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Kaptain Failmail	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:37:00 - [1] So I have bit the bullet and started training gunnery, im going to use railguns since im Caldari. I have a few questions, I know I have to keep within optimal range to get optimal damage. Do I have to slow down to use my guns, or can I go full speed, stay within my optimal range and hit for max damage, or do I have to slow down to half speed. I can fly frigs to bs, I have asked others and they have told me the only time you really need to slow down is when using large railguns. What about small and medium railguns, can i orbit at 700m/s and hit them. A link to a guide for dummies or some good insight would be appreciated. Thanks
NoNah	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:39:00 - [2] Have you read and understood the tracking guide on this very website? Parrots, commence! Postcount: 77882
Kaptain Failmail	Posted - 2008.11.28 07:40:00 - [3] Yea I read it, I dont have a clue what it means, hence my characters name. I know I have to keep withen optimal, thats about it. I just want to know if i need to slow down to use guns or not.
tarin adur Gallente Karebear Killing Club	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Kaptain Failmail Yea I read it, I dont have a clue what it means, hence my characters name. I know I have to keep withen optimal, thats about it. I just want to know if i need to slow down to use guns or not. Might want to read it acouple more times....it goes over this very thoroughly.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Kaptain Failmail Yea I read it, I dont have a clue what it means, hence my characters name. I know I have to keep withen optimal, thats about it. I just want to know if i need to slow down to use guns or not. Yes. If you slow down your orbit, your guns will hit better. So will theres though, so take your pick. -- 249km locking?
Wil Smithx Minmatar Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:29:00 - [6] TBH you're going to need a somewhat basic understanding of maths to understand it. Firstly you need to ask yourself if you know what a radian is and then if you can understand the concept of radians per second. If the answer is yes you need to change your overview settings, if the answer is no you should consider quitting eve tbh because the last thing eve needs is another missile spamming noob who doesn't know how turrets work.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:33:00 - [7] it mostly depends on your speed, your flight vector, target size, target velocity, and target flight vector play with the tracking guide, go do it!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Wil Smithx TBH you're going to need a somewhat basic understanding of maths to understand it. Firstly you need to ask yourself if you know what a radian is and then if you can understand the concept of radians per second. If the answer is yes you need to change your overview settings, if the answer is no you should consider quitting eve tbh because the last thing eve needs is another missile spamming noob who doesn't know how turrets work. I don't know. Those who do know how eve works can make quite a lot of money off those that don't. -- 249km locking?
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.11.28 08:43:00 - [9] As well as optimal/falloff range, you need to keep an eye on traversal. If you are moving one direction and the target is moving the complete opposite, both at full speed and at close range, chances of you hitting at all are slim unless you have very very good tracking. ----YOU----> <---THEM--- = bad. <--YOU--> <----THEM =good. <--YOU--> THEM----> =good. To minimise traversal, attempt to either make the enemy approach you or move away from you in a straight line. Don't try hitting something that's very small with a large turret, you can get away with hitting cruisers with battleship railguns if they are not too close, but forget about hitting frigates unless they are in optimal and have next to no traversal (i.e. approaching you or moving away from you). You can see traversal stats by adding it to your overview columns. To see what tracking your guns have, right click them, the tracking will be listed as a rad/sec number. The higher this number, the better, as it denotes how fast your guns can turn to track the target. A 1.0rad/sec (never ever seen something with this) means your guns can track 360degrees in a second, 0.5rad/sec, 180 degrees, etc. On a battleship, your tracking on rails will likey be something like 0.02 or something similar, meaning that your guns track about 8 degrees a second, anything moving faster than that, and you can pretty much forget about getting a decent hit on them. The tracking guide is very good and I seriously suggest re-reading it once or twice. (and if I've been completely wrong this whole time, can someone please correct me? )
Wil Smithx Minmatar Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Mikael Mechka A 1.0rad/sec (never ever seen something with this) means your guns can track 360degrees in a second. Dear god are you thick?! There are Pi radians in a circle not 1. Originally by: Mikael Mechka (and if I've been completely wrong this whole time, can someone please correct me? ) You're welcome.
NoNah	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:20:00 - [11] Edited by: NoNah on 28/11/2008 09:20:12 Originally by: Wil Smithx Originally by: Mikael Mechka A 1.0rad/sec (never ever seen something with this) means your guns can track 360degrees in a second. Dear god are you thick?! There are Pi radians in a circle not 1. Oh really? Quote: Originally by: Mikael Mechka (and if I've been completely wrong this whole time, can someone please correct me? ) You're welcome. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 333180
Lacolo Basema Caldari Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Wil Smithx Originally by: Mikael Mechka A 1.0rad/sec (never ever seen something with this) means your guns can track 360degrees in a second. Dear god are you thick?! There are Pi radians in a circle not 1. Haha
Sigras	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:33:00 - [13] lol . . . i believe its 2 Pi radians =360 degrees
Wil Smithx Minmatar Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:35:00 - [14] Sigh I knew posting drunk would end in failure
NoNah	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Wil Smithx Sigh I knew posting drunk would end in failure Military experts find it likely for those who do mistakes of this magnitude to be trolled for some time ahead, with the very same kind of comments. They called it meme-therapy. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 282681
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:41:00 - [16] Since no one has yet offered direct help other than directing the OP to the incredibly handy and thorough tracking guide, I'll at least give it a shot. Shooting things with guns is quite simply completely different than shoothing things with missiles and the differences often make guns seem like an unattractive and inferior option to most new players who just rolled caldari and noticed the humble Kestral is vastly superior for most anything than the supposedly more advanced Merlin. In reality, guns are often a superior choice of weapon platform for players who understand how they work. There are only a few things a player needs to understand at a basic level to get a grasp on how guns work. The first is the idea of optimal range. While it seems logical to assume that the gun works best at that very specific range (and this is more or less true) all that number indicates is the maximum range the gun can fire without suffering from accuracy loss due to range alone. The second is the idea of falloff. When a weapon is firing in falloff there is a steadily increasing penalty to accuracy thanks to range, and the exact specifics can be calculated for a given weapon using the tracking guide. Then you have the concept of tracking. Tracking more or less is a statistic that determines how fast a turret can rotate to track a target, and the number is measured in radians. A radian is quite simply a unit of measure that direclty relates to the radius of a circle. There are approximately 6.3 radians around the circumfrence of a circle (if you want to be exact it's 2 pi radians). The confusion here often comes from a lack of understanding as to what a radian actually represents. One might recall from high school math (or middle school, I forget where you'd pick this up for the first time) that the radius of a circle can be calculated by multiplying the radius of the circle by two and then multiplying the result by pi. All of this is more or less irrelevent. What's important is that you realize that the velocity in meters per second that a target travels will result in a different angular velocity measured in radians per second based on the range. A ship flying at 1000 m/s in a perfect circle orbit of 1km is traveling at 1 radian per second. If that same ship is flying at 10km it's angular velocity is suddenly .1 radian per second. The last feature a player must understand is the inherit accuracy of the gun system itself. A frigate class gun has a grouping that allows it to fire on frigates with incredible accuracy, whereas a cruiser will have a weapon that can easily hit other cruisers but will have difficulty hitting frigates. All of these factors can be influenced by the player. Tracking issues can be overcome by using a stasis webifier to slow the target down, or by using your own ship's engines to reduce the relative velocity difference between the two ships or to increase the range to once again reduce the angular velocity. Target painters can make a ship "larger" and thus easier to hit and so forth. The tracking forumla takes all of these variables into account. As such, you'll find that a ship can move very fast using a MWD but it's dramatically increased signature radius means it won't be significantly harder to hit, whereas an afterburner's much lower velocity upgrade will make the ship much harder to track because there is no increase in signature radius. The basic mechanics of the system are a little obtuse when you first start out. If you aren't the sort of person who picks apart a math equation to see what makes it tic, then the best solution is to read the tracking guide and test different tactics and fittings yourself. It won't be long until you figure out how everything works.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:43:00 - [17] Guess I should do a bit more reading then... www.wikipedia.org... "The radian is a unit of plane angle, equal to 180/π degrees, or about 57.2958 degrees." "It follows that the magnitude in radians of one complete revolution (360 degrees) is the length of the entire circumference divided by the radius, or 2πr /r, or 2π. Thus 2π radians is equal to 360 degrees, meaning that one radian is equal to 180/π degrees." hmmm... So, a target 10km out (radius), would mean the circumference of the orbit is 62.8318km (20km3.14159). If 1rad/sec is 57.2958 degrees, then ((62.3818/360)57.2958) it would equate to a 9.9284km stretch of the orbit? So a turret tracking at 0.25rad/sec would track a target 10km out at 2.482km/s? Is this more accurate?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Guess I should do a bit more reading then... www.wikipedia.org... "The radian is a unit of plane angle, equal to 180/π degrees, or about 57.2958 degrees." "It follows that the magnitude in radians of one complete revolution (360 degrees) is the length of the entire circumference divided by the radius, or 2πr /r, or 2π. Thus 2π radians is equal to 360 degrees, meaning that one radian is equal to 180/π degrees." hmmm... So, a target 10km out (radius), would mean the circumference of the orbit is 62.8318km (20km3.14159). If 1rad/sec is 57.2958 degrees, then ((62.3818/360)57.2958) it would equate to a 9.9284km stretch of the orbit? So a turret tracking at 0.25rad/sec would track a target 10km out at 2.482km/s? Is this more accurate? yup but only if that ship has a sig radius larger than your guns. HAVE FUN K THX BYE.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:51:00 - [19] /feels more enlightened than 5 mins ago. That's fine, I tend to fly small ships, so most targets are bigger than the 40m resolution of my guns anyway
NoNah	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Guess I should do a bit more reading then... www.wikipedia.org... "The radian is a unit of plane angle, equal to 180/π degrees, or about 57.2958 degrees." "It follows that the magnitude in radians of one complete revolution (360 degrees) is the length of the entire circumference divided by the radius, or 2πr /r, or 2π. Thus 2π radians is equal to 360 degrees, meaning that one radian is equal to 180/π degrees." hmmm... So, a target 10km out (radius), would mean the circumference of the orbit is 62.8318km (20km3.14159). If 1rad/sec is 57.2958 degrees, then ((62.3818/360)57.2958) it would equate to a 9.9284km stretch of the orbit? So a turret tracking at 0.25rad/sec would track a target 10km out at 2.482km/s? Is this more accurate? Well, there's a reason why radians are used so often. You're not using PI, but a rounderd figure there of, and keep rounding it. Each time you round your answer will get less and less accurate. A full circle perimeter is 2πr where r is the radius of the circle. So if a ship would be circling at 1km distance, making a full laps every second, it would have to keep a speed of 2πr/s. With r being 1km, it woudl be 2πkm/s. Now if he would do this at 10km, he would have to do 20πkm/s. This also means that to not track him with 0.25rad/s at 10km, he would have to do: Full lapse: 2π10km Your tracking: 0.25 parts of lapse/2π per second. Both 2π cancel eachother out, and hence you're stuck with 0.25 10km = 2.5km per second. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 39745
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.11.28 09:55:00 - [21] You guys are making this way harder than it needs to be. 1 radian is the distance on the edge of a circle equal to its radius, therefore, one radian is the distance from you to the target. To find what the max transversal your guns can track at any given range, just multiply the gun tracking by the distance to the target. This is especially useful in EFT since you can determine what your optimum orbit is advance and select an ammo type that's most effective at that range, as well as figuring out just how close is too close when using heavily tracking penalized ammos like Spike. Spike is ****ing awesome as long as you have a very clear understanding of it's limitations (and carry other ammo types, of course) Remember that guns get an effective tracking bonus against big targets and a penalty against smaller ones - e.g. a medium gun is bonused against BS and penalized against frigs, and a small gun is penalized against drones and bonused against destroyers.
Stoffl LFC	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:45:00 - [22] Edited by: Stoffl on 28/11/2008 10:48:01 I can't believe noone posted the frikkin Tracking-guide yet.. o.O http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_5.asp
Wil Smithx Minmatar Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.11.28 10:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Stoffl Edited by: Stoffl on 28/11/2008 10:48:01 I can't believe noone posted the frikkin Tracking-guide yet.. o.O http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_5.asp Please read the first 3 posts.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.28 11:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Sigras lol . . . i believe its 2 Pi radians =360 degrees /gives a cookie :)
Andraine Coded Arms Corp	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:06:00 - [25] Of course it's all a lot easier to understand when you get out there and start shooting stuff. I reckon most of EVE pvpers don't know the theory, but understand the basic concept of traversal, optimal and falloff....without sifting through the numbers yobo
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.28 12:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Andraine Of course it's all a lot easier to understand when you get out there and start shooting stuff. I reckon most of EVE pvpers don't know the theory, but understand the basic concept of traversal, optimal and falloff....without sifting through the numbers Pretty much it yeah :P. I use missiles myself, but read the tracking guide some time ago. Know thy enemy and such ;). And it do not hurt when I do use turrets once in a while myself :)
Darth Vaders Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.28 14:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Kaptain Failmail So I have bit the bullet and started training gunnery, im going to use railguns since im Caldari. I have a few questions, I know I have to keep within optimal range to get optimal damage. Do I have to slow down to use my guns, or can I go full speed, stay within my optimal range and hit for max damage, or do I have to slow down to half speed. I can fly frigs to bs, I have asked others and they have told me the only time you really need to slow down is when using large railguns. What about small and medium railguns, can i orbit at 700m/s and hit them. A link to a guide for dummies or some good insight would be appreciated. Thanks Open overview settings and add velocity and trasversal indicators. Then watch the trasversal and try to keep it as low as possible between you and your current target. Move accordingly to achieve that. Hiting targets within optimal achieves best damage possibity. But for small targets it can be better shoot them into optimal + some falloff since moving away from them decreases their trasversal towards you so you can actually get a hit against them which is better than going for max damage and not hit them at all.
Sekhen Oni Caldari Sickle Moon Overtime Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.28 14:28:00 - [28] Seems to me that there's a lot of math going on, and for some people, a more practical approach might be better. With ranges, there's optimal and there's falloff. If things are far away, you incur a penalty to hit. Then there's signature, which I believe boils down to that big guns are designed to shoot at big things, and small guns are designed to shoot at small things. With the Tracking-speed, I would suggest thinking of it this way: Immagine 2 people running around randomly on a football-field. (Probably drunk). They have been given the task to run around, and keep their right hand pointing at the other person. If you immagine that situation, you should be able to visualise, that depending on whether they are running the same direction, away from eachother, one turning one way, the other turning the other way, etc, etc, their arms need to move/turn at varying speeds to keep pointing at eachother. Now immagine that one has severe arthritis in his shoulder, and can only move his arm at slow speeds. Obviously, depending on how the two people are running relatively to eachother, there will be times when his arthritic arm means that he needs a longer time to turn it to point at the other guy. This is not an issue at long distances, or when they are running roughly the same direction, but if one or both is turning a lot, the slow arm will have trouble keeping up. THAT is tracking-speed. A limitation in how fast you can turn a turret (the arm) to point at a ship (the other person) when both are moving around (Drunken frolicing on a football field). ...and I propose ou forget the rest.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.28 14:41:00 - [29] Edited by: lebrata on 28/11/2008 14:41:46 1. Get a buddy who can fly ships the size of frigs to BS then jump in your rail ship on sissi and test at what range and transversal you can actually hit him in the various sized ships and at what ranges per ammo type. Take note of these figures and apply them to pvp fights on tq by using weapon grouping and picking the right moment to activate your guns.
Lisandraia	Posted - 2008.11.28 15:13:00 - [30] This is why I often advice rookies to learn how to do L2 missions with a destroyer: because it's superior range and tracking is all it has to depend on for survival. If you manage to complete L2 missions in a destroyer, you can claim to have understood these concepts. If you can only survive L2 missions in an armor tanking cruiser, then you'll probably never learn how to use these concepts to your advantage. Unfortunately whenever I make that suggestion on a help channel, I usually get flamed.

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