Amarr are fine. Caldari could use more mid slots.

Amarr are fine. Caldari could use more mid slots.

Because of ~Scorch~

Change it to a cap recharge bonus... :)

This.

Properly done it could shift Amarr firmly into the Active Repair category of ships as well, and gives them obvious advantages in using Neuts.

Other ships not being able to use lasers in most cases is intentional, and should remain so.

All I read was "I want to mix weapons on my ships."

This.

Properly done it could shift Amarr firmly into the Active Repair category of ships as well, and gives them obvious advantages in using Neuts.

Other ships not being able to use lasers in most cases is intentional, and should remain so.

is there a new dev blog or are you talking about the one from a few weeks ago?

Ahh you made me believe there was a new dev blog I hadn't read yet.... Shame on you.

So to re word because it wasn't exactly clear... You want more bonuses besides cap efficiency?

Change it to a cap recharge bonus... :)

You're correct, i think they should find a different way to make lasers usable without that having to be a ship bonus to every amarr ship.

so giving the caldari missile ships a bonus to missile damage and or rate of fire isnt a case of "you can use the weapons you already use?" i for one love the amarr cap reduction bonus for amarr ships. it's not "use the weapons you can already use" it's more along the lines of "use the guns designed for your ship more efficiently"

All right since you asked so nicely I will agree that you should have split weapon systems for Amar ships and granting a 5% rof to both your lasers and missiles. Thus giving you the two weapon bonuses you desire.

The Vengeance and Sacrilege have that already. It is one of the reasons they are so ungodly powerful: you have to get really lucky with a neut to turn off their afterburner/point/web, and they are even cap stable with a single repper running. Do you really want all Amarr ships to be able to do that?

Also, lasers are perfectly fine being balanced via cap. They have by far the best damage projection of any weapon system (because ~Scorch~) and if they track and stay at their optimal range with any other ammo, they will outdo all other weapon systems in DPS.

Amarr ships already get two bonuses. Deal with it.

(Yes, I do actually fly Amarr ships, and aside from stuff like the Omen and Prophecy, they are fine.)

Are you really arguing that Amarr need a buff? If so, please kindly skill yourself.

Change it to a cap recharge bonus... :)

The Vengeance and Sacrilege have that already. It is one of the reasons they are so ungodly powerful: you have to get really lucky with a neut to turn off their afterburner/point/web, and they are even cap stable with a single repper running. Do you really want all Amarr ships to be able to do that?

Also, lasers are perfectly fine being balanced via cap. They have by far the best damage projection of any weapon system (because ~Scorch~) and if they track and stay at their optimal range with any other ammo, they will outdo all other weapon systems in DPS.

Amarr ships already get two bonuses. Deal with it.

(Yes, I do actually fly Amarr ships, and aside from stuff like the Omen and Prophecy, they are fine.)

I'm a noob so I don't pretend to know everything.

As such are they ways of the noobs. They do not remember the times when _any_ BS was fitting Tachyons.

Very true. Lazers should be difficult to use on another races ships, otherwise they would have too many secondary advantages. A capacitor issue needs to be there, but I think a cap recharge bonus would be far better as it would open up a lot of options in both PVE and PVP.

The cap reduction bonus is from a time when lasers were superior to other weapon system. That's a long time ago and they aren't anymore, the bonus needs to be reevaluated.

depends on the ship... many times the cap bonus is useless. like the prophecy. sometimes you want it though... so it depends on the ship.
but yea something should be done, maybe a tracking bonus, aren't lasers supposed to have the best tracking? makes sense since.. you know, speed of light, laser.

Very true. Lazers should be difficult to use on another races ships, otherwise they would have too many secondary advantages. A capacitor issue needs to be there, but I think a cap recharge bonus would be far better as it would open up a lot of options in both PVE and PVP.

The cap reduction bonus is from a time when lasers were superior to other weapon system. That's a long time ago and they aren't anymore, the bonus needs to be reevaluated.

Are you really arguing that Amarr need a buff? If so, please kindly skill yourself.

While some amarr ships are great the way they are, others need to be looked into. OP isn't asking for a massive buff to all amarr ship, just that the cap reduction bonus be looked into.

GALLENTE NEEDS TO GO FASTER.

Confirming hybrids need to be finished and the missile system requires some loving way before lasers.

I think you are missing the point that all races have some bonus to their ships designed to make fitting the intended weapons a feasible choice.

Damage, cap and whatever bonus is just another way to write "use these weapons on this ship".

And the only rebuttle anyone has had to it is "..but scorch!" well if that's the one single reason for this, and every other laser set up has to be gimped because scorch and every single ship needs one of it's two ship bonuses used up just to counteract scorch. Perhaps fixing scorch is a much more logical and simple solution than screwing up everything else to account for scorch.

The more I read your responses, the more I feel that you are talking about something you have no idea about. Scorch is an awesome part of lasers just as Barrage is an awesome part of autocannons. It is perfectly in line.

Just because a Hurricane appears to do more turret damage in EFT than a Harbinger doesn't mean it actually does more damage. With plain close range ammo (multifreq/emp), the Harbinger outdoes the Hurricane on the range of 4 km - 12 km, while having a tougher tank, and better drones. The Harbinger's optimal range is 7.5 km. With Scorch/Barrage, the Harbinger outdoes the Hurricane at all ranges over 5 km. Its optimal is 22.5 km. Such is the case with all laser boats compared to other turrets: when laser boats stick to their optimal range, regardless of the ammo in use, they will outdamage other weapon systems most of the time. The difficulty comes in not letting the enemy get at point blank and under your guns.

If the cap bonus were replaced with a tracking bonus (or other direct combat bonus), that would:

1. Make cap mods required on all laser ships that get into extended fights. Having to sacrifice a slot to make lasers work would cause even more whining than having to sacrifice a bonus to make them work does.
2. Turn lasers into a general purpose win-weapon. We don't need that.

Additionally, if point (a) were eliminated by making lasers more cap-friendly, every ship of other races that doesn't get a damage/tracking bonus to its own weapon system would default to lasers -- the way some of them default to autocannons now.

Each weapon system has one critical fault that makes them be un-optimal for use on just any ship. The specific race of ships works to remedy that:

• Autocannons have cripplingly low DPS, and Minmatar ships rectify that with damage bonuses.
• Artillery has very poor optimal range and tracking, and some Minmatar ships rectify that.
• Blasters have very poor range, and tracking for that range. Gallente ships give falloff or tracking bonuses to fix that.
• Railguns have mediocre range, and Caldari fix that with a spectacular range bonus (10%!).
• Lasers use all of the cap in existence, and Amarr fix that with cap usage bonus.

Just because a ship gets a damage bonus doesn't make it better, and just becuase it has a higher DPS number doesn't mean it actually does more damage. The sooner EFT warriors can get that through their thick skulls, the sooner we can have more glorious flashlights in space, and fewer autocannons everywhere.

Never used EFT....so there's that cleared up.

And the more you reply the more I feel as if you're trying to argue some ghost point I'm not making.

I don't know what the solution is, I've never stated anything that even closely resembles saying that I do. What I do know with complete certainty is that there is a design flaw in the way lasers are balanced with the ship bonus. It's just bad design and needs to be looked at because it's creating one flaw to fix another.
The ship bonuses should encourage certain equipment, tactics, or roles. Currently the amarr ships must have a certain bonus or their weapon is completely and utterly unusable. That is bad design and no one with any sort of logical thinking can deny that.
now what's the solution? I don't know, someone who knows more about the workings of the game can figure that one out like you guys. But trying to pigeon hole what I'm saying into something it's not isn't constructive.

Each weapon system has one critical fault that makes them be un-optimal for use on just any ship. The specific race of ships works to remedy that:

• Autocannons have cripplingly low DPS, and Minmatar ships rectify that with damage bonuses.
• Artillery has very poor optimal range and tracking, and some Minmatar ships rectify that.
• Blasters have very poor range, and tracking for that range. Gallente ships give falloff or tracking bonuses to fix that.
• Railguns have mediocre range, and Caldari fix that with a spectacular range bonus (10%!).
• Lasers use all of the cap in existence, and Amarr fix that with cap usage bonus.

Just because a ship gets a damage bonus doesn't make it better, and just becuase it has a higher DPS number doesn't mean it actually does more damage. The sooner EFT warriors can get that through their thick skulls, the sooner we can have more glorious flashlights in space, and fewer autocannons everywhere.

I think that's why the Cap Recharge bonus should be considered.

Lasers, aside from cap use, are a superior weapons system compared to the others.

A completely unrelated bonus could easily make Amarr ships over powered.

A cap recharge bonus leaves laser use the way it is, but promotes the use of alternative tactics. One of which being to make active tanking in PVP (something CCP has been trying to encourage and make viable) a serious option for PVP. It would also make a wider variety of Amarr boats able to seriously consider using Nuets than currently do. It would encourage a certain higher degree of weapons and tactics variety without losing the Amarr flavor or over powering them.

To clarify, the current Reduced Cap use bonus only helps Amarr use lasers... while a Cap Recharge bonus achieves the same result and also benefits active tanking (dual rep) and neut use.

Helpful without being overpowered.

Also i'm not sure weapons should be balanced around an ammo type t2 none the less in which everyone does not have access to due to skilling. Rather ammo should be balanced around the weapons system. I see a lot of people say lasers are fine "because they have scorch."

That's all well and dandy, but what other systems do you ever see that argument? AC's aren't good just due to Barrage or RF EMP... Heavy missiles aren't good because of their t2 ammo etc.

Just because one ammo type is "WTF amazing" doesn't mean systems (in this cases bonuses) shouldnt be evaluated.

You've never pre-planned or analyzed a fit for its advantages or disadvantages... so there's that cleared up. You are probably not qualified to talk about the relative balance of ships and their bonuses.



Okay, so just to your point, allow me to repeat myself:


Every weapon system has a disadvantage. Lasers' disadvantage is cap use. Amarr ships fix that.

Deal with it.

And Tachyon beams.

I don't need years of experience to know that 2 ship bonuses is better than 1. And that with a combination of two you have more design elements to play with when developing and distinguishing ships. I have this thing called simple logic and the ability to do first grade math.

by your own explanation you've proved my point. Every weapon system has downsides, but only amarr ships racial weapon is completely crippled by not dedicating one of their two ship bonuses to fixing an issue without actually adding a benefit.

So don't meander down your little rabbit hole of trying to say I'm arguing amarr needs a buff, or needs more damage, or that one little number somewhere needs changed. It's an idea, not a specific number somewhere I'm referring to. And that idea is that the devs are going to have trouble making amarr ship designs unique or role defined when they only ever have one single ship bonus opposed to the two that they can mix and match for other races. The capacitor bonus on amarr ships is a lame way to fix a not so great design.

A more creative, logical, and effective way of balancing lasers other than making one poor design decision to fix another poor design decision.

Where as with other races you have more to play with to come up with unique concepts or create ships that aren't black and white better or worse than each other but that fill different roles.
- the ship with speed bonus and tracking bonus for hit and run
- the ship with repair bonus and range bonus for a slow ship of the line feel
- the ship with drone damage and targeting range bonus

^

No **** he was saying it would add more variety/role if they were... Hypothetical... Rather than the status quo of Cap, damage, resists, and range.

Those ships do not exist. Please stop pulling things out of your ass.

^

No **** he was saying it would add more variety/role if they were... Hypothetical... Rather than the status quo of Cap, damage, resists, and range.

Actually, you need a deeper understanding of combat mechanics, situations, and all attributes of a weapon to say that it is "better", not just first grade math. Something you don't appear to have.



Okay, let's compare to a popular race that gets ~two bonuses~: Minmatar. Which commonly autocannon-fit ships have a damage bonus? Rifter, Thrasher, Stabber, Rupture, Bellicose, Cyclone, Hurricane, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest, Maelstrom.

Oh, what's that? Looks like all Minmatar ships have a blanket bonus to low AC damage to make ACs workable! Funny, just like the cap bonus on Amarr ships! The other bonuses vary between tracking, falloff, or optimal range to give variety in roles.

Maybe that's a fluke. Let's check out the Caldari hybrid platforms! Which ones have an optimal range bonus? Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh, so... all of them? Huh! It's almost as if Railguns are only good on Caldari ships and not the other races' ships because it is only on Caldari ships that they can take full advantage of their range.

What about these pesky laser ships? Which ones have a cap bonus? Punisher, Coercer, Omen, Maller, Prophecy, Harbinger, Oracle, Armageddon, Apocalypse. Seems reminiscent of the Minmatar line-up! What about that second bonus, does it provide variety too? Well, it varies between armor tank, damage, and optimal range, so it looks like it!

The only exception is the Abaddon, which, while it is a wonderful mainline ship with its armor tank and damage bonus, has well-known cap problems, and even at perfect skills firing 8 mega pulse lasers makes it dry out in less than 5 minutes.

The lesson of the day? A ship's role is not usually defined by both of its bonuses! One of the bonuses of T1 ships just makes the weapon system it's supposed to use viable, while the second defines the role of the ship. This is as true of Amarr as it is of other races. Working. As. Intended.

so if it was working as intended then why in the dev blog and the eve fanfest did CCP speak about how ship roles aren't defined well enough and very early design decisions have restricted their ability to be more creative with ship design leading to so many ships that aren't flown? Sounds like you're the only one who thinks it's working as intended.

This is hypothetical conjecture in the spirit of the dev blog about lack of variety and issues with half the ships having no clear role or reason to even fly. And one of the big factors to this in my opinion, for amarr particularly, is that every ship must have a bonus to cap on lasers to even make them usable. That's a bad design choice. Simple as that.

"but but scorch. but but damage. but but..." then change those things as well to fit the philosophy and fun, not limit everything because one type of ammo would be OP if you changed ships to be more varied.

Most of those comments centered around the tiering of ships by design IIRC and the lack of any specific benefit with choices within a race and not the viability of one race in particular due to a specific bonus. You are applying some broad statements in ways they may not even have been intended.

And there are people who disagree. Caldari range and Gallente damage bonuses are designed around much the same principle of making their weapons useable in the face of other weapons systems with superior range to blasters(everything else) and superior DPS to rails(again, everything else). It's fundamentally no different.

Those things as they are represent the philosophy of lasers as I understand them:
Good damage
Great range for short range weapons
No ammo for T1, reduced consumption for T2/Faction
Greatest optimal which means better damage projection than weapons which rely on falloff for range
Best tracking at optimal, which means better damage application
Very cap hungry to balance this - Some hulls give a bonus to reduce this strain on the ships ability to leverage the other advantages

Something to keep in mind when talking about "Amarr" is that Amarr ships are completely ******* useless and ******.

But scorch is completely overpowered. It evens out to mediocrity.

Also, gotta laugh at people talking about Tachs. 2 Ships can use them effectively, one of them isn't even an amarr ship. The other has been in the game less than three months.

Right now Scorch is the crutch upon which almost all "mainline" Amarr ships use in PvP and PvE.

Also, gotta laugh at people talking about Tachs. 2 Ships can use them effectively, one of them isn't even an amarr ship. The other has been in the game less than three months.

The only exception is the Abaddon, which, while it is a wonderful mainline ship with its armor tank and damage bonus, has well-known cap problems, and even at perfect skills firing 8 mega pulse lasers makes it dry out in less than 5 minutes.

I want to add.. the cap reduction bonus of lasers shall be tacked on the spaceship command skill itself, not the ship.

Every weapon system has a disadvantage. Lasers' disadvantage is cap use. Amarr ships fix that.

Deal with it.

Each weapon system has one critical fault that makes them be un-optimal for use on just any ship. The specific race of ships works to remedy that:

Not all laserboats have that bonus, and those that do not have to be really careful about their cap. Making lasers not require a ship bonus to be used easily would welcome laser-fitted Myrmidons, Rokhs, Moas, Merlins, along with absolutely breaking some ships that are balanced by cap-tightness, like the Blood Raider lineup.

That's just pure ignorance. Do you even check things before posting things you pull out of your ass? You DO realize that Blasters and Autocannons both have better tracking than Pulses, right?

I used to remember the days where lasers where extremly powerful and capaictor use was thier delimiting factor.

That's why you want to use mid slots for tracking computers or web, not for cap.

Edit: And learn to change crystals.

Perfect example of the forum morons I was talking about ;)

I don't even see the point you're making... You're talking about TC's? The same module that can benefit EVERY turret? Regardless of ship bonuses or race? The same module that will help Pulses have better tracking will help Blasters and Autocannons have better tracking, still being better than the Pulses. Or is there some other point up your a** you're trying to force out? Don't give yourself a hernia trying though...

I'd like to also point out that I always carry various crystals around with me for their range/tracking/damage differences as well as changing scripts in my TC's as necessary. I apply this same tactic when using all of the other various turrets, also. So get back under your bridge.

[Apocalypse, PVE - Pulses T2 Fit]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Tracking Enhancer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

I'm cap stable with this...

~snip~

Thanks to the tracking bonus on say, the Mega for example, you can fit tracking comps loaded with range scripts and STILL get better tracking than pulses on an Apoc.

In Guild Wars, the Mesmer skills were made to have long casting times and then the Mesmer bonus was "Fast Casting".
As it is with Lasers. Make them use lots of Capacitor then make the bonus "Capacitor use reduction".

You see, the bonus isn't really a bonus on any ship. Lower Damage weapons often get a Damage "bonus" on the ships they're supposed to be put on.

Amarr are fine. Caldari could use more mid slots.

Seriously guys, do you just post in every single thread completely unrelated BS for the hell of it.

Without bonus AC are good

Add to that the higher cost to fit them for the small and medium size

All Amarr ships should have a Role bonus for using lasers, that way we don't end up sacrificing one bonus to cap on every single damn ship lol.

More folks butt hurting over their ships and weaponry. Have you Caldari and Amarr folks forgot that Gallente were superior over you guys when before CCP broke the hybrids? some may not know but it was then that Gallente ships juked the amarr and Caldari PVP guys left an right.

Now that CCP fixed them and brought weapony in line with everyone you still complain. do whine in real life like a 2 year old when your favorite toy gets scuffed? yes you do