Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 39 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 23:33:00 -
[151] - Quote
The by far most important Reason why we need T2 BPO`s so badly is, that all the "not so successfull" Industrialists have someone to blame for their failing. Even if its obvious that a blueprint that makes a couple bil per year when 24/7 manufacturing just cannot be too important for the game.
Quote:"I don't see removal ever happening. But one possible approach would be to say "all T2 BPO owners will have their BPOs exchanged for a stack of invented T2 BPCs equating to N years of production"."
lol
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 10:39:00 -
[152] - Quote
Problem is any nerf/removal to the massively OP BPO's and owners will cry. Hey but they ''hardly effect the market'' anyway right so don't cry so bad. |
Haulie Berry
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:04:00 -
[153] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Hey but they ''hardly effect the market''
Hey, look! You said something correct for a change!
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:15:00 -
[154] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Hey but they ''hardly effect the market'' Hey, look! You said something correct for a change!
Naw I was quoting crap, it flies from T2BPO supporters non stop. |
Haulie Berry
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 14:20:00 -
[155] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Naw I was quoting crap, it flies from T2BPO supporters non stop.
You do understand that the math fully supports the position that they have a negligible impact on the market, right?
I know you seem to think that the make-it-up-as-you-go strategy is valid, but it is pretty readily crushed by basic, irrefutable arithmetic.
Your problem seems to be a gross, willful ignorance about virtually every aspect of the Eve market and manufacturing. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:22:00 -
[156] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Hey but they ''hardly effect the market'' Hey, look! You said something correct for a change! Naw I was quoting crap, it flies from T2BPO supporters non stop.
Please dont even try to understand why they say that, just make them stop saying such things!
You should realy take a look at this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98241&find=unread
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:36:00 -
[157] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Naw I was quoting crap, it flies from T2BPO supporters non stop.
You do understand that the math fully supports the position that they have a negligible impact on the market, right? I know you seem to think that the make-it-up-as-you-go strategy is valid, but it is pretty readily crushed by basic, irrefutable arithmetic. Your problem seems to be a gross, willful ignorance about virtually every aspect of the Eve market and manufacturing.
When 78% of a T2 item is producded by BPOsomething is broken. That means CCP gave 78% of that market to a few select players. While the rest of eve has to work like mad at 22%. This is broken it always has been.
Remove T2BPO or forever be reminded that no matter how hard you try at the end of the day CCP hand outs decide who is at the top particularly in T2BPO manufacture.
|
Grouchy Smurf
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 16:57:00 -
[158] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: When 78% of a T2 item is producded by BPOsomething is broken. That means CCP gave 78% of that market to a few select players. While the rest of eve has to work like mad at 22%. This is broken it always has been.
The only Tech 2 items that are produced by "78%" from BPOs are those that trade in low volumes, and are mostly unprofitable to invent due to the price of materials (the pre-mentioned -4/-4 problem). An example of this item would be the Sleipnir. Less than 10 are sold daily in Jita, and Eveeye gives between 12 and 25 million ISK profit per unit. There is simply to way for inventions to catch up with that.
On the other hand, according to CCP tweets things like Tech 2 weapon modules are created mainly from inventions (between 65 to 80% if I recall correctly).
If you don't have enough profit on an item, move to another one. This is a flexibility that BPO holders don't have. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:08:00 -
[159] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
When 78% of a T2 item is producded by BPOsomething is broken. That means CCP gave 78% of that market to a few select players. While the rest of eve has to work like mad at 22%. This is broken it always has been.
Remove T2BPO or forever be reminded that no matter how hard you try at the end of the day CCP hand outs decide who is at the top particularly in T2BPO manufacture.
When you say 78% of an ITEM you are not talking of the average T2 itme your talking of a certain mostlikely not very used item that you picked on twitter.
For example, you probaly picked something stupid like the claymore, I would`nt be suprised if nearly 100% of em are build by BPO`s because its just not profiatble to build them as there maybe 5 of em gettign sold per day. Nobody would invent it, but a T2 BPO owner has either the choice of just dont use the BPO at all or build the ship for a minimal profit.
You can check any of the high demanded Items and you will see those are acutally getting invented a lot because the number of BPO-¦s are too limited that they could cover the entire demand.
Quote:78% of that market to a few select players
everyone can buy these prints, their Owners mostly bought em for a lot of money, they didnt got elected by CCP to have an advantage.
the most easy Way to see that T2 BPO are not OP at all, is to check how much ISK they actually generate, and that tiny bit of isk just cannot affect the whole game that much. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:41:00 -
[160] - Quote
The last T2 BPO was distributed over 5 years ago. Arguing that the lottery was unfair years ago will fall on deaf ears. If you want to get rid of them, you must argue about their effect on the economy.
Three rules: 1. Industrialists pass all their manufacturing costs on to the consumers. 2. The market is PVP. Manufacturers compete with each other to be the lowest priced seller on the market while maximizing their profits. 3. Producing from a T2 BPO is cheaper than inventing. First there is the cost of invention. That can be calculated from the cost of datacores, decryptors, and the average success rate. Additionally, the ME of invented BPCs is worse than BPOs. This increases the quantity of some of the components on the bill of materials. It does not increase the quantity of all, because ME does not effect any "extra" materials in the BOM. The "extra" materials tend to be the more expensive parts.
Putting those three together, you see that since the BPO owners can bring their goods to the market at a cheaper price than inventors. This gives them more room to lower their prices to get their goods sold.
Consider the other half of the market: the consumers.
4. Demand for specific items is inelastic. Changing the price of a Capacitor Recharger 2 by 200k or 500k will not make a consumer choose a different item instead. 5. There are a limited quantity of each T2 BPO in existance. Each BPO can only make a limited number of that specific item. Inventors can make a nearly unlimited quantity of any item they want.
This means that T2 items can be divided into two categories: those items with small demand which can be filled by T2 BPOs, and those items with large demand which need inventors in the market.
For small demand items, the price on the market will be (BPO Manufacturing Cost + profit). Different BPO owners 0.01 isk each other on the market until profit becomes a very small number and one of the BPO owners says, "Screw it, I'm not going to bother manufacturing any more for a while."
For large demand items, the price on the market will be (Invention Manufacturing Cost + profit). Different inventors 0.01 isk each other until profit becomes a very small number and the inventors find different items to build. Note, the BPO owners follow the cost on the market as well because they want to maximize their profit.
Now imagine BPOs disappeared. The demand for the first category of T2 items will be filled by inventors. Prices of these items rise to (Invention Manufacturing Cost + profit). Inventors will keep 0.01 isking each other until profit is a very small number. The profits for the second category of T2 items will remain unchanged.
Therefore, the existance of T2 BPOs has no net effect on the PROFITABILITY of invention. However, prices of a select number of times will rise due to the inefficiency of the invention process. Who benefits from the increased costs? Moon mining alliances. Oh, those are the people the OP thinks get preferential treatment from CCP!
T2 BPOs are the end game of manufacturing. For players who do not want to fly titans and supercarriers, they can spend their isk to collect T2 BPOs. I like the fact that collecting rare, no-longer-available items is an option in the sandbox.
Disclosure: I started the game after the lottery ended, and have never owned a T2 BPO. However, I do make quite a bit of isk each week by inventing.
|
|
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 17:52:00 -
[161] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:When 78% of a T2 item is producded by BPOsomething is broken. That means CCP gave 78% of that market to a few select players. While the rest of eve has to work like mad at 22%. This is broken it always has been. You do not understand the implications of this statistic.
If 78% of a T2 item are produced by BPO owners, that means it is a low demand and unprofitable item. If it were a profitable item, then inventors like me would be jumping in to fill the demand.
When I see that stat, I wonder who the 22% were? Are they roleplayers who simply want to be able to say they built their own ships and don't care that it cost them more? Or are they dumb inventors who decided to invent and manufacture this item before running the numbers and determining if it was profitable or not? |
Haulie Berry
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 18:59:00 -
[162] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
When 78% of a T2 item is producded by BPOsomething is broken. That means CCP gave 78% of that market to a few select players. While the rest of eve has to work like mad at 22%. This is broken it always has been.
Remove T2BPO or forever be reminded that no matter how hard you try at the end of the day CCP hand outs decide who is at the top particularly in T2BPO manufacture.
If BPOs were removed tomorrow, do you think you would be able to dive right into a new, highly lucrative 50mm Reinforced Steel Plates II market? |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:
When I see that stat, I wonder who the 22% were? Are they roleplayers who simply want to be able to say they built their own ships and don't care that it cost them more? Or are they dumb inventors who decided to invent and manufacture this item before running the numbers and determining if it was profitable or not?
I dont know wich item it is, but if its a commandship, one possible reason is that its prolly not getting build to make profit. eventually on a location where the ship is not available on market and the said person doesnt have the option to just got to high sec and grab of such items/ships. I bet most of these 22% are not getting traded in Jita.
But after reading Brewlar's arguments, I can easily imagine that some ppl are actually dumb enough to build them for profit,without running the numbers (correctly) |
Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:14:00 -
[164] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:You do not understand the implications of this statistic.
Oh, he understands it. It's been explained to him over and over again. He just doesn't like what that explanation means, so he ignores it. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 19:48:00 -
[165] - Quote
Gatan Hahran wrote:my neighbour got an iphone4. i cant afford one so they need to take it away from him.
My neighbor got an Iphone 12, I cant get it in this fair market so I should call Apple and have them take the stolen property back.
It would be BAD PRESS for apple if word got out that every one else is forced to buy lower end stuff while the rich .001% can get what wont come out for the next 12 years. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 20:24:00 -
[166] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:Gatan Hahran wrote:my neighbour got an iphone4. i cant afford one so they need to take it away from him.
My neighbor got an Iphone 12, I cant get it in this fair market so I should call Apple and have them take the stolen property back. It would be BAD PRESS for apple if word got out that every one else is forced to buy lower end stuff while the rich .001% can get what wont come out for the next 12 years.
your neightbor has a better job than you so he can afford it but you cant. remove jobs? |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:Kara Books wrote:Gatan Hahran wrote:my neighbour got an iphone4. i cant afford one so they need to take it away from him.
My neighbor got an Iphone 12, I cant get it in this fair market so I should call Apple and have them take the stolen property back. It would be BAD PRESS for apple if word got out that every one else is forced to buy lower end stuff while the rich .001% can get what wont come out for the next 12 years. your neightbor has a better job than you so he can afford it but you cant. remove jobs?
ru serous? because im not sure.
(edited) I removed a not so funny pun about jobs |
Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 21:34:00 -
[168] - Quote
So you're saying if Apple could somehow produce a phone today that sold for $50,000 and did what a phone from a decade in the future could do for $500, we should protest its sale in the courts? Or at the very least, be unhappy with Apple for their pricing?
That's patently ridiculous. It's the opposite of what happens in reality. Expensive, ultra rare halo products increase brand awareness. Even when they're given away for free to wealthy playboys who could afford them anyways.
Talk sense, damnit. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 03:36:00 -
[169] - Quote
Salo Aldeland wrote:So you're saying if Apple could somehow produce a phone today that sold for $50,000 and did what a phone from a decade in the future could do for $500, we should protest its sale in the courts? Or at the very least, be unhappy with Apple for their pricing?
That's patently ridiculous. It's the opposite of what happens in reality. Expensive, ultra rare halo products increase brand awareness. Even when they're given away for free to wealthy playboys who could afford them anyways.
Talk sense, damnit.
what exactly does real life money have to do with T2 BPO's? your argument is invalid.
the fact of the matter is, there was a short term raffle, where people where hand chosen, to receive something and the rest of the customers where not even allowed to complain about, well im complaining about exactly that.
(edit part) the problem can be rectified, the game will become more attractive to play and every one will be happy, including the T2 BPO holders. |
Salo Aldeland
Luma Operations
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 14:00:00 -
[170] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:what exactly does real life money have to do with T2 BPO's? your argument is invalid.
the fact of the matter is, there was a short term raffle, where people where hand chosen, to receive something and the rest of the customers where not even allowed to complain about, well im complaining about exactly that.
(edit part) the problem can be rectified, the game will become more attractive to play and every one will be happy, including the T2 BPO holders.
I have no idea. It makes as much sense as comparing them to imaginary super phones, I guess. |
|
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:46:00 -
[171] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:
what exactly does real life money have to do with T2 BPO's? your argument is invalid.
it was you who brought up the IphoneG12 example, dont ask us.
Kara Books wrote: the fact of the matter is, there was a short term raffle, where people where hand chosen, to receive something and the rest of the customers where not even allowed to complain about, well im complaining about exactly that..
they won the lottery just as other ppl get lucky with a revenant BPC drop aswell.It was RANDOM who would get it.
YOU are just unhappy with your income and have to blame somebody else for that or cant bear that other player are somewhat more successfull than you. How can somebody have such a coll corp name and cry that much :S...deal with it
|
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
119
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:51:00 -
[172] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:Kara Books wrote:
what exactly does real life money have to do with T2 BPO's? your argument is invalid.
it was you who brought up the IphoneG12 example, dont ask us. Kara Books wrote: the fact of the matter is, there was a short term raffle, where people where hand chosen, to receive something and the rest of the customers where not even allowed to complain about, well im complaining about exactly that..
they won the lottery just as other ppl get lucky with a revenant BPC drop aswell.It was RANDOM who would get it. YOU are just unhappy with your income and have to blame somebody else for that or cant bear that other player are somewhat more successfull than you. How can somebody have such a coll corp name and cry that much :S.. .deal with it
I dont count somebody's money, but I will stand up for myself and 99% of the fellow players, lets not become childish.
Giving T2 BPO holders the current Market value in return for the removal of T2 BPO's means several things. 1. Im 100% sure the T2 BPO holders will not complain, because after all they lose nothing.
2. They will know fellow T2 BPO holders will also be giving up the same thing, so they will not be placed into a position where they would have an unfair disadvantage.
What is the point of arguing when I can understand that you have given lots of planning and thought to the T2 BPO strategy you can or are using, you do not want to think of anything other then holding onto some kind of an easy button.
every one just wants to take it away from you, in fact its NOT you or any other PERSON who owns tech 2 blueprint originals, its T2 BPO's that need to be replaced with New, Market friendly, creative and fun for every one solutions. |
Katerwaul
The Scope Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:57:00 -
[173] - Quote
If you want to moan about how the T2 BPOs were handled & the terrible wrongs of them it should be taken to the Crime & Punishment forum. But the Crime & Punishment forum would require that the complaints have relevance and it's well past the point of relevance and into the territory of "feeling sorry for yourself". How dare life not be fair?
If you want to complain about how T2 BPOs shouldn't be in the game it should be taken to the Suggestions & Ideas forum. But the Suggestions & Idea forum doesn't bother feeling sorry for itself and it's residents would descend upon such a thread like so many angry magpies upon an ill-tempered cat. You can hiss and spit all you'd like, but they'll still drive you off.
I'm horribly disappointed that so much good sarcasm was so deeply buried in a forum post that should already be dead.
All "T2 BPO" posts are troll feed as far as I'm concerned. The most important thing these posts do is continue to provide a place for an old wound to fester & putrefy. They don't belong in the Science & Industry forum. Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 17:06:00 -
[174] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:
every one just wants to take it away from you, in fact its NOT you or any other PERSON who owns tech 2 blueprint originals, its T2 BPO's that need to be replaced with New, Market friendly, creative and fun for every one solutions.
Tbh, I dont see that many complaining, just those who do are over the top loud. Compared to the ~1200 different T2 BPO owners the majority seems to be quite happy as it is.
Your idea, of taking away T2 BPO-¦s for their current value isnt that bad as such (at least T2 owners couldnt complain) but its fairly impossible for CCP to do that. It would be a full time job for them to calculate for every T2 BPO in the game a fair value, because its not that easy for Items that sometimes didnt got traded fro years. If they would have to deal with that, im afraid they wouldnt have time to deal with much more importnat stuff. |
Reverend Cletis
Synister Mynisters
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 17:33:00 -
[175] - Quote
Would someone be kind enough to wake me up when these inane T2bpo whine threads stop?
Much appreciated. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
65
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 18:46:00 -
[176] - Quote
Reverend Cletis wrote:Would someone be kind enough to wake me up when these inane T2bpo whine threads stop?
Much appreciated.
I will send you a PM when they are removed or when EVE online finnaly goes to the MMO graveyard. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
218
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 11:35:00 -
[177] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Reverend Cletis wrote:Would someone be kind enough to wake me up when these inane T2bpo whine threads stop?
Much appreciated. I will send you a PM when they are removed or when EVE online finnaly goes to the MMO graveyard.
lol your so funny
eve is gonna die because of t2 bpos....lmfao
earn some isk through invention and go buy one if you are so hooked on the idea there that special CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 12:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Reverend Cletis wrote:Would someone be kind enough to wake me up when these inane T2bpo whine threads stop?
Much appreciated. I will send you a PM when they are removed or when EVE online finnaly goes to the MMO graveyard. lol your so funny eve is gonna die because of t2 bpos....lmfao earn some isk through invention and go buy one if you are so hooked on the idea there that special
Eh I never suggested eve will die because of T2BPO but people will not stop complaining about them untill they are either removed or EVE stops. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
218
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 12:31:00 -
[179] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Reverend Cletis wrote:Would someone be kind enough to wake me up when these inane T2bpo whine threads stop?
Much appreciated. I will send you a PM when they are removed or when EVE online finnaly goes to the MMO graveyard. lol your so funny eve is gonna die because of t2 bpos....lmfao earn some isk through invention and go buy one if you are so hooked on the idea there that special Eh I never suggested eve will die because of T2BPO but people will not stop complaining about them untill they are either removed or EVE stops.
its seams that only you are moaning about them. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
119
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 14:33:00 -
[180] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Reverend Cletis wrote:Would someone be kind enough to wake me up when these inane T2bpo whine threads stop?
Much appreciated. I will send you a PM when they are removed or when EVE online finnaly goes to the MMO graveyard. lol your so funny eve is gonna die because of t2 bpos....lmfao earn some isk through invention and go buy one if you are so hooked on the idea there that special Eh I never suggested eve will die because of T2BPO but people will not stop complaining about them untill they are either removed or EVE stops. its seams that only you are moaning about them.
Its pretty obvious there are 20 or so people offering constructive input while 5 or so (alts?) people are desperately trying to hold onto their unfair disadvantage by trolling a thread with comments like "Moaning" this isnt a forum about ****, and the childish insults only further point out to disrespectful and irresponsible hands that hold onto Tech 2 Blueprint originals. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 39 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |