarr and Caldari PVP guys left an right.
Now that CCP fixed them and brought weapony in line with everyone you still complain. do whine in real life like a 2 year old when your favorite toy gets scuffed? yes you do
Well if it was that simple..
Gallente ate Caldari and Amarr left right and centre because of a combination of: a) nos sucking cap even when target had none, essentially giving you infinite cap, which worked especially well on droneboats or the Minmatar dual-weapon platforms. b) CCP had not yet done the hp buffs, and we had no rigs, back then, so our ships were essentially made of paper too, put this in coop with the nossing and active tank was king. c) some t2 modules were in many cases ridicilously expensive, often unreasonable to use in PvP, I remember my Pilgrim costing 75mil but the Cov Ops Cloak 150, for example. Good thing Cap Recharger II was not a PvP module.. d) Gallente and Minmatar have always had spare mids, something Amarr and Caldari lacks, and back then sensor damps were ridicilously powerful. e) no bandwidth yet. Add these things up and you'll see that 'extra mids', 'can use highs for nos instead of damage modules', 'good drone bay', automaticly made your ship alot more powerful.
(consider you having 2-3 90% webs on you, getting multiple nos'd, so you'd have to drop your guns to nos people back just to be able to run your tank and guns.. while you have no mids to damp/web them, and a weaker dronebay, so yah, Amarr/Caldari was in the complete shitter by default - but nothing of this had to do with lasers or the cap bonus being 'bad')
If we go even further back we can start to talk about the original version of missiles too, splash damage and 100% damage regardless of your targets size, and we could start debate no stacking nerf on modules, etc.
My point? Is that you are wasting air for nothing. It's true that between races, it's pretty damn balanced today, I would stick my neck out and say that EVE never been as balanced as it is right now. There are certain shiptypes that are predominant at times, but often it's FOTM and just a matter of finding the proper counter (i.e. no issues with the ships/weapons). If you had pointed that out I'd agreed with you. But now you are asking people to 'not complain', and if you had bothered to actually read this thread you'd see the OP is not whining. He just wants the cap bonus to be something else, to try to make a bigger variety between Amarr ships, and perhaps utilize this to pigeonhole them into certain roles.
Anyways, it's a dead old topic, this has been discussed over and over through the years. Most replies will be a mix of trolling, people who misunderstand the OP, butthurt players who want to defend or attack race X or Y, etc. It just can't be constructive - if you really want it to develop into something useful, you should have a proper suggestion delivered, and post in the feature-section. Let it be debated where it should be, but you still have to give a suggestion for an alternative to the current situation, else the thread will just wander off topic immediately.
shiptoastin' liek a baws |
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