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WTH ! What Missile Nerf ? Caldari are suk ? WHAT!

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Truk Mei	Posted - 2008.11.30 19:45:00 - [1] I just don't get it .... The nerf whines The Caldari are worthless whines Quantum Rise ruined Eve Online ARE YOU KIDDING ME ? I 'almost' took the bait offered by the whiners and sh$tposters ... That was until I finally had time to play Eve, actually undock and run a few missions. Now, I don't know much about the math and don't care much about going over the mechanics with a microscope ... BUT I have no problem sending rats to the vacuum void of space, then and NOW !!! I mean, I simply slaughter rats !!! Maybe WoW has infected the MMO Geek with uber easy mode ???
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.11.30 19:48:00 - [2] I'll assume you have all your missile support skills to at least four and reply that the whiners are the ones with the lol level one torps and a couple of support skills to two or three. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
KingDiomedes Caldari Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:12:00 - [3] no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up
Truk Mei	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:12:00 - [4] Edited by: Truk Mei on 30/11/2008 20:14:09 Zeba , You've read my mind, before I even thought of it that way. That has to be the problem... well, 'their' problem. Train them there skills.
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:16:00 - [5] support skills support skills sup.... thats enough i think. but the only thing i notice about this so called "nerf" is that they buffed Kruul I don't instapwn him anymore Cheers, Faros WARNING SIG ALERT WARNING
Ragnar Darkstar	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:17:00 - [6] Missiles are now fairly unforgiving with low skills. For those with T2 or Faction fits, and relevant skills to 4-5 missions are a little slower but Caldari ships are still some of the best, if not the best mission runners. I assume by your post that you have decent skills. If so, enjoy. The problem is going to be for new players who start with missiles.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Truk Mei I just don't get it .... The nerf whines The Caldari are worthless whines Quantum Rise ruined Eve Online ARE YOU KIDDING ME ? I 'almost' took the bait offered by the whiners and sh$tposters ... That was until I finally had time to play Eve, actually undock and run a few missions. Now, I don't know much about the math and don't care much about going over the mechanics with a microscope ... BUT I have no problem sending rats to the vacuum void of space, then and NOW !!! I mean, I simply slaughter rats !!! Maybe WoW has infected the MMO Geek with uber easy mode ??? Mission is one thing, PvP is a whole other matter. Misison is easy anyways. int eh PvP environment its different, use that as a reference for effectivness, not missions.
Captain Pompous	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:22:00 - [8] Originally by: KingDiomedes no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up hey, king crap-a-lot, stfu with your "pvp-holier than thou" attitude. the op has a valid point and indeed has more validity to what he says than you, as you are merely trolling
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:25:00 - [9] Edited by: Malcanis on 30/11/2008 20:26:01 Originally by: KingDiomedes no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up How much damage does your cerb do to a MWDing Vagabond now, compared to before (before = 0.5hp/missile)
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar Missiles are now fairly unforgiving with low skills. For those with T2 or Faction fits, and relevant skills to 4-5 missions are a little slower but Caldari ships are still some of the best, if not the best mission runners. I assume by your post that you have decent skills. If so, enjoy. The problem is going to be for new players who start with missiles. Now players have no right to expect to be able to do level 4s in battleships.

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:28:00 - [11] sorry i follow him on this point .... since this game is PVP orientated everything is circuvant to PVP missions are easy all you got to do is follow a silly mission guide i mean you dont even have to think for yourself ...
Truk Mei	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:31:00 - [12] Originally by: KingDiomedes no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up Well, I'm not going to bother shaking my epeen in front of you to add weight to my point. My view on this situation comes from playing this 5 million SP character. It is Missile spec'd with a little over 2 million SP in Learning. That doesn't leave a lot of SP to spend on "bells 'n whistles" and I own PvE. As far as PvP and the noob comments go... Well, I'm not going to go through the effort and security risks (GIA anyone?)to prove your view of me is incorrect.
Ragnar Darkstar	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ragnar Darkstar Missiles are now fairly unforgiving with low skills. For those with T2 or Faction fits, and relevant skills to 4-5 missions are a little slower but Caldari ships are still some of the best, if not the best mission runners. I assume by your post that you have decent skills. If so, enjoy. The problem is going to be for new players who start with missiles. Now players have no right to expect to be able to do level 4s in battleships. No. They just can't do them with low SP. I have a Raven and CNR that do well on lvl 4s. The Maelstrom works fine as well but is slow.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.30 20:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Truk Mei Originally by: KingDiomedes no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up Well, I'm not going to bother shaking my epeen in front of you to add weight to my point. My view on this situation comes from playing this 5 million SP character. It is Missile spec'd with a little over 2 million SP in Learning. That doesn't leave a lot of SP to spend on "bells 'n whistles" and I own PvE. As far as PvP and the noob comments go... Well, I'm not going to go through the effort and security risks (GIA anyone?)to prove your view of me is incorrect. Might I ask in what ship you are employing your 3M non learning SP?
Lord Zap Caldari Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:38:00 - [15] Retrain Amarr
Oftherocks Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Truk Mei Originally by: KingDiomedes no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up Well, I'm not going to bother shaking my epeen in front of you to add weight to my point. My view on this situation comes from playing this 5 million SP character. It is Missile spec'd with a little over 2 million SP in Learning. That doesn't leave a lot of SP to spend on "bells 'n whistles" and I own PvE. As far as PvP and the noob comments go... Well, I'm not going to go through the effort and security risks (GIA anyone?)to prove your view of me is incorrect. Dude I have more than 5 million sp in missiles alone, trust me they are fubar and you are an ignorant noob. Originally by: Sheriff Jones No, i play hello kitty online and just paid for 5 years to come here and make comments about stuff i know nothing about and Wranglers pants.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:12:00 - [17] Edited by: Gypsio III on 30/11/2008 22:13:31 Originally by: Oftherocks Dude I have more than 5 million sp in missiles I have twice that, but more importantly, I know how to use them. Trust me, missiles aren't just fine, they are in general better than before QR. And you're an ignorant noob.
Oftherocks Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 30/11/2008 22:13:31 Originally by: Oftherocks Dude I have more than 5 million sp in missiles I have twice that, but more importantly, I know how to use them. Trust me, missiles aren't just fine, they are in general better than before QR. And you're an ignorant noob. Let's see, he said he has 5 million sp. 2 million in learning. You need a min of about 1.5 million sp in missile support to be even half way competent. To spec in either cruise or torps takes another 1.5 million sp. Therefore I call BS on the OP. I didn't say I have 5 million sp in missiles, I said I have more than that. When missiles don't hit their own class of ship that is not speed tanked for full damage they are fubar. To say they are better than pre-QR is totally ignoring ALL the facts. Originally by: Sheriff Jones No, i play hello kitty online and just paid for 5 years to come here and make comments about stuff i know nothing about and Wranglers pants.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Oftherocks When missiles don't hit their own class of ship that is not speed tanked for full damage they are fubar. Why?
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:53:00 - [20] Edited by: Haradgrim on 30/11/2008 22:55:14 quote instead of edit = double post -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.

Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:54:00 - [21] To summarize the OP: In the one game-play instance where you are able to almost exclusively engage targets of your owns class that don't have sufficient intelligence to make use of transversal (i.e. they are easily exploited, maneuvering wise), missiles are effective. Good luck with that. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2008.11.30 22:55:00 - [22] Sshhh! Don't tell them this. We've been having a really funny couple of weeks here! Come on guys, don't listen to him. Cry some more. Maybe tell everyone they're noobs as well. I trust you. You can do it! -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Oftherocks Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.11.30 23:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 30/11/2008 22:35:40 Originally by: Oftherocks When missiles don't hit their own class of ship that is not speed tanked for full damage they are fubar. Why? What is the relevance of this, and why is so important above all other aspects and eventualities in combat? (Hint - it isn't) Because that is the baseline damage. What a weapon hits its intended target at its optimal range and with no tank is its baseline damage. This is true for all weapons, not just missiles. Currently baseline missile damage is less than it was pre-QR against its intended targets, which means missile damage has been lowered (nerfed). If you read what the Devs have written (which I know you have) then you are aware that it was not their intention to lower the baseline damage of missiles, thus they are not functioning as intended. So its relevance is that missiles do less damage against their intended targets than before QR, which is very relevant in combat. Originally by: Sheriff Jones No, i play hello kitty online and just paid for 5 years to come here and make comments about stuff i know nothing about and Wranglers pants.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.01 00:13:00 - [24] Originally by: KingDiomedes pvp with missiles lol Before nerf it was lmao now it's lmao. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.01 00:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Haradgrim To summarize the OP: that don't have sufficient intelligence to make use of transversal I heard missiles can't transversal very well. (...) Wtf with missiles' ppl thinking they got artillery, lasers or hybrids ???? Repeat after me : M-I-S-S-I-L-E-S C-A-N'T P-V-P S-I-N-C-E 2-0-0-3 Fetchez la vache !
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.12.01 00:53:00 - [26] Originally by: KingDiomedes no one cares what a fluffy carebear thinks, when u try and pvp with missiles then ur opinion might have more weight to it, until then nubbin shut up Iv pvped with missiles and had no issues. I use 3 ballistic controls, and rage cruises on my raven, and fit it with a 800-1200 dps tank. the missiles easily hit out to my max locking range, and I tend to send anything thats bc and above to the scrapyard fairly fast. Id estimate my damage to be around 600 dps. cruisers dont last long either but the damage scales down for them. I can hit inties, but normally you might as well forget killing those with cruise missiles. (thats as it should be) I have good SP on the character I use (he is 2 years old)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:01:00 - [27] Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/12/2008 01:04:36 Originally by: Oftherocks Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 30/11/2008 22:35:40 Originally by: Oftherocks When missiles don't hit their own class of ship that is not speed tanked for full damage they are fubar. Why? What is the relevance of this, and why is so important above all other aspects and eventualities in combat? (Hint - it isn't) Because that is the baseline damage. What a weapon hits its intended target at its optimal range and with no tank is its baseline damage. This is true for all weapons, not just missiles. Currently baseline missile damage is less than it was pre-QR against its intended targets, which means missile damage has been lowered (nerfed). If you read what the Devs have written (which I know you have) then you are aware that it was not their intention to lower the baseline damage of missiles, thus they are not functioning as intended. So its relevance is that missiles do less damage against their intended targets than before QR, which is very relevant in combat. No. You have assumed that the base speed of a ship is a meaningful quantity in combat. This is a flawed assumption that renders your analysis worthless, because ships very very rarely actually travel at their base speeds in combat. For example, your analysis tells us that pre-QR nanoHACs were hideously vulnerable to heavy missiles, because of a base speed of around 400-500 m/s - but we know that this wasn't true. Instead, ships act under the influence of propulsion mods and webbers. So, the ship speeds to consider in your analysis are the speeds when ABing and MWDing, when single- and dual-webbed - and agility, and the effects of manoeuvring on those speeds. You will also need to consider the relative occurrence of these states, the chances that you will need to shoot at a ship in one of these states and what you desire to achieve. For example, an ABing ship may show a nice missile speed tank on paper, but it has no way of avoiding getting webbed by a MWDing tackler - thereby removing the AB speed-tank. You will also need to compare the damage dealt to a speed-tanking ABing target against the damage dealt against it when it was speed-tanking by MWDing before QR, along with the meaning and importance of range. Once you have done this, the true nature of the missile boost will become clear.
Oftherocks Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/12/2008 01:04:36 Originally by: Oftherocks Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 30/11/2008 22:35:40 Originally by: Oftherocks When missiles don't hit their own class of ship that is not speed tanked for full damage they are fubar. Why? What is the relevance of this, and why is so important above all other aspects and eventualities in combat? (Hint - it isn't) Because that is the baseline damage. What a weapon hits its intended target at its optimal range and with no tank is its baseline damage. This is true for all weapons, not just missiles. Currently baseline missile damage is less than it was pre-QR against its intended targets, which means missile damage has been lowered (nerfed). If you read what the Devs have written (which I know you have) then you are aware that it was not their intention to lower the baseline damage of missiles, thus they are not functioning as intended. So its relevance is that missiles do less damage against their intended targets than before QR, which is very relevant in combat. No. You have assumed that the base speed of a ship is a meaningful quantity in combat. This is a flawed assumption that renders your analysis worthless, because ships very very rarely actually travel at their base speeds in combat. For example, your analysis tells us that pre-QR nanoHACs were hideously vulnerable to heavy missiles, because of a base speed of around 400-500 m/s - but we know that this wasn't true. Instead, ships act under the influence of propulsion mods and webbers. So, the ship speeds to consider in your analysis are the speeds when ABing and MWDing, when single- and dual-webbed - and agility, and the effects of manoeuvring on those speeds. You will also need to consider the relative occurrence of these states, the chances that you will need to shoot at a ship in one of these states and what you desire to achieve. For example, an ABing ship may show a nice missile speed tank on paper, but it has no way of avoiding getting webbed by a MWDing tackler - thereby removing the AB speed-tank. You will also need to compare the damage dealt to a speed-tanking ABing target against the damage dealt against it when it was speed-tanking by MWDing before QR, along with the meaning and importance of range. Once you have done this, the true nature of the missile boost will become clear. You're not even comparing missile damage pre-QR vs. post-QR, instead you appear to be comparing various combat styles and variables. The only way to accurately compare before and after missile damage is to use baseline measurements, you can't throw in random variables willy nilly in an attempt to prove your point. Originally by: Sheriff Jones No, i play hello kitty online and just paid for 5 years to come here and make comments about stuff i know nothing about and Wranglers pants.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:55:00 - [29] Well when the AFs with rocket bonuses are better off using ACs , blasters or pulses even if they got no bonuses for them it kinda says it all. Ofcourse I am only talking rockets here. Which should be brought in line with torps when it comes to effectivness vs intended targets.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Oftherocks Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/12/2008 01:04:36 Originally by: Oftherocks Because that is the baseline damage. What a weapon hits its intended target at its optimal range and with no tank is its baseline damage. This is true for all weapons, not just missiles. Currently baseline missile damage is less than it was pre-QR against its intended targets, which means missile damage has been lowered (nerfed). If you read what the Devs have written (which I know you have) then you are aware that it was not their intention to lower the baseline damage of missiles, thus they are not functioning as intended. So its relevance is that missiles do less damage against their intended targets than before QR, which is very relevant in combat. No. You have assumed that the base speed of a ship is a meaningful quantity in combat. This is a flawed assumption . Instead, ships act under the influence of propulsion mods and webbers. So, the ship speeds to consider in your analysis are the speeds when ABing and MWDing, when single- and dual-webbed - and agility, and the effects of manoeuvring on those speeds. You will also need to consider the relative occurrence of these states, the chances that you will need to shoot at a ship in one of these states and what you desire to achieve. For example, an ABing ship may show a nice missile speed tank on paper, but it has no way of avoiding getting webbed by a MWDing tackler - thereby removing the AB speed-tank. You will also need to compare the damage dealt to a speed-tanking ABing target against the damage dealt against it when it was speed-tanking by MWDing before QR, along with the meaning and importance of range. Once you have done this, the true nature of the missile boost will become clear. The only way to accurately compare before and after missile damage is to use baseline measurements, you can't throw in random variables willy nilly in an attempt to prove your point. He's saying there are more variables that affect how missiles will perform that aren't being considered when testing solely based on baseline speeds. Baseline speeds weren't an accurate way to determine missile efficiency in PVP pre QR and it still isn't enough post QR. What matters is how missile perform on the field in EVE in different situations. If you have to ignore that to make your argument then what's the point of your argument exactly? Caldari were poor at solo PVP pre patch. Across the board, solo PVP sounds like it is harder overall (web changes etc.). Showing how ineffectual Caldari are solo isn't proof that the missile changes made them useless. With good tackle in your gang they work very well. As far as PVE goes, ratting works just fine as I've tested that myself. I've heard from many that missions work just fine as well. Whether or not missiles are "balanced" against other races weapon systems is something I don't have the proper perspective to comment on as I've only ever played Caldari. I can however say determinately that missiles aren't useless and can be an effective addition to many gangs in many different situations. In my experience since the patch I've felt missiles are as useful to me as they always have been. This is of course anecdotal evidence and not conclusive of anything. However, this is indicative that missiles aren't a complete waste if I can make them work for me with minimal effort and ingenuity. Perhaps missiles could use a small tweak to make them "balanced", that's a different argument than most are making in these types of threads though. If anything missiles might be slightly worse off, nothing to go crazy about. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus



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