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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.22 08:02:00 - [1] So, if you think about it... November is almost done. CCP is claiming a release date of 10 March for the T3 expansion, and excluding this Saturday's patch, we're probably due for at least one balance patch between now and March. I would hope. So, say we get a balance patch in two months- that's only eight weeks. That would put it around mid to end of January. And with T3 being as big as it is, I would hope that it gets a good 6-8 weeks of testing and flogging on SISI before it's released. So that means that T3 will have to be on SISI by the end of January or the first week of February at the latest. Not a lot of time to get everything done eh? Particularly when all we've seen of T3 are some concept shots. No in game art, no models or UI for putting them together. With T3 so close, I mean it's literally around the corner time-wise, 2009 is only five weeks away (!!!), I'm wondering if we'll be seeing T3 in March and WIS in July, or if it's going to get pushed back so far, we won't see T3 until August 2009 and WIS by December 2009. All the balancing issues and bugs. -shudder- I hope it get's plenty of time on SISI. I would think that CCP would put T3 on SISI as early as the first week of January just to get as much testing in as possible before putting it live in March. I really hope it all works out, but I'm kind of pessimistic about the whole thing. Look where blasters are now. 37 pages of thread in the Game Design forum and they're just as broken as ever. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.11.22 08:07:00 - [2] We, as players, do not know for how long CCP has already been working on the next expansion. It is quite possible that there are two teams, working in parallel on different expansions at different stages of development. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Khemul Zula Amarr Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.11.22 08:07:00 - [3] CCP, testing.
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.11.22 08:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Haywoode Jablome on 22/11/2008 09:02:31 In timing, there are at least 2 ways to introduce which i'm familiar with Waterfall method, which simply says 'dump' the features into public and deal with things while they occur and the Spiral(Iterative) model. What I never liked in the iterative model, is that a lot of complaining occurs, which lead to mis-communication in the original modal, which leads to redesign, recoding on a semi-live system, in short it ruins the original ideas. Both have pros and cons... If you'd ask me, with T3 and what you have to do to get T3 operational as a player, is wormholes for the parts to build it. These wormholes are already unstable, just as software can be... so the way I see it this T3 phenomenon takes a great deal of effort and time for a player to even get the first steps towards building together. Unless ofcourse there is a flaw in the system (like getting factional standing so darn easy as in Factional Warfare)... The way I see T3 and WIS, are completely 'black' boxes that (especially WIS) don't interfere with the current systems... Unless ofcourse these 2 projects changed the 'core' code in balance... I for one totally agree with Bellum in testing... I also hope it will get plenty of time spent on SISI...
Companion Qube	Posted - 2008.11.22 09:16:00 - [5] Timing != birth control, kthx.
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2008.11.22 09:36:00 - [6] i would assume that there's alot more done than ccp has let on tbh . It's probably why QR was so devoid of big content alot of tiny things .
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.22 10:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Bellum Eternus All the balancing issues and bugs. -shudder- I hope it get's plenty of time on SISI. I would think that CCP would put T3 on SISI as early as the first week of January just to get as much testing in as possible before putting it live in March. They will do what they always do. Put it on Sisi two weeks before deployment, have it tested by about 20 people, patch it to the live system with no changes and then deny the problems exist. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.22 10:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Bellum Eternus All the balancing issues and bugs. -shudder- I hope it get's plenty of time on SISI. I would think that CCP would put T3 on SISI as early as the first week of January just to get as much testing in as possible before putting it live in March. They will do what they always do. Put it on Sisi two weeks before deployment, have it tested by about 20 people, patch it to the live system with no changes and then deny the problems exist. You forgot about the part where they fix the problems a week later.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.11.22 11:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Dantes Revenge They will do what they always do. Put it on Sisi two weeks before deployment, have it tested by about 20 people, patch it to the live system with no changes and then deny the problems exist. You forgot about the part where they fix the problems a week later. Yes. If only there was some way for lots and lots of people to test it before it went live, rather than having to complain about it afterwards… No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.22 11:02:00 - [10] Wish I could fly a mega so I could comment more in depth on it, although web changes should hurt laser ships even more, as in a mega you should be able to dictate tracking/range against a geddon. missiles have also gotten a lot of complaining, but everything I have done with them they seem fine, blew up some drakes earlier today, and a bunch of npc shooting. as for t3 balancing that does worry me a bit, as yes march is getting closer.
Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2008.11.22 11:23:00 - [11] I take it the OP was not at Fanfest? Hilmar said there that CCP was now "laser-focused" on EvE, devoting over 75% of its entire staff to the development of EvE and the big expansion. Many smaller side-projects have been temporarily shelved. I'm positive that CCP can get the expansion out on time. I'm more concerned about the Ambulation expansion. Even a Winter 2009 release date seems far-fetched.
Eleneor	Posted - 2008.11.22 11:29:00 - [12] My guess is the T3 stuff was planned for this winter's 'industrial' expansion, but didn't make it in due to time constraints. Hence they released a smaller winter patch and announced the March patch.
small chimp	Posted - 2008.11.22 11:37:00 - [13] With prenerfing you dont need balancing?
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.11.22 11:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Zaknussem I take it the OP was not at Fanfest? Hilmar said there that CCP was now "laser-focused" on EvE, devoting over 75% of its entire staff to the development of EvE and the big expansion. Many smaller side-projects have been temporarily shelved. I'm positive that CCP can get the expansion out on time. I'm more concerned about the Ambulation expansion. Even a Winter 2009 release date seems far-fetched. have you like ever compared PR to the real world ? have you like ever been thru athe whole eve expansion procces ? ccp dev blog machine starts up again expansion is anounced with pomp and circumstance expansion is tested vigorously by the players who report lots of issues and suggesting lots of solutions some weeks later the expansion rolls out incomplete as usual with 2-3 minor tweaks compared to the initial sisi release a week after that the worst bugs that creep up are fixed ccp dev blog machine comes to a sudden halt and dev blogs trickle in very very slowly
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.22 12:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Zaknussem I take it the OP was not at Fanfest? Hilmar said there that CCP was now "laser-focused" on EvE, devoting over 75% of its entire staff to the development of EvE and the big expansion. Many smaller side-projects have been temporarily shelved. I'm positive that CCP can get the expansion out on time. I'm more concerned about the Ambulation expansion. Even a Winter 2009 release date seems far-fetched. That's good to hear. Bluntly, CCP dropped the ball on a number of issues this year. Amateurish in the extreme, and that's the kindest way I can put it. Here's hoping that they do pick it up.
Doonoo Boonoo Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.22 12:19:00 - [16] So you are worried about the new Expansion before it's deployed? And you are worried that there might be another balance patch? I think you would be better off waiting until all the facts are in before speculating how bad it will be just because you are unhappy with the Blaster nerf.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2008.11.22 12:26:00 - [17] Originally by: SniperWo1f i would assume that there's alot more done than ccp has let on tbh . It's probably why QR was so devoid of big content alot of tiny things This. Literally, for all we know it could be a few weeks from SiSi. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2008.11.22 16:14:00 - [18] Originally by: IR Scoutar have you like ever compared PR to the real world ? have you like ever been thru athe whole eve expansion procces ? -snip- Yes, I have been through the whole expansion process, both in EvE and other similar products. Yes, I am aware of the difference between PR-speak and the real world, and I am very aware of the hype-campaigns that are run in the gaming industry, CCP included. I am also aware of the fact that by announcing the deadline to the public, CCP may have just shot themselves in the foot and may deliver a product that is inferior to what they promised. But regardless of the state of the product, it will be delivered on time. Or Atari will smack some heads around at CCP. CCP would rather have us try to flail wildly at their heads than a gaming industry behemoth like Atari. But until that deadline arrives, I suggest you learn to use all of the keys on your keyboard that are located directly to the right of "M". Proper usage of those keys are a vital element in smacking the heads at CCP when they next screw up.
KhaniKirai	Posted - 2008.11.22 16:27:00 - [19] Last expansion patch was more barely worth to call expansion at all. I lost more then i gained i think :D
Hevymetal Caldari POT Corp	Posted - 2008.11.22 16:53:00 - [20] Originally by: Companion Qube Timing != birth control, kthx. Actually Rythm is one of the oldest forms of birth control dating back hundreds of years. Rythm is based off of timing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_Method that being said Timing = birth control maybe not the best method, but nevertheless a viable one. BANG!! BANG!! BANG!! STOP OR I'LL SHOOT!!!
Darth Insidius	Posted - 2008.11.22 17:00:00 - [21] well STO might have been released by then so meh, who cares.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.22 17:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Darth Insidius well STO might have been released by then so meh, who cares. Wasn't that cancelled or something?
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.22 17:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Darth Insidius well STO might have been released by then so meh, who cares. Wasn't that cancelled or something? And why would you think that game will be anything other than a huge pile of crap?
Troye Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.11.22 17:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Darth Insidius well STO might have been released by then so meh, who cares. Yes who gives one about EVE when "WoW in Space" is just around the corner. (Thats not my own judgment thats what a popular gaming magazine termed it and meant it a complimentary way.) _______________________________________
Darth Insidius	Posted - 2008.11.22 17:58:00 - [25] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Darth Insidius well STO might have been released by then so meh, who cares. Wasn't that cancelled or something? And why would you think that game will be anything other than a huge pile of crap? i dont know. whose to say the infalliable CCP dont drop the ball on the march expansion and Eve ends up a huge pile of crap. its not like thats never happened before in a MMO.....
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.22 18:06:00 - [26] In turning over so much customisability to the players, the only result can be epic lulz. Look what people did just with a few MWDs and nanos. That is just combination of modules with ships. Being able to design the ships too, even in a limited way? Epic lulz... - DesuSigs
Darth Insidius	Posted - 2008.11.22 18:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Crumplecorn In turning over so much customisability to the players, the only result can be epic lulz. Look what people did just with a few MWDs and nanos. That is just combination of modules with ships. Being able to design the ships too, even in a limited way? Epic lulz... you say it like its a bad thing.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.11.22 18:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Darth Insidius Originally by: Crumplecorn In turning over so much customisability to the players, the only result can be epic lulz. Look what people did just with a few MWDs and nanos. That is just combination of modules with ships. Being able to design the ships too, even in a limited way? Epic lulz... you say it like its a bad thing. Epic lulz are never a bad thing. New Eden Research, where your research gets done!
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.22 18:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Khemul Zula CCP, testing. actually ccp does indeed test, the thing they cannot do is hire 1000 people to test large scale things. you fail in your sarcasm Please, jump into traffic
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.22 18:38:00 - [30] Another thing which occurred to me is, when passing intel, how the hell does one list these ships? - DesuSigs
Karille Gallente Lordless	Posted - 2008.11.22 18:51:00 - [31] Originally by: Crumplecorn Another thing which occurred to me is, when passing intel, how the hell does one list these ships? I don't know, but the sheer unpredictability sounds like fun.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Karille Originally by: Crumplecorn Another thing which occurred to me is, when passing intel, how the hell does one list these ships? I don't know, but the sheer unpredictability sounds like fun. Maybe we'll be able to give them labels, based either on visuals or whatever is shown in place of the ship's type in the UI. 'FOTM 1', 'FOTM 2', and so on. - DesuSigs
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:12:00 - [33] Originally by: IR Scoutar Originally by: Zaknussem I take it the OP was not at Fanfest? Hilmar said there that CCP was now "laser-focused" on EvE, devoting over 75% of its entire staff to the development of EvE and the big expansion. Many smaller side-projects have been temporarily shelved. I'm positive that CCP can get the expansion out on time. I'm more concerned about the Ambulation expansion. Even a Winter 2009 release date seems far-fetched. have you like ever compared PR to the real world ? have you like ever been thru athe whole eve expansion procces ? ccp dev blog machine starts up again expansion is anounced with pomp and circumstance expansion is tested vigorously by the players who report lots of issues and suggesting lots of solutions some weeks later the expansion rolls out incomplete as usual with 2-3 minor tweaks compared to the initial sisi release a week after that the worst bugs that creep up are fixed ccp dev blog machine comes to a sudden halt and dev blogs trickle in very very slowly This. Quite frankly, I don't have much faith in CCP's ability to deliver. Every single time that something has been put on SISI and the player base told 'oh, we're just fiddling around with it, it won't go live (WTZ)', it's made it to TQ pretty much unchanged. Blasters were crippled last patch, agility of ships is all messed up, another example of a long list of poorly thought out changes. I know a thing or two about the art pipelines for game companies, the asset development requirements and the game design work flow for getting things into the game and published on the live server (TQ), and unless they already have all their assets completed and are simply doing the fine tuning right now on their internal servers (which they very well may be doing), I don't see them hitting a 10 March deadline. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:15:00 - [34] It is like with every thread you get more full of yourself. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Every single time that something has been put on SISI and the player base told 'oh, we're just fiddling around with it, it won't go live (WTZ)', it's made it to TQ pretty much unchanged. well actually we did manage to get them to not change the deimos. Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Karanth Gallente Independent Fleet Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:34:00 - [36] Edited by: Karanth on 22/11/2008 19:34:41 Edited by: Karanth on 22/11/2008 19:34:13 Originally by: Darth Insidius Originally by: Karille i dont know. whose to say the infalliable CCP dont drop the ball on the march expansion and Eve ends up a huge pile of crap. its not like thats never happened before in a MMO..... Next person to say or think NGE gets podded and sent to bed without dinner. --- Wheel of Whineage
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Karanth Next person to say or think NGE gets podded and sent to bed without dinner. zankoku na tenshi no you ni, shounen yo shinwa ni nare! - DesuSigs
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:36:00 - [38] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Bellum Eternus Every single time that something has been put on SISI and the player base told 'oh, we're just fiddling around with it, it won't go live (WTZ)', it's made it to TQ pretty much unchanged. well actually we did manage to get them to not change the deimos. That's true. But somehow I can't get excited about them not ruining a ship that was/has been/still is crap. Also, is it bad that I consider anyone in Goonswarm to be a nonperson? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.22 19:50:00 - [39] Originally by: Bellum Eternus That's true. But somehow I can't get excited about them not ruining a ship that was/has been/still is crap. good point actually Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2008.11.22 20:13:00 - [40] Originally by: An Anarchyyt It is like with every thread you get more full of yourself. Oh, I wonder who else is like that, but instead of posting discussion worthy material they make bad jokes and jibes in badly disguised attempts to gain attention on an internet spaceships forum. (yes, I know you'll be happy that you got this much attention out of someone. oh well.)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.22 20:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Gnomes Rock Originally by: An Anarchyyt It is like with every thread you get more full of yourself. Oh, I wonder who else is like that, but instead of posting discussion worthy material they make bad jokes and jibes in badly disguised attempts to gain attention on an internet spaceships forum. (yes, I know you'll be happy that you got this much attention out of someone. oh well.) You are cool. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2008.11.22 20:33:00 - [42] Originally by: An Anarchyyt You are cool. I know.
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.11.22 21:35:00 - [43] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Gnomes Rock Originally by: An Anarchyyt It is like with every thread you get more full of yourself. Oh, I wonder who else is like that, but instead of posting discussion worthy material they make bad jokes and jibes in badly disguised attempts to gain attention on an internet spaceships forum. (yes, I know you'll be happy that you got this much attention out of someone. oh well.) This ^^ Can we can get back on topic please?
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2008.11.22 21:49:00 - [44] Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 22/11/2008 21:50:04 Originally by: Gonada Originally by: Khemul Zula CCP, testing. actually ccp does indeed test, the thing they cannot do is hire 1000 people to test large scale things. you fail in your sarcasm Meh, CCP could do a great many things to make testing new stuff more user-friendly, and to streamline the flow and organization of feedback from the testing... thus generating more participation and streamlining their ability to use the data generated from the testing. This is not to say that CCP going about the testing all wrong... It's also not necessarily wrong to wipe your arse with sandpaper... CCP's testing and the sandpaper are both very effective methods in the end , yet both could stand a bit of tweaking methinks. Ris Dnalor -- Quote: "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." -- FREDERICK DOUGLASS
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.22 21:52:00 - [45] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Gnomes Rock Originally by: An Anarchyyt It is like with every thread you get more full of yourself. Oh, I wonder who else is like that, but instead of posting discussion worthy material they make bad jokes and jibes in badly disguised attempts to gain attention on an internet spaceships forum. (yes, I know you'll be happy that you got this much attention out of someone. oh well.) You are cool. You sure proved him wrong there.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.22 21:52:00 - [46] So yes, back on topic.... IMO in order for CCP to be able to deliver what they're talking about, they will have to have the entire game design and all their art assets generated already (maybe they've been doing that all summer?). After thinking about it for a bit, this just about has to be the case, otherwise why would they announce it so far in advance? I think maybe since QR was kind of light in the way of new content, they had to drop a big PR bomb during fanfest to keep the diehards salivating. Hopefully we'll hear some more intel about it before the end of the year. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.11.23 00:22:00 - [47] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Bellum Eternus Every single time that something has been put on SISI and the player base told 'oh, we're just fiddling around with it, it won't go live (WTZ)', it's made it to TQ pretty much unchanged. well actually we did manage to get them to not change the deimos. I don't know.. with the speed changes and changes to MWD, maybe they should go through with it now.
Cilvius Sanctus Gallente The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.11.23 02:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Karille Originally by: Crumplecorn Another thing which occurred to me is, when passing intel, how the hell does one list these ships? I don't know, but the sheer unpredictability sounds like fun. Maybe we'll be able to give them labels, based either on visuals or whatever is shown in place of the ship's type in the UI. 'FOTM 1', 'FOTM 2', and so on. The whole "Flavor of the Month" thing is what I am worried about the most with T3. I remember when I used to play Guild Wars, there would always be setups for different classes that was the current FOTM, until it was nerfed. Then something else would be the new FOTM, until it was nerfed. It just continued on endlessly until I got tired of the game and stopped playing. I'm really hoping that T3 in EVE will have many viable options and not just a few really overpowered ones...until they get nerfed.
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.11.23 02:28:00 - [49] Thats how you deploy software unfortunately. You have to deliver, you can't sit on it until its finished or somebody gets fired. That somebody isn't going to want to get fired, so that somebody will push it out the door when its supposed to and then fix any remaining bugs later.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.11.23 03:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Karanth Next person to say or think NGE gets podded and sent to bed without dinner. zankoku na tenshi no you ni, shounen yo shinwa ni nare! goddamn it crumplecorn __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?

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