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Makhan	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:20:00 - [1] You have a hold full of goods, you encounter a busy market with no orders Do you: A. Sell at the regional average B. Sell at the average price around the regions C. Jack the price up to as high as the market will bear (Hint: the answer is C). You are undercutted by .01 isk. Do you: A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk C. Ragequit the market D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more (Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.) You encounter a market with one sell order, at a price that you know is 3x the build cost of the item. Do you: A. Undercut to what the price is in other regions B. Undercut by .01 isk C. Buy the product so you can see who sold it so you can rail on them for being unethical (Answer is B). The market for your products is getting worse, so you decide to mine all the needed minerals to make all the minerals free in your build cost. You are: A. Dumb B. Misinformed C. Clueless D. All of the above (D)
Emi Raaf Emi Raaf's Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:53:00 - [2] Ahh, someone thinking in the same way as me. Don't expect this topic to make any difference since the people presented above are probably too dumb to even find their way to the forums.
Dark 'Shadow Shadow Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.11.17 17:56:00 - [3] Originally by: Emi Raaf Ahh, someone thinking in the same way as me. Don't expect this topic to make any difference since the people presented above are probably too dumb to even find their way to the forums. +1
Banana Torres Look Ma I did a Test	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:22:00 - [4] You should get out and try PvPing with laz0rs if you are finding market PvP a bit stressful.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:37:00 - [5] Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2008 18:38:37 Originally by: Makhan You are undercutted by .01 isk. Do you: A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk C. Ragequit the market D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more (Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.) The fact that you've ruined the market for everybody makes D the correct answer… …and no-one is saying you need to stay at that low price (unless you need your stuff to be sold this very instant). Just sit back and laugh as they start killing each other at close-to-loss prices because they're stupid. (Yes, it happens… ) No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Augeas	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:37:00 - [6] Quote: You are undercutted by .01 isk. Do you: A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk C. Ragequit the market D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more (Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.) No, this is the classic clueless 0.01-ISK lemming error. The correct course of action, if you find yourself immediately undercut in a busy market hub, is to make a hefty undercut yourself. 10%, 50%, 80% of the profit, whatever. The objective is to persuade your opponent to either a) not undercut you back, allowing you sales and profit, or b) to buy up your order, generating profit and allowing you to repeat the process for extra lolz or c) forcing your competitor to undercut back. If C happens, then you can either be happy that you've cut his profits and griefed him at no cost to yourself, or you can try another hefty undercut and see who blinks first...
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Augeas Quote: You are undercutted by .01 isk. Do you: A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk C. Ragequit the market D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more (Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.) No, this is the classic clueless 0.01-ISK lemming error. The correct course of action, if you find yourself immediately undercut in a busy market hub, is to make a hefty undercut yourself. 10%, 50%, 80% of the profit, whatever. The objective is to persuade your opponent to either a) not undercut you back, allowing you sales and profit, or b) to buy up your order, generating profit and allowing you to repeat the process for extra lolz or c) forcing your competitor to undercut back. If C happens, then you can either be happy that you've cut his profits and griefed him at no cost to yourself, or you can try another hefty undercut and see who blinks first... Only that dosen't happen, and people with large amounts of stock just keep undercutting to the new level and the market average goes down. Then you lose isk.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.17 18:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Plim Only that dosen't happen, and people with large amounts of stock just keep undercutting to the new level and the market average goes down. Then you lose isk. You only lose ISK if you actually sell at that price. Once you've depressed the sell price, it's time to make money. Yes, he'll make money too, but much less than he wanted… No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:02:00 - [9] Quote: You are undercutted by .01 isk. B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk What if I want to undercut you by a huge margin to get you to drop your whole load .01 ISK below me just so I can buy all your stuff cheaper and put it back on the market at the original price? That won't work for all commodities, but might work for some if one wants to corner a certain market.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:08:00 - [10] I rarely undercut. It's annoying and ultimately price degenerating. I rather sell at the same price other people sell at the same station. Generates a much more relaxed and friendly market with profits for all. -------- Ideas for: Mining

mentalmonkey Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:10:00 - [11] /agree with OP, I don't play the market that much but in the times when I am to get some ISK it annoys me when people do not go by the guide lines above. Other posters are right that there are occasions when big price cuts are good, but these are fairly rare for items I trade in.
Augeas	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Plim Only that dosen't happen, and people with large amounts of stock just keep undercutting to the new level and the market average goes down. Then you lose isk. Know your market.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Plim Only that dosen't happen, and people with large amounts of stock just keep undercutting to the new level and the market average goes down. Then you lose isk. You only lose ISK if you actually sell at that price. Once you've depressed the sell price, it's time to make money. Yes, he'll make money too, but much less than he wantedà Yes I know this. I have made billions from allowing the price to lower significantly, then buying up all the stock in a trade hub. But it's not as simple as that. There are various factors involved, such as the volume of stock, and the amount of price change. As I always say in these debates, most people are choosing some arbitrary figure, which ultimately just results in the market value going down and everyone (including themselves) losing profit. They aren't engaging in some grand strategy (you realise this is EVE right?). Remember that as long as you have the lowest price at a trade hub, you essentially have a monopoly. But most people undercut by an amount which will not increase the rate of the sale, so they are essentially undervaluing their stock (for example, it is not sufficiently low to encourage resale, and it won't encourage the non-trading buying to buy anymore than the previous price). These undercuts acumulate over time and the average comes down, so by the time they do sell, they have lost a large part of their profit margin. While if they had gone the 0.1 isk route, they may have lost 100 isk off the original sale value, they end up losing millions. I know saying this won't change anything, i'm just highlighting what I have observed. You just try deal with irrationality in the EVE market the best way you can.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:19:00 - [14] Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2008 19:20:27 Well, it depends what role you take: a producer who needs to unload his stock, or a trader who has no interest in accidentally selling his market manipulation tool? The role dictates the strategy.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:21:00 - [15] Do you: A. Expect people to play by your rules. B. Realize that's futile and just enjoy the game taking it all in good stride.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Do you: A. Expect people to play by your rules. B. Realize that's futile and just enjoy the game taking it all in good stride. C. Make them play by your rules
Kehmor Caldari Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:24:00 - [17] You are assuming everyone on the market built or bought their stock. When I am selling, it is because I took it from someone else. Therefore I don't really care if I am selling for less than I could be providing I sell quickly. Isk tied up in goods does me no good, and I can't be asked to tend to my sell orders for a second longer than is neccesary. If I **** off people like yourself, then that is just an added bonus.
Taima Khan	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Plim Originally by: Augeas Quote: You are undercutted by .01 isk. Do you: A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk C. Ragequit the market D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more (Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.) No, this is the classic clueless 0.01-ISK lemming error. The correct course of action, if you find yourself immediately undercut in a busy market hub, is to make a hefty undercut yourself. 10%, 50%, 80% of the profit, whatever. The objective is to persuade your opponent to either a) not undercut you back, allowing you sales and profit, or b) to buy up your order, generating profit and allowing you to repeat the process for extra lolz or c) forcing your competitor to undercut back. If C happens, then you can either be happy that you've cut his profits and griefed him at no cost to yourself, or you can try another hefty undercut and see who blinks first... Only that dosen't happen, and people with large amounts of stock just keep undercutting to the new level and the market average goes down. Then you lose isk. No. Then THEY loose isks. I MAKE them by buying out everything at just about reprocess mineral value, relisting at normal prices (or above if there's no more competition) all the stock that I think the market will move before finding fresh supplies and reprocessing the rest.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Kehmor You are assuming everyone on the market built or bought their stock. When I am selling, it is because I took it from someone else. Therefore I don't really care if I am selling for less than I could be providing I sell quickly. Isk tied up in goods does me no good, and I can't be asked to tend to my sell orders for a second longer than is neccesary. If I ** off people like yourself, then that is just an added bonus. Then you need to sell it at a sufficiently low value to get someone to buy it all and resell it. Otherwise you are still stuck in the undercutting war. You seem to misunderstand the problem, you aren't **ing anyone off if you undercut by such a large amount that they don't have to undercut you and devaluate their stock, quite the opposite, because it will all get bought up straight away. So what you are saying is not relevant to this debate.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Taima Khan Originally by: Plim Originally by: Augeas Quote: You are undercutted by .01 isk. Do you: A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk C. Ragequit the market D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more (Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.) No, this is the classic clueless 0.01-ISK lemming error. The correct course of action, if you find yourself immediately undercut in a busy market hub, is to make a hefty undercut yourself. 10%, 50%, 80% of the profit, whatever. The objective is to persuade your opponent to either a) not undercut you back, allowing you sales and profit, or b) to buy up your order, generating profit and allowing you to repeat the process for extra lolz or c) forcing your competitor to undercut back. If C happens, then you can either be happy that you've cut his profits and griefed him at no cost to yourself, or you can try another hefty undercut and see who blinks first... Only that dosen't happen, and people with large amounts of stock just keep undercutting to the new level and the market average goes down. Then you lose isk. No. Then THEY loose isks. I MAKE them by buying out everything at just about reprocess mineral value, relisting at normal prices (or above if there's no more competition) all the stock that I think the market will move before finding fresh supplies and reprocessing the rest. That's quite a specific strategy. I explained the mechanisms I was refering to earlier. If that is working for you, stick with it.

K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Abrazzar I rarely undercut. It's annoying and ultimately price degenerating. I rather sell at the same price other people sell at the same station. Generates a much more relaxed and friendly market with profits for all. I usually go 1 Isk below, and then go off to do other things. I sell some of the items (or all) and when the other player undercuts me by 1 or .01 Isk, he gets his chance at selling. I'm not going to sit at the market, and constantly check my prices, but I will check twice a day. The market is thus "shared" and everyone gets a chance at selling their stuff at roughly the same profit margin. Some players forget that we provide a service to other players who need our stuff. I've always felt that the "sharing" market concept made the most Isk for all over time. If you've got to sell your stuff in a hurry for some reason, by all means undercut drastically. Whenever I need 2 of a certain module, I always buy more if the price is good (?!?). That is, thinking a much cheaper price will sell more is stupid. Players only buy what they need. Drastic undercutting wrecks the market for all, and since I'm not going to play those games, I'll just sit on my stuff until the price goes up, the undercutter sells out, or take it to another market. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Kehmor Caldari Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Plim Originally by: Kehmor You are assuming everyone on the market built or bought their stock. When I am selling, it is because I took it from someone else. Therefore I don't really care if I am selling for less than I could be providing I sell quickly. Isk tied up in goods does me no good, and I can't be asked to tend to my sell orders for a second longer than is neccesary. If I ** off people like yourself, then that is just an added bonus. Then you need to sell it at a sufficiently low value to get someone to buy it all and resell it. Otherwise you are still stuck in the undercutting war. You seem to misunderstand the problem, you aren't **ing anyone off if you undercut by such a large amount that they don't have to undercut you and devaluate their stock, quite the opposite, because it will all get bought up straight away. So what you are saying is not relevant to this debate. Who says I want it all to be bought up straight away? I merely study the regional averages and then take a big chunk out of the profit. Not enough that resellers will buy it, just to ensure it will stay on he lower end of the market. It doesn't matter to me if it takes a couple weeks to sell, just so long as it doesn't take months and I don't have to tend to my orders. I think it is you who fails to fully understand the market, as I say, not everyone there is a trader or producer. People will sell in whatever way suits them, and just because it means it causes you stress doesn't make it wrong. Infact I would call that a goal in itself.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.17 19:44:00 - [23] You stated that you did't want to tend to sell orders for long periods of time. Undercutting by an amount which will not encourage resale at a trade hub is unlikely to effect the frequency at which you will have to tend to your sell order, because it will not effect the rate of the sale. Unless you are selling it somewhere else of course. But I was refering to the hubs. Also the statement about stress is a non-sequitur.
Kehmor Caldari Malevolent Emo Herders Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:03:00 - [24] Well in my experience you are wrong. Even when market battles are going on prices tend to return to the average. This ussually occurs when one sellers buys all the stock at the reduced price and resets the price to the average in order to profit. Now say I haev 25 of the said item on the market significantly lower than he wishes to sell, but not low enough to make it worth him buying. The said buyer will ussually be inclined to allow my stock to shift before his does just to save himself the hassle and avoid another market battle. Thus I sell at more than bulk price, but still a decent chunk lower than the average price. - Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes.
small chimp	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:04:00 - [25] With 0.01 isk undercutting many people can simulateouuiuiusny share the market for a long itme withourt really affecint to the price?!?!?!
Doctor Penguin Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:27:00 - [26] Wouldn't the smartest thing to do to undercut him as far as possible, buy all his stock when he retaliates as low as possible and sell it in another region for 2 or 3x profit? ________________________________________________
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:34:00 - [27] i exclusively use the market to grief people who use it to live. -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
motomysz Militek Industries Integrity Respect Selflessness	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Doctor Penguin Wouldn't the smartest thing to do to undercut him as far as possible, buy all his stock when he retaliates as low as possible and sell it in another region for 2 or 3x profit?
Laya Rale	Posted - 2008.11.17 20:53:00 - [29] I actually quite enjoy confusing people with 9's,8's and 6's. For instance, lets say we have an item priced 199,999,999.65 and someone undercuts you to *.64. Simply make your next price 199,989,999.63 and watch him set the price to 199,999,999.62 but still above your order. . But sometimes people don't quite know the market, undercut by a hefty amount (sometimes cutting the profit by 50%) and everybody follows. Sometimes when this happens and I know the market is healthy I simply let them sell at a low profit... letting the prices adjust within a day or two to get the 50% back. Also, the reason 0.01 isk wars are so easy is that you can use your mouse wheel to go down in 0.01 increments: rclick, change price, two mouse scrolls down, click ok. Much easier than manually editing the price: which is why it's nice to annoy people by undercutting with strange numbers and force them to do it manually. Often it means lazy undercutters lose patience and leave the market to you for longer. Actually, the fact you are posting this thread is proof that it works .
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.11.17 21:11:00 - [30] Undercutting by .01 ISK is lunacy if one wishes to spend minimum amount of time "babysitting" the market orders and gain maxim profit. I made billions undercutting by as much as 80-90% and then repeating the same tactic over and over, thus making my ISK by sheer volume sold. Number of times I have crashed the markets, and sold at bellow cost just to drive out the competition, or to force them to bring the prices down to a razor thin margin and then bought their stock, and resold. A few times someone was quick to my machination and bought my stocks at razor thin margins, I still made the ISK, but not as much - but that freed invested ISK and allowed me to repeat what I did. Only once it happened to me that someone bought my entire stock at bellow cost, and even then I lost like 300 mill, which was not a big deal. So, to all .01 undercutters, and all those who believe in that philosophy, I wish you many a happy hours of starring mindlessly at the computer screen, may your carpal-tunnel syndrome get worse with all the clicking and typing, and my you all bring me more profits in the future. Keep Up the good work! ::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::



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