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Su Yildiz
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:23:00 -
[1]
Hi all, just to clarify... this is an alt. posting ;)
Okay, My question is this, WHY do you need to be able to FIT or FLY the object you are manufacturing in EVE ?
To be it seems like a bit of an ISK / Time sink to be forced to train lots of skills for stuff that you might never actually use yourself, just so you can build stuff that requires it.
I give you an example, my main is Caldari, hence I don't train armortanking skills much, much less armor rigging. However I was so fortunate to come across quite a bit of salvage the other day, so I decided to try to assemble some of it with our corps. nice collection of pre-researched RIG BPO's.... But alas... NO! of course I could not start the construction, because I was missing the stupid armor rigging skill. Now I know that it wouldn't take me forever to train that skill, but it's kind of pointless for me to have it, unless I decide to go train Gallentean ships sometime in the future (which I might).
So I'd like an answer to why CCP decided to implement this, to be fair, and I know this is slightly "stupid" of me to say, in the real world, aircraft-mechanics don't have to go through flight-training to become pilots, just so they can fix aircrafts, much less factoryworkers at the aircraft factories. So CCP, WHY???
Also, LaVista Vista, if you read this, please bring this question up when you're at CCP next time, unless you disagree with me :P
PS. This is -NOT- a troll-thread.
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Rosalina Sarinna
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:30:00 -
[2]
Hum. I think this is a choice of two evils.
Either you'd have the current system where you have to get level 1 in that skill for that BPO type, or they would have to make a new set of skills (or new skill) just for manufacturers... (Ie. current skills for people *using* them, and a new skill called 'Rig Construction' for example). Its not a bad idea of course... because at the moment nothign stops regular combat people making their own rigs without much in the way of manufacturing SP'ing.
Interesting point to raise.
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:35:00 -
[3]
I see this as the lone example of this situation. Rigs, in my eyes, are a different animal than most production. Most produced items are built to a specific plan, while rigs, are more the 'duct-tape and chewing gum' flavor of item. I think if you are going to be monkeying around with a shield recharging system, for instance, you should have a decent idea how that system is supposed to work.
Rigs are not some highly engineered item designed in a lab, they are trial and error tweaks by the end-user, using real-world experience to trade off one characteristic for another.
The fact that they still use the nanobot assembly lines is more of a convenience/consistency of game design than anything.
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Su Yildiz
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:39:00 -
[4]
Lets say I want to start building T2 rigs, that means I would have to take whatever relevant skill to L4 just to be able to build the rig.
As far as I know all Rig-related skills are Rank 3 which means they will take about 3.5 days each to train.
There are 9 such skills...
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Su Yildiz
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:44:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Su Yildiz on 29/11/2008 23:44:14
 Originally by: Clansworth
I see this as the lone example of this situation. Rigs, in my eyes, are a different animal than most production. Most produced items are built to a specific plan, while rigs, are more the 'duct-tape and chewing gum' flavor of item. I think if you are going to be monkeying around with a shield recharging system, for instance, you should have a decent idea how that system is supposed to work.
Rigs are not some highly engineered item designed in a lab, they are trial and error tweaks by the end-user, using real-world experience to trade off one characteristic for another.
The fact that they still use the nanobot assembly lines is more of a convenience/consistency of game design than anything.
Good point, I completely understand what you mean here, however rigs was just an example since it's one of the more simple things to get into construction-wise.
On the other hand, there ARE BPO's for these rigs on the market, which "means" that it's "not" ducttape and chewinggum, but something else.
Considering the development-time required to create a whole new type of "construction" for these rigs, I completely understand why CCP went with the easy way of just making BPO's for them, instead of making a mini-game of sorts for construction and fitting of rigs. (Which would have been cool of course, if they did)
(edited for readability)
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Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:53:00 -
[6]
Yepp this annoyed me too. Then I realised the very minimal timesink needed to research T1 rigs BPOs / produce them. This isn't an issue that needs to be adressed
------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
...
There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Su Yildiz
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Elhina Novae
Yepp this annoyed me too. Then I realised the very minimal timesink needed to research T1 rigs BPOs / produce them. This isn't an issue that needs to be adressed
Again, rigs was an example, lets say you want to build T2 Battleships... ;)
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Pwett
Minmatar
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.11.30 02:58:00 -
[8]
To be honest, before rigs and t2 came about it took all of 20 days to practically max out a production character. I wish there was a much larger skill path so that there would be a benefit towards production specialization.
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Pwett
Founder
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Frenden Dax
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Posted - 2008.11.30 03:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Pwett
To be honest, before rigs and t2 came about it took all of 20 days to practically max out a production character. I wish there was a much larger skill path so that there would be a benefit towards production specialization.
We might see something like what you want in the March expansion, or maybe in the Summer one. I certainly am not happy with the very low bar to entry for T1 production; anyone and their dog shouldn't be able to grab a BPC and make stuff with zero training time.
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Mordakai Drakken
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Posted - 2008.11.30 05:33:00 -
[10]
Actually, I believe rigs are pretty much the only item you need the same skill to use as to build. All your T2 construction takes science/industry skills to build. And most T1 BPs take either no skills, or in the case of Cap skips, take the appropiate Capital Ship Construction skill. I build T2 Frigates, T2 Cruisers, and Capital Ships, I can't fly any of them (except AF and Cov Ops). So it seems you found the exception, not the rule. And I do believe it has to do with the nature of rigs. So think of it more like this : If you have the skill to BUILD a rig, you happen to know enough about it to USE a rig :)
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.11.30 09:30:00 -
[11]
I can see this issue from 2 points of view:
1. Gameplay/Annoyance. Yeah, training skills can suck. It takes time and investment. But so does everything else.
2. Economics. Skills are a, even if small, barrier to entry.
But for instance, I can build capital ships myself. I used to do for quite a while. But I can't fit nor fly it. I also build T2 stuff and battleships. I can't use it either, nor fly them. So I think rig is one of the few things that requires the skill to use them, also to produce them.
But barriers to entry are good for the industry I think. The theory of Perfect competition describes that there should be low barriers to entry and exit. Skills creates this.
You could take barriers to entry to a new level and consider how skills can affect economics of scale. It's something which the game currently doesn't do anything in regards to. Right now everybody works with the same marginal cost, but the output is just different from player to player. Bringing economics of scale to EVE would be exciting! 
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.11.30 11:19:00 -
[12]
Could you imagine a car company existing here full of employees that couldn't drive ?
No ?
ssshh or you will find that they will change it so you have to be able to fly anything you can build :p
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Pwett
Minmatar
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.11.30 11:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
Could you imagine a car company existing here full of employees that couldn't drive ?
No ?
ssshh or you will find that they will change it so you have to be able to fly anything you can build :p
Actually, due to the nature of the assembly line, as long as each person knew how to manage their 1 foot of construction space, it doesn't matter if they even know what they're building.
(hopes CCP introduces my wage-slavery expansion set)
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Pwett
Founder
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.11.30 11:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Su Yildiz
Originally by: Elhina Novae
Yepp this annoyed me too. Then I realised the very minimal timesink needed to research T1 rigs BPOs / produce them. This isn't an issue that needs to be adressed
Again, rigs was an example, lets say you want to build T2 Battleships... ;)
You don't need to know how to fly t2 battleships in order to make them.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.11.30 12:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Su Yildiz
Originally by: Elhina Novae
Yepp this annoyed me too. Then I realised the very minimal timesink needed to research T1 rigs BPOs / produce them. This isn't an issue that needs to be adressed
Again, rigs was an example, lets say you want to build T2 Battleships... ;)
Have you actually looked into the requirements for T2 BS? They require Mechanical Engineering IV, Racial Starship Engineering IV, and Battleship Construction IV. Similar (though usually lower) requirements exist for other T2 ships. Rigs are alone in requiring the skills to use them to produce them.
I don't really see a problem with the most advanced designs out there requiring specialized skills to build.
-------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn
I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
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Pwett
Minmatar
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.11.30 13:05:00 -
[16]
Which is still far, far less than the skills needed to fly a t2 bs.
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Pwett
Founder
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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