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Is T2 too cheap?

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Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:10:00 - [1] By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:16:00 - [2] PVP is supposed to be a net loss. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:19:00 - [3] Originally by: Kahega Amielden PVP is supposed to be a net loss. Think about what you just said.
4 LOM United Gamers	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:24:00 - [4] I am not sure what you are driving at.... you want a reward for pvp? i dont really know But if the value of T2 mods is higher, then you are risking more pvping with them so net change 0.... its math use it. But am still confused about what on earth you are talking about. Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:27:00 - [5] the free market. in this thread it scares us. it scares us greatly. -- i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:27:00 - [6] Straight from CCP Dionysus is that PVP is supposed to be a net loss. According to him, PVP is done to protect your income source (which can be roids, agents, moons, etc.) Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:28:00 - [7] {destroyed value} / {drop value}
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:28:00 - [8] ok lets look at some real world examples.... covetor-> hulk: covetor is 20 mill, hulk is 100 mill, thats a 5x increase in price. merlin -> hawk/harpy: merlin is about 400k, hawk/harpy is about 17 mill, thats a 42.5x increase in price moa -> eagle: moa is 7 mill, eagle is about 80 mill, thats a 11.4x increase in price. caracal -> cerberus: caracal is 5 mill, cerberus is 80 mill, thats a 16x price raise. I think this is in accordance with the risk:benefit ratio of eve
4 LOM United Gamers	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:33:00 - [9] Originally by: masternerdguy ok lets look at some real world examples.... covetor-> hulk: covetor is 20 mill, hulk is 100 mill, thats a 5x increase in price. merlin -> hawk/harpy: merlin is about 400k, hawk/harpy is about 17 mill, thats a 42.5x increase in price moa -> eagle: moa is 7 mill, eagle is about 80 mill, thats a 11.4x increase in price. caracal -> cerberus: caracal is 5 mill, cerberus is 80 mill, thats a 16x price raise. I think this is in accordance with the risk:benefit ratio of eve Wow assault frigs are heavily overprice in comparison to other tech 2.... lets change this thread to talk about that.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Kahega Amielden PVP is supposed to be a net loss. Think about what you just said. Both of you are right, but only because you're talking about different things PVP overall is supposed to be a net loss, only the best around are supposed to be able to sustain a PvP-heavy life without bothering to earn ISK some other way. On the other hand, the price of T2 fitings is quite low, a lot of times best named T1 is more expensive... however, that doesn't really matter, there's plenty of stuff that's both better and more expensive than T2, needs less to fit, etc. Still, you won't see many people use it, BECAUSE it's so expensive. The only way to increase the "value" of PvP-dropped loot is to increase the amount of money people would likely risk, in other words, increase the value of "other activities" income... which brings us basically nowhere. More likely, you are probably complaining about the fact T2 items are relatively cheap, but T2 ship hulls aren't. Well, that's nothing anybody except CCP could fix - they could buff up invention chances, ME/PE levels on invented (ship) blueprints, improve decryptors or even make the rare moon materials easier to mine or less used in T2 construction. Right ?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? So you say the risk is to high and losing a ship is to expensive and therefore you want to increase the costs of losing a ship? Somehow I don't understand that...
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:49:00 - [12] Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? Posting in a nonsense thread :P Sure, let's make T2 10x as expensive so only 10% as many people will be using it in pvp.
Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? So you say the risk is to high and losing a ship is to expensive and therefore you want to increase the costs of losing a ship? Somehow I don't understand that... No... He wants to make modules worth something so that when you use them and others use them, there is the ability to profit if you are smart and stay alive. Right now it doesnt matter if you kill 10-20 ships your size with fully fitted T2 mods, the second you die in a T2 ship you made a loss. I believe his point is, there should be a break even point where after X loots you at least break even on your ship investment even if it goes pop now.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:58:00 - [14] Guess you don't want to hear what T3 hulls are going to cost you huh?
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.12.01 02:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Kessiaan Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? Posting in a nonsense thread :P Sure, let's make T2 10x as expensive so only 10% as many people will be using it in pvp. I miss those days :( Meant you had to really think if it was worth fitting T2, and that the losses actually did hurt.
Neesa Corrinne Rogue Shadow Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:13:00 - [16] I do not wish to return to the days of 300 million ISK vagabonds and 30 million ISK invulnerability field II's. Honestly, I think a much more balancing game reform would be to severely cut back the amount of loot dropping from NPC rats in 0.0.
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:16:00 - [17] if you would like to pay more for your tech 2 items I would be happy to sell to you at higher prices. just contact me in game with your shopping list and how much above market you would like to pay. Delivery is extra, of course.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? Yes. The crash in T2 prices has really hurt the relative ISK income of pirates. Really bad. The number of kills required to make the same amount of ISK has increased by 10-20x. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Halada Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Kahega Amielden PVP is supposed to be a net loss. Think about what you just said. Both of you are right, but only because you're talking about different things PVP overall is supposed to be a net loss, only the best around are supposed to be able to sustain a PvP-heavy life without bothering to earn ISK some other way. On the other hand, the price of T2 fitings is quite low, a lot of times best named T1 is more expensive... however, that doesn't really matter, there's plenty of stuff that's both better and more expensive than T2, needs less to fit, etc. Still, you won't see many people use it, BECAUSE it's so expensive. The only way to increase the "value" of PvP-dropped loot is to increase the amount of money people would likely risk, in other words, increase the value of "other activities" income... which brings us basically nowhere. More likely, you are probably complaining about the fact T2 items are relatively cheap, but T2 ship hulls aren't. Well, that's nothing anybody except CCP could fix - they could buff up invention chances, ME/PE levels on invented (ship) blueprints, improve decryptors or even make the rare moon materials easier to mine or less used in T2 construction. Right ? This forumw*e knows her sheit. Be you a small fatty behind the keyboard or Heidi Klum, I do not care, 'coz you rock. You get to have your name mentionned in my next guide! ★ LSJV now recruiting ★**
Neesa Corrinne Rogue Shadow Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? Yes. The crash in T2 prices has really hurt the relative ISK income of pirates. Really bad. The number of kills required to make the same amount of ISK has increased by 10-20x. That's because piracy has become: Lock, F1-F8, Scoop Loot. To make money pirating, all you have to do is put the killboard epeen away and start ransoming again. Most people who just got done putting 150 mill into a battleship will happily pay 50 mill to not have to spend an hour fitting another one.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? Yes. The crash in T2 prices has really hurt the relative ISK income of pirates. Really bad. The number of kills required to make the same amount of ISK has increased by 10-20x. That's because piracy has become: Lock, F1-F8, Scoop Loot. To make money pirating, all you have to do is put the killboard epeen away and start ransoming again. Most people who just got done putting 150 mill into a battleship will happily pay 50 mill to not have to spend an hour fitting another one. All I do is ransom. Nobody wants to pay because 'it's insured, and T2 mods are super cheap'. The other day I ransomed a Kronos for 900m, but that's fairly rare these days. Even Navy Ravens and Navy Megas are just lousy to ransom unless they have T2 rigs. Everyone likes to self destruct their ships instead of paying up. It's stupid. And all due to cheap T2 and insurance. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:04:00 - [22] Edited by: Kessiaan on 01/12/2008 04:04:57 Insurance only pays out around 10-15% of the value of most T2 ships. I think the reason most people don't pay ransoms is because there's so many people out there that don't honor them - even if their T2 was 10x as expensive they wouldn't pay anyway because to them it's a better-than-even chance they'll just get exploded anyway. You can't expect your marks to keep track who's an honorable thief and who's not - it's not a distinction most people recognize.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:15:00 - [23] no, but you are malcanis lottsa love lol Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway
Little Matt Caldari New Fnord Industries	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 01/12/2008 04:04:57 Insurance only pays out around 10-15% of the value of most T2 ships. I think the reason most people don't pay ransoms is because there's so many people out there that don't honor them - even if their T2 was 10x as expensive they wouldn't pay anyway because to them it's a better-than-even chance they'll just get exploded anyway. You can't expect your marks to keep track who's an honorable thief and who's not - it's not a distinction most people recognize. I was just about to say this. If 'pirates' want to have their ransoms paid, they need to come down on their fellows who will accept a ransom and then pop the victim anyway. It's all about the PR, if common belief is that you get popped anyway (and it is) then why would anyobne trust you to let them go?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 01/12/2008 04:04:57 Insurance only pays out around 10-15% of the value of most T2 ships. I think the reason most people don't pay ransoms is because there's so many people out there that don't honor them - even if their T2 was 10x as expensive they wouldn't pay anyway because to them it's a better-than-even chance they'll just get exploded anyway. You can't expect your marks to keep track who's an honorable thief and who's not - it's not a distinction most people recognize. if only we could somehow pull over money back if the ransom wasn't honored... you know like a company ripping you off with your credit card.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:20:00 - [26] its only common belief amongst noobs, who don't have the isk to pay anyway Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway
Shacksman Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:53:00 - [27] 425mm rail gun II 20 mil cap recharger II 20 mil criuse missile launcher II 20 mil covert cloak 50-100 mil local hull cargo expander 20 mil hacs 150-350 mil ??? remember those days ? i like the way the market is now days its mutch easier for newer players and hard core pvp'rs
Tal Kjelthorne Kjelthorne Industries	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 01/12/2008 04:04:57 Insurance only pays out around 10-15% of the value of most T2 ships. I think the reason most people don't pay ransoms is because there's so many people out there that don't honor them - even if their T2 was 10x as expensive they wouldn't pay anyway because to them it's a better-than-even chance they'll just get exploded anyway. You can't expect your marks to keep track who's an honorable thief and who's not - it's not a distinction most people recognize. I've been fortunate to have not encountered anyone who didn't honor a ransom in my early days. That said, I wouldn't pay ransom anymore. I fly T2 frigates, at worst 30M in damages. I'll fight to the end now. I have met some really bad folks though who make themselves known as "don't care about ransom, I'll shoot you anyway" types (not naming names). I stay out of their stalking areas as much as I can.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:28:00 - [29] price fixing the t2 market would have hilarious side consequences for the high-end moon market and the backbone of 0.0 gameplay but don't worry about that, it's all about you. let's talk about you. -- i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis By which I mean T2 fittings. Is the value of the loot you can expect to get from a PvP victory too low compared to the amount of ISK you can expect to lose by risking your T2 hull? Failed at understanding Economics and PvP Troll fails to understand economics and PvP. Play nice while you butcher each other.

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