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Nebulous
Minmatar Thukker Insurgents
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Posted - 2008.11.28 21:59:00 -
[1]
Was just wondering as it seems many are calling the missile changes a caldari nerf, can someone explain the logic???
This was not a caldari fix it was a missile fix... YES! Missiles! As in those missile launchers that nearly all the races use in some way or another.
Caldari also have railgun platforms incase you didnt notice(with massive snipe range), they also posses bonuses to possibly the best electronic warfare in the game "target jammers".
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:01:00 -
[2]
The only people whining fail at EVE.
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Strikeclone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Strikeclone on 28/11/2008 22:05:54 Basically this thread is spam. 
"Peace through the application of superior firepower"
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manfrog
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:06:00 -
[4]
only 2 rail boats a moa that is a joke and rohk that does ok
target jammers are nufed since they are the only mode in game that is based on chance or % of jamming and unless your high skilled in that your dead. :) your dead anyway first time you mis a jam
snipe range means nothing with the nano***s still having full advantage of speed
all it takes is 2 nanos to take a BS down
with missles now anything that moves = no damage to very little
...........
WoW that way ------->>>>
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:09:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Karille on 28/11/2008 22:09:18 Stolen from Tippia
Non-missile ships Harpy ù Hybrids. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion ù Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera ù More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant ù Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon ù Turrets + Launchers. Bantam ù Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin ù Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Badger ù Turret. Bardger Mk II ù Turret. Raptor ù Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern ù More drones than your mom and her dog can handle.
Missile + Drone ships Drake ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk û Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan ù Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile ships with turret slots Buzzard. Kitsune. Condor. Crow. Flycatcher. Manticore.
Missile-only ships Hawk. Rook. Kestrel. Cerberus. Onyx. Crane.
Of the 41 Caldari ships that can fit some kind of weapon, 23 are missile-oriented. Of those 23, 11 can field drones. Of the 12 that remain, 3 are not really combat ships and 6 can fit turrets for things the missiles can't catch. A total of 6 out of 41 ships (14%) have no option but to use missiles. Of those 6, two have better ways of ruining the enemy's day, and one isn't a combat ship. Out of the 41 ships, 20 can carry drones ù 14 can field a full drone swarm.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:10:00 -
[6]
lol cadari, ho uses them ayway
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Nebulous
Minmatar Thukker Insurgents
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: manfrog only 2 rail boats a moa that is a joke and rohk that does ok
target jammers are nufed since they are the only mode in game that is based on chance or % of jamming and unless your high skilled in that your dead. :) your dead anyway first time you mis a jam
snipe range means nothing with the nano***s still having full advantage of speed
all it takes is 2 nanos to take a BS down
with missles now anything that moves = no damage to very little
Harpy? Eagle? Vulture?
Yes jamming is % based but from personal experience of being on the recieving end of it then it works extremely well, I've spent entire minutes watching one of my ships being jammed by a BB while a couple of other ships slowly grind me down, after that I may get one lock just before getting jammed again, not saying I dislike it, just saying that it is not flawed and is still imo the best EWAR in eve.
As for the nano ships they can usually be seen off by fitting a neut, a raven is very well placed to fit a neut next to it's launchers.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: manfrog only 2 rail boats a moa that is a joke and rohk that does ok
  
Research ftw, eh?
Time for a repost (hybrids = gives bonus to hybrids; missiles = gives bonus to missiles; turrets/launchers = has non-bonused slots):
Non-missile ships Harpy — Hybrids. Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion — Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera — More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird — Turrets + Launchers. Moa — Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey — Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant — Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon — Turrets + Launchers. Bantam — Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin — Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers. Badger — Turret. Bardger Mk II — Turret. Raptor — Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern — More drones than your mom and her dog can handle.
Missile + Drone ships Drake — Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven — Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow — Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal — Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix — Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin — Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron — Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk – Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem — Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan — Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile ships with turret slots Buzzard. Kitsune. Condor. Crow. Flycatcher. Manticore.
Missile-only ships Hawk. Rook. Kestrel. Cerberus. Onyx. Crane.
I count 9 ships with hybrid bonuses…
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |

manfrog
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 28/11/2008 22:09:18 Stolen from Tippia
Non-missile ships Harpy ù Hybrids. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion ù Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera ù More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant ù Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon ù Turrets + Launchers. Bantam ù Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin ù Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Badger ù Turret. Bardger Mk II ù Turret. Raptor ù Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern ù More drones than your mom and her dog can handle.
Missile + Drone ships Drake ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk û Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan ù Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile ships with turret slots Buzzard. Kitsune. Condor. Crow. Flycatcher. Manticore.
Missile-only ships Hawk. Rook. Kestrel. Cerberus. Onyx. Crane.
Of the 41 Caldari ships that can fit some kind of weapon, 23 are missile-oriented. Of those 23, 11 can field drones. Of the 12 that remain, 3 are not really combat ships and 6 can fit turrets for things the missiles can't catch. A total of 6 out of 41 ships (14%) have no option but to use missiles. Of those 6, two have better ways of ruining the enemy's day, and one isn't a combat ship. Out of the 41 ships, 20 can carry drones ù 14 can field a full drone swarm.
lol now subtract the ships that don't get anykind of bonuses to rails as traking rof and damage since you when through all that trouble :) then take away the T2 ships and what do you have..
...........
WoW that way ------->>>>
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Nebulous
Minmatar Thukker Insurgents
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Strikeclone Edited by: Strikeclone on 28/11/2008 22:05:54 Basically this thread is spam. 
You used a rude word before your EDIT: Shame on you! 
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:17:00 -
[11]
becuase my cruiser missiles cannot explody frigates ne more, caldari is unplayable!
I don't know man, in missions my cruise kill bs at the same rate, can 2/3 volley battle crusiers, and cruisers take like 6 volleys rather than 5. and that was with guided missile precision 1 and target navigation prediction 1. getting them up a bit and we will see what they do. nav is at 4, and precision just finished level 2 (not really high on the priority list) w/e
that and I can always just fit a painter  
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Strikeclone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 28/11/2008 22:09:18 Stolen from Tippia
Non-missile ships Harpy ù Hybrids. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion ù Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera ù More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant ù Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon ù Turrets + Launchers. Bantam ù Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin ù Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Badger ù Turret. Bardger Mk II ù Turret. Raptor ù Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern ù More drones than your mom and her dog can handle.
Missile + Drone ships Drake ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk û Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan ù Missiles + 5x Drones.
Missile ships with turret slots Buzzard. Kitsune. Condor. Crow. Flycatcher. Manticore.
Missile-only ships Hawk. Rook. Kestrel. Cerberus. Onyx. Crane.
Of the 41 Caldari ships that can fit some kind of weapon, 23 are missile-oriented. Of those 23, 11 can field drones. Of the 12 that remain, 3 are not really combat ships and 6 can fit turrets for things the missiles can't catch. A total of 6 out of 41 ships (14%) have no option but to use missiles. Of those 6, two have better ways of ruining the enemy's day, and one isn't a combat ship. Out of the 41 ships, 20 can carry drones ù 14 can field a full drone swarm.
This reply is also spam.
It does nothing to dispute that missiles have been a problem both as a user and a target since day one.
What is clear to every missile user is that every "balance" applied to missiles since day one has been in fact a nerf.
And Caldari characters can definately be biased towards missiles by both starter skill packages and backstory this is just another Caldari nerf.
"Peace through the application of superior firepower"
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:20:00 -
[13]
About the same time it was decided by the same people that the only way to run missions was with missiles.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |

Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: manfrog lol now subtract the ships that don't get anykind of bonuses to rails as traking rof and damage since you when through all that trouble :) then take away the T2 ships and what do you have..
So what you're saying is basically "if you remove all ships that I forgot to count, for some arbitrary reason, I was right"? 
Rails = hybrids. Hybrid bonus = rails bonus. And why don't T2 ships count all of a sudden?
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |

Vaugue
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:22:00 -
[15]
Hold on. I'm busy buying rails for my Nighthawk. be with you in a moment...
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 28/11/2008 22:09:18 Non-missile ships Harpy ù Hybrids. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5x Drones. Rokh ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Scorpion ù Turrets + Launchers + 5x Drones. Chimera ù More drones than your mom can handle. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5x Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3x Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4x Drones. Cormorant ù Hybrids + Launcher. Falcon ù Turrets + Launchers. Bantam ù Turrets + 1x Drone. Merlin ù Hybrids + Launchers. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Badger ù Turret. Bardger Mk II ù Turret. Raptor ù Hybrids + Launchers. Wyvern ù More drones than your mom and her dog can handle.
Missile + Drone ships Drake ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Raven ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Widow ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2x Drones. Phoenix ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Griffin ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Heron ù Missiles (+ turret) + 1x Drone. Basilisk û Missiles (+ turret) + 5x Drones. Golem ù Missiles + 5x Drones. Leviathan ù Missiles + 5x Drones.
WTB; Battle Badgers, Caldari ships with drone and drone bay bonuses, Ospreys, and all Caldari caps and supercaps.
Confirming I'll be receiving the ISK and Caldari is not a missile race because their caps and supercaps haz teh dronez.
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manfrog
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: manfrog lol now subtract the ships that don't get anykind of bonuses to rails as traking rof and damage since you when through all that trouble :) then take away the T2 ships and what do you have..
So what you're saying is basically "if you remove all ships that I forgot to count, for some arbitrary reason, I was right"? 
Rails = hybrids. Hybrid bonus = rails bonus. And why don't T2 ships count all of a sudden?
Because T2 is an after thought from ccp and new players can use them anyway
read the cald backstory and you see why most are cald the missle sell pitch worked back then and now the missles are being treaded just like a gun......
CCP has made it a 1 race 1 gun game now and folks that SP in missles now have to train in somthing they didn't want to both in weapons and ships
...........
WoW that way ------->>>>
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: manfrog
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: manfrog lol now subtract the ships that don't get anykind of bonuses to rails as traking rof and damage since you when through all that trouble :) then take away the T2 ships and what do you have..
So what you're saying is basically "if you remove all ships that I forgot to count, for some arbitrary reason, I was right"? 
Rails = hybrids. Hybrid bonus = rails bonus. And why don't T2 ships count all of a sudden?
Because T2 is an after thought from ccp and new players can use them anyway
read the cald backstory and you see why most are cald the missle sell pitch worked back then and now the missles are being treaded just like a gun......
CCP has made it a 1 race 1 gun game now and folks that SP in missles now have to train in somthing they didn't want to both in weapons and ships
Now imagine being Minmatar.
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manfrog
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: manfrog
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: manfrog lol now subtract the ships that don't get anykind of bonuses to rails as traking rof and damage since you when through all that trouble :) then take away the T2 ships and what do you have..
So what you're saying is basically "if you remove all ships that I forgot to count, for some arbitrary reason, I was right"? 
Rails = hybrids. Hybrid bonus = rails bonus. And why don't T2 ships count all of a sudden?
Because T2 is an after thought from ccp and new players can use them anyway
read the cald backstory and you see why most are cald the missle sell pitch worked back then and now the missles are being treaded just like a gun......
CCP has made it a 1 race 1 gun game now and folks that SP in missles now have to train in somthing they didn't want to both in weapons and ships
Now imagine being Minmatar.
I have a stabber alt he rocks :) have not trained other than light missles anything more is a waste
...........
WoW that way ------->>>>
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TheStarman
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:39:00 -
[20]
I'm on sisi right now, and using a Rokh, common sense, and all of my 5m SP, am ratting really effectively.
Hint: Blasters + Light drones + Webifier.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 22:42:00 -
[21]
Originally by: manfrog Because T2 is an after thought from ccp and new players can use them anyway
Doesn't change the fact that the Caldari are hybrid users.
Quote: CCP has made it a 1 race 1 gun game now and folks that SP in missles now have to train in somthing they didn't want to both in weapons and ships
Oh, you mean 1 race 1 gun, as in "Gallente = Drones + Hybrids; Minmatar = Anything that goes boom; Amarr = Lasers + Missiles."
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |

Cairn Metalhand
Swedish Aerospace Inc G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.28 23:26:00 -
[22]
What do you expect when you nerf the race with all the nublets? Especially since they have been playing easymode for so long, then bringing them back to reality, no wonder they scream  Personally i havent even noticed the difference since the patch, but then i use a targetpainter...
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:13:00 -
[23]
Missles are the weapon of the Caldari race and thier ships. A Damnation is also a missle boat and you could argue this patch destroyed the Damnation but if you can fly a damnation, you can fly plenty of ships that will compare to it.
This was a nerf on level 4 mission runners. PvP is still a gank effect. |

Vj Fury
Caldari Elite Secret Society
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:14:00 -
[24]
Whats the point of arguing , all thats going to happen is Gallente , Amarr and all other non missile using races are going to continue to say L2P or adapt to survive .. Not hard to disagree when you don't have to live with the changes made right ?
I read someone commenting on Gallente low slot tanks not being able to fit dmg mods due to tank , Go compare the ships a very good amount of Amarr , Gallente and Mini ships get a dmg bonus , Very Very Few of the caldari hybrid platforms get that dmg bonus , with the exception of the Ewar ships Caldari are lowest on the totem for pvp regardless of whether it be missile or Hybrids , I took a gimpse at Caldari hybrid ships a while back and decided to cross train to gallente ships as they were alot more viable for pvp. ( Can tackle , Scram , Tank and do good dps all at the same time ) while caldari can tank and do good dmg if stacking Magstab II's x3 but its a Tackle or tank choice , I realize that most amarr ships are lacking mids but they are still far better than caldari for pvp
I have very good missile skills personally , and I'm not one to complain but i can seriously feel the difference Before / After QR , The only reason I'm not complaining is that I crosstrained Gallente and Amarr ships/Gunnery and trained up drones so that i could pvp ( knowing missiles were trash Pre QR )
Best bet is to just cross train and deal with it
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FinalFlash84
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: FinalFlash84 on 29/11/2008 00:16:06
Originally by: Tippia
I would personally sum it up like this: Amarr: Lasers + Missiles + Drones Minmatar: Projectiles + Missiles + Drones Gallente: Hybrids + Drones Caldari: Missiles + Hyrbids
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ocih Missles are the weapon of the Caldari race and thier ships. A Damnation is also a missle boat and you could argue this patch destroyed the Damnation but if you can fly a damnation, you can fly plenty of ships that will compare to it.
This was a nerf on level 4 mission runners. PvP is still a gank effect.
So in what situation would you bring a HML cerb if your other 2 options were a rail eagle or a beam Zealot?
For HAM cerb compare to Sac & Deimos.
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: Ocih Missles are the weapon of the Caldari race and thier ships. A Damnation is also a missle boat and you could argue this patch destroyed the Damnation but if you can fly a damnation, you can fly plenty of ships that will compare to it.
This was a nerf on level 4 mission runners. PvP is still a gank effect.
So in what situation would you bring a HML cerb if your other 2 options were a rail eagle or a beam Zealot?
For HAM cerb compare to Sac & Deimos.
HAM Cerb with what? Solo? Nothing lives solo in PvP. HAM Cerb won't take primary, they aren't dps. They can pop drones, they can pop AF's. It's gank. Saying you are bringing a HAM Cerb, saying I am bringing a Tach & gleam Abaddon, it's about fleets. PvP isn't effected. You aren't going to solo mission in a HAM Cerb, you won't Solo a level 4 in a Tach/ Gleam Abaddon. You could in a Cruise missle raven. Now you can't. It was a nerf on mission runners. It was just broad enough it impacted everything Missle. |

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.29 00:37:00 -
[28]
Missiles got BETTER against full-nano fits, which suck right now. Missiles got WAY WORSE against anything with an AB, and even against SOME non-speedmod ships.
According to CCP, that was a missile boost. According to everybody who actually PVPs (or even most PVEers), it was a missile nerf.
All in all, it was a missile "balance".
Meh.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |

Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.11.29 01:25:00 -
[29]
Since caldari have about 3 railboats, 1 worth using in very specific uses. the only other type of caldari ship is ECM which is 9001% overpowered (falcon anyone? )
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Arkeladin
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Posted - 2008.11.29 02:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nebulous Was just wondering as it seems many are calling the missile changes a caldari nerf, can someone explain the logic???
This was not a caldari fix it was a missile fix... YES! Missiles! As in those missile launchers that nearly all the races use in some way or another.
Caldari also have railgun platforms incase you didnt notice(with massive snipe range), they also posses bonuses to possibly the best electronic warfare in the game "target jammers".
Yes, that's true. HOWEVER....
Notice the ship bonuses for weapons.
For Caldari? Missileboats - missile damage bonus (usually kinetic, the Caldari default damage type).
Their railships? Usually RANGE bonuses, to solidify their positions as snipers. Damage bonuses to hybrids? VERY rare on Caldari boats - again, it's susally range.
And sicne PvP types aren't really all that fussed with range (in PvP, most believe damage is king) therefore nerf the weapons with damage bonuses - nerfing the race. That simple. You don't see a lot of missioneers complaining about the missile changes - unless it's t9o admit they don't know how to use drones on small stuff.
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