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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Glengrant on 25/11/2008 11:39:28
To answer the OP: It collapsed.
Most of what has been said above is either half-true (quick over-expansion, etc...) or outright BS/Propaganda/rumor. PL did put a lot of pressure and BRUCEs fleet concept (not bad on paper given what was available) could not cope with better sniper fleets under EVEs fleet lag conditions (where remote repping is not much of a realistic option with 100+ of ships in system - at least at that time). Also a sizable number of known good fleet leaders were lost to burn-out and leaving corps.
Not enough capitals and later a reluctance to risk the existing capitals with the lack of good commanders.
Anybody who tells you that this or that single thing destroyed BRUCE has no clue.
While the leaving of Foom could have been handled better in a detail or 2 - they did not screw BRUCE. Key members of Foom invested insane amounts of time and effort into BRUCE over quite some time and I fully expected them to burn out sooner actually. Foom did leave quite a bit of assets and money with BRUCE that they could at least have argued about. I don't see how any corp - founder/executor or not - is required to stay with an alliance. That would be slavery.
A few other individuals did (sabotage, theft) - but they were just part of the cascade. None individually killed BRUCE.
It was a combination of things. Over-expansion in short time, burn-out of key people and some other stuff - some more, some less important.
PL was a real problem - but if they were the only problem BRUCE might have adapted and survived - as it did several times before.
On the whole it's nothing unusual and what happens to most (all?) alliances sooner or later. (Congrats to BoB BTW for still being around and weathering several crisis - a couple or so coming very close to killing it).
Fact is - sooner or later an alliance (same is true for corps on a smaller scale) will face a crisis. If that can't be resolved very quickly or if there is a series of several happening shortly in same timeframe morale suffers.
Internal strife grows as people look to blame somebody or argue about the best quick fix. This can easily lead to people leaving corps - or just go inactive.
That in turn leads to a corp or 2 leaving the alliance (there's always a fairweather corp or 2 who have no stomach for overcoming any challenge).
The initial drain of people, assets and activity - not bad at first, then often escalates the crisis. More blame game, more people/corp leaving or going inactive or get some stuff done in empire. The cascade has started and is soon very hard to stop. The alliance that stops such a cascade is rare.
At the end of the day - most people want instant fun action as soon as they log in (who can blame them - it's a game). As soon as things don't work as they used to they start to look elsewhere. And it's fairly easy to find other corps/alliances to join where there's no crisis at that point in time and just switch to greener meadows (rinse - repeat).
Almost no alliance gets beaten and destroyed in space. An alliance stubborn enough with members who just won't give up cannot be destroyed. They all fall by getting demoralized and then collapsing due to massive member loss.
Look at how many alliances of notice ever were in EVE - and how many of them are still here. Of those that are still around - most just haven't failed *yet*. Their component corps then show up in another alliances and the cycle starts anew.
When we went to Fountain we knew we took a risk. We knew our capitals and assets weren't yet what we planned - but there was a good opportunity and many members were already getting restless in Syndicate.
So we took that risk and a bit over half a year later got beaten and destroyed. In between was a glorious time though and I for one don't regret that we tried.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.25 23:36:00 -
[2]
MG, Fried, Jester, et al - good to see you guys are still around.
Yeah, I took ZB vanishing as the first sign of the burn-out I did expect in some people. I logged on at some fairly diverse times (I'm euro but often up until late local night so lap over into US east coast time) and there was always a high chance to see ZB and/or Fried (others too) active in alliance chat or fleet op.
That ZB didn't react to phone calls is a bit concerning - I hope he's OK.
cheers
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Glengrant
Minmatar
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.26 13:05:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Glengrant on 26/11/2008 13:06:17
Hey Mark o/
VP - err you know exactly what went wrong during the time you weren't there? ;-)
Personal opinion: You won't find a single single big alliance that is a real dictatorship or democracy - whatever they claim to be.
A "dictator" who doesn't know what the members want and acts according to his own whims only will soon find that few follow and many leave.
A "democracy" in EVE will almost have a very few who are most active while most follow their lead.
In the end whether an alliance calls themselves a democracy or a dictatorship it needs sufficient internal agreement either way. Lots of quarrels and power struggles will slow down a "dictatorship" just as much as a "democracy". And when everybody agrees a democracy can also decide very quickly.
Also - see "burn-out". One of the main reasons Fried gave when he resigned (IIRC) was that he would have needed more qualified people to share the workload. That didn't happen quickly enough. Again - see fast expansion.
BRUCE tripled in member size and gained plenty of territory (including all the POSs & logistics that come with that in true 0.0) in a short time and quickly became one of the biggest alliances, with plenty of work involved in managing that colossus. I found it impressive that ZB, Fried and others managed to keep at it in high gears for so long.
Again - anybody who tries to distill BRUCES failing in the end to a single simple point is off the mark.
If you want to have a single explanation it's the exploding expansion in space, members and problems involved with having a relatively fresh alliance in Fountain.
Anybody who wants this thread to die - stop bumping it with remarks about how it should RIP. ;-)
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Glengrant
Minmatar
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:52:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Narciss Sevar
We killed you.
True.
But not the whole truth.
The part that you are missing is that you killed BRUCE while it was exhausted and weakened.
BRUCE faced challenges before you guys - and overcame them.
A less exhausted alliances at the very least could have moved elsewhere even if we couldn't find a way to beat PL.
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Glengrant
Minmatar
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.27 00:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Eltyron
BRUCE did move. To Syndicate. Where BRUCE disbanded.
Yup. Last ditch attempt to halt the cascade.
But things were falling apart on the way already.
Between a well entrenched and very active Huzzah in Y4Y and the JQV napfest and BRUCE activity going down while many of the remaining members did stuff in empire (missions, FW, whatever) we never got the ball rolling again. By that time we had suffered a long series of setbacks - including 2 thefts (not bancrupting - but morale sapping). And every few days another corp left.
We hardly had any active FCs left. And the couple that tried valiantly for a while only got decent fleets a couple of times or so - almost always outmatched by Huzzah.
Diplomatic attempts got nowhere and even old allies in JQV went red eventually.
Originally by: Eltyron
It doesn't matter if PL, SoT and whoever else 'exhausted' BRUCE or not. They are dead and these threads suck.
KOS4LYFE
And you realize that you help to keep it alive, don't you? :-)
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Glengrant
Minmatar
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.27 00:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Wusti
I don't think they are trying (like so many alliances do after failing) to disparage the impact PL et al had, but to add details that were missing.
Certainly not. Of the local players it was PL that did most of the damage.
SoT added some pain here and there. But PL didn't need them to outmatch us and SoT by itself wouldn't have beaten us even at our weakened condition at the time I think - so SoT was irrelevant in that regard.
BoB came to visit for some fun big battles - but I don't remember them trying to really conquer much beyond that border outpost.
And the Goon harassment ops were already over by then.
It was PL that captured the value moons and then dismantle our POS infrastructure, finally conquering outposts - putting lots of pressure on our logistics and hurting military morale.
Originally by: Wusti
How many times have we seen the bloat followed by the crash? BRUCE aren't the only ones it happened to - indeed, we went through a similar stage, but luckily retreated from it, and thanks to some great leadership (salutes Z), manage to put it back together and pull through.
Congrats.
Is Huzzah still the dominating force in that area?
** Edit for Sthn Syndicate Newsflash as requested:
Originally by: Wusti
Syndicate report
Interesting. Changed *again*. :-)
One of these days I'll activate my Syndicate JC and have a lookaround. ;-)
For some reason many people tend to look down on Syndicate. Yet it is my favourite region and has been for years. It's interesting and comes without sov pos spam. Some decent agents and some valuable systems. Strategic nookholes and almost always several alliances, corps and assorted folks who meddle with each other. Much more dynamic than most other regions IMHO.
BRUCE was my 2nd time in lower Syndicate. First time was with 3FA (another fine and fun alliance that eventually failed). Funnily OSS and Goons were blue to us in 3FA but red while in BRUCE. Funny old world. ;-)
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