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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:16:00 - [481] Originally by: SecHaul Originally by: Goumindong Plates are applicable on every size of ship in the game. An 800mm plate more than doubles the size of any cruisers armor. A 400mm plate is over a 50% increase in hit points for a maller. Once again, you do not read. The original fit had a single 1600mm plate on it, you replied that adding more plates is more effective. Please find a cruiser than can fit 2x plates, where one a is a 1600mm plate, that isn't a completely gimped doing it. Secondly, your EANM calculation only consider T1 hulls, what about T2 hulls where base resistances are that much higher? In this scenario, EANMs are not more effective than specific hardeners to close resistance holes. And the flying of T2 hulls in EVE remains fairly significant. Did you not bother to read anything I wrote? The cruiser is out of slots by the time its efficient to fit specific hardeners. Whether or not it has a 1600mm plate on it. Re: T2 high base resistances do not have an effect on the optimal tanking considerations by pure efficiency. They have an effect to disadvantage hull resistances and advantage repair based tanks. And yea, EM is a pretty good damage type against t2 ships, right up there with EX[thermal and kinetic being the worse]
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:18:00 - [482] Originally by: Chi Quan and what on earth do eanms have to do with missing tracking on blasters? Blasters are not missing tracking. This was shown pretty well in the thread. They also have a high amount of utility slots and high agility and speed to be most efficient in close range.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:34:00 - [483] Originally by: Goumindong They also have a high amount of utility slots and high agility and speed to be most efficient in close range. A insignificantly greater agility and speed compared to the other BS considering that BS are the largest, slowest and least agile conventional ships. For some reason amarr skilled players seem to want us to believe that cos the hyperion has a extra mid slot that blaster BS should be zipping around solo like interceptors catching and killing any ship they come across without any support...... Lasers are way overpowered as far as short range BS weapons are concerned due to the fact that the BS themselves are not maneuverable nor do they have other necessarily attributes like lock speed ...ect ect to be effective without support.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 12:56:00 - [484] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/12/2008 12:57:02 Rails, Beams, and Artillery have an even better "range/dps" ratio. Does that make them overpowered? You don't think BS can be used in small gangs or solo. That is fine, but don't complain that the tools that are there for that are bad at doing things they were not meant to do. Train rails, you'll be fine.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:08:00 - [485] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 13:16:19 Originally by: Goumindong Rails, Beams, and Artillery have an even better "range/dps" ratio. Does that make them overpowered? They have range/dps ratios relative to each other although im sure a case could be made that arties need a little love compared to beams and rails. Pulse on the other hand at least match and in most cases outclass AC and Blasters at every range while also having available ranges outside all others, and as such make the short range BS weapon systems in real need of balancing.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:14:00 - [486] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 14:40:00 Originally by: Goumindong Rails, Beams, and Artillery have an even better "range/dps" ratio. Does that make them overpowered? They have range/dps ratios relative to each other And that matters because? If you define the strength of a ship as its ability to perform in a gang via range/DPS/EHP numbers then long range weapons win out every time. If you define the strength of a ship as its ability to perform on the whole, then that is the only time where you an logically deviate from the best range/DPS/EHP figures in your estimation of the strengths of the ships. You are taking middle gang ships and comparing them to small and solo ships. At the same time, you're ignoring the options that those solo/small gang ships have to operate in middle gangs. When it suits you, you declare Amarr the best because their short range weapons perform more like long range weapons. Then when it suits you, you declare long range weapons to be not part of the question because you want to define on the other metric. Its bull****, you get one or the other. You either look at how strong all the other long range options are and, if there are any deficiencies you fix those(and there probably is, primarily in the Maelstrom, though its slight]. Or you look at how strong the ships are when taking into account all their secondary attributes and the effect that has. I'll tell you right now what the best gang ship in the game is, its the Rokh. It uses railguns. If you're blaster spec'd its even easier to train into than the laser ships.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:09:00 - [487] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 17:17:16 Originally by: Goumindong If you define the strength of a ship as its ability to perform in a gang via range/DPS/EHP numbers then long range weapons win out every time. We are balancing short range BS weapon systems, you are trying to confuse the issue. Long range systems are not under the microscope at the moment, if you want to discuss them start another thread. Originally by: Goumindong You are taking middle gang ships and comparing them to small and solo ships. No we are talking about BS short range weapon systems and you are trying to assign roles to the BS they fit on to try and defend your overpowered system. But the fact is those roles are utterly bogus cos BS are not interceptors or HAC's they are the biggest and slowest conventional ships in the game, they are DPS platforms and pulse are way overpowered compared to ALL other comparative systems. Originally by: Goumindong When it suits you, you declare Amarr the best because their short range weapons perform more like long range weapons. No we are not saying anything when it suits us we are pointing out that amarr have a overpowered system because it matches and out classes all others at their ranges while also having 0 contenders at ranges the others cannot reach. NANO was more balanced pre nerf with other tanks that BS pulse lasers are with AC and Blasters.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:53:00 - [488] Originally by: maralt Pulse on the other hand at least match and in most cases outclass AC and Blasters at every range while also having available ranges outside all others, and as such make the short range BS weapon systems in real need of balancing. At every range? You're forgetting tracking and with web nerf it's even worse for pulses in general. How deep are you going to dig that grave of yours? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:06:00 - [489] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 18:17:15 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer At every range? Amarr virtually match all from from 5km onwards, outclass all other systems after 10-14km, while having no contenders at longer ranges at all. Did you think that just because the thread had moved on a little that the graphs posted would be ignored?. Its you who should learn wtf your talking about.....oh look your amarr....... Oh and with a effective range of 5-60km the web nerf is hardly a problem now is it...is that really the best you can come up with?......mr amarr.....
Chi Quan Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:52:00 - [490] Originally by: Goumindong Blasters are not missing tracking. This was shown pretty well in the thread. where exactly? i seem to have missed it. Originally by: Goumindong They also have a high amount of utility slots... really? lets see: 1 utility high on the mega 0 utility highs on the hype 0 utility highs on the brutix 0 utility highs on the thorax 1 utility high on the deimos 0 utility highs on the vigiliant 1 utility high on the enyo (yay for a utility high on a frig, THAT is indeed decisive) 0 utility highs on the astarde man i must suck at eve really hard, it seems i forgot a whole rack of blasterships with utility high slots. Originally by: Goumindong ...and high agility and speed to be most efficient in close range. i wouldn't use the terms speed and agility when talking about BS, but ok, let's see: agility (unmodiffied) mega ; hype ; geddon ; apoc ; abbadon ; mael ; pest ; raven ; rokh 0,11 ; 0,11 ; 0,11 ; 0,12 ; 0,12 ; 0,12 ; 0,105 ; 0,11 ;0,115 but since noone can really do something with these numbers, let's compare the time to warp mega ; hype ; geddon ; apoc ; abbadon ; mael ; pest ; raven ; rokh 15,4 ; 15,7 ; 16,5 ; 16,6 ; 17,6 ; 17,7 ; 15,5 ; 15,6 ; 17,3 wow, look at that, those bs must be turning on a dime. add a plate here and there and watch them become even more agile. for the record: prophecy ; drake ; brutix ; cyclone ; hurricane 0,615 ; 0,55 ; 0,615 ; 0,615 ; 0,615 ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:02:00 - [491] Originally by: Chi Quan where exactly? i seem to have missed it. Blasters have the best tracking of any weapons system aside from low tier ACs where the difference is negligible. One of the ships in question has a tracking bonus on top of the best tracking of any weapons system Quote: man i must suck at eve really hard, it seems i forgot a whole rack of blasterships with utility high slots. Well, besides that we were talking about utility slots and not utility high slots. And besides the fact that you looked a bunch of sub BS which aren't in question[and don't seem to have much of a problem, except maybe the Deimos(but it just got stealth boosted, so) You have the Hyperion, 5 meds. You have the Dominix, 5 meds, 6 high[blaster bonuses, but with the drone bonus they count]. YOu have the Megathron, 1 utility high. compared to the Geddon which trades its 1 utility high slot which is damned harder to fit than any on the Mega, Domi, or Hyp, for only having 3 meds. Quote: wow, look at that, those bs must be turning on a dime. add a plate here and there and watch them become even more agile. There are two factors to a ships agility in real terms. 1. Its agility 2. Its speed 3. Its mass Agility in eve is a set number that tells you how long it takes to accelerate to your maximum speed. This acceleration curve is a constant against your maximum speed. This means that if your ship gets faster, it is more agile when talking about everything but warping. So look not only at align times with your base 11.3% advantage[Hyp/Abaddon, eft is giving me 15.9 on the Hyp for agility w/mwd, not 15.4], but also the maximum speed advantage of 25.72%. These combine to make the Hyperion roughly 40% more agile in real terms(Getting to a speed that is 25% farther along 11% faster than the other guy) Originally by: maralt We are balancing short range BS weapon systems, you are trying to confuse the issue. Long range systems are not under the microscope at the moment, if you want to discuss them start another thread. No, i am not trying to confuse anything. You are. The issue is how effective the ships are. You define "effectiveness" as "what is best in a gang" and then ignore the damned weapons that are supposed to be used in a gang. Quote: But the fact is those roles are utterly bogus cos BS [...] they are DPS platforms and pulse are way overpowered compared to ALL other comparative systems. Just because something is not a dedicated tackler does not mean that it is not intended to be flown solo or in small gangs. Hac's aren't good at tackling either with the exception of the vagabond. Quote: No we are not saying anything when it suits us we are pointing out that amarr have a overpowered system because it matches and out classes all others at their ranges while also having 0 contenders at ranges the others cannot reach. So you're saying railguns are overpowered? Because it "matches and out classes all others at their ranges while also having 0 contends at ranges the others cannot reach" when you ignore Artillery and Beams. Pulse compete in the middle ranges against railguns, artillery, and beams. Quote: Long range systems are NOT part of the question You're considering pulse lasers are you not? Pulse lasers w/ scorch 45+10km. 425 rail w/ CN antimatter 30+30... Originally by: maralt Amarr virtually match all from from 5km onwards, outclass all other systems after 10-14km, while having no contenders at longer ranges at all. Did you think that just because the thread had moved on a little that the graphs posted would be ignored?. Until the slight blip at 10km that you're never going to get[because ships do not slow down instantly] you lose about as much DPS under 10km against the other systems as they lose against pulse to about 35km.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:14:00 - [492] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 20:14:44 Originally by: Goumindong So you're saying railguns are overpowered? Because it "matches and out classes all others at their ranges while also having 0 contends at ranges the others cannot reach" when you ignore Artillery and Beams. Why would you ignore arties and beams they are part of the long range gunnery systems in eve?. Long range gunnery systems = Arties, rails, beams. Now apart from arties needing a bit of love these systems are reasonably balanced with each other. Short range gunnery systems = Ac, blasters, pulse. These systems are way out of balance as lasers are way overpowered.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:18:00 - [493] Also, your BC agility numbers are missing. For ref: 10.9 is harbinger with an MWD and no plate and it goes 1138 m/s. The Hyperion was at 996 and 15.9 In fact, lets list the BC's in order of speed and agility and then go up to BS Cyclone/Hurricane: 1311/10.4 Prophecy/Harbinger: 1138/10.9 Brutix/Myrmidon: 1112/10.8 Ferox/Drake: 1038/10.1 Tempest: 1067/15.5 Hyperion: 966/15.9 Abaddon: 792/17.7 But wait, battlecruisers have less mass which means they are affected by plates more. Lets add a 1600rt and see what happens Harbinger: 1015/12.6 Tempest: (1) 1051/15.8 (2) 1036/16 Hyperion: (1) 980/16.2 (2)965/16.5 Abaddon: (1)780/18 (2)768/18.3 Now granted you should probably never have 2 plates on a Hyperion. But it does give us some interesting numbers. As it currently stands, a Hyperion is barely slower than a plated Battlecruiser. A mere 28.5% agility! But it gets better. A Hyperion is only 3.5% slower than the battlecruiser. This means that A Hyperion is closer in agility and speed to a plated battlecruiser than it is an Abaddon with zero plates. In fact its still true if the Hyperion has a plate and the Abaddon has none. And its almost still true if the Hyperion has two plates and the Abaddon has none. For complete hilarity rig the Abaddon[sub 700m/s!]
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:19:00 - [494] Originally by: maralt Why would you ignore arties and beams they are part of the long range gunnery systems in eve?. I don't know, why are you ignoring artillery, rails and beams when they're part of the gang DPS gunnery systems in eve?
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:22:00 - [495] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 20:23:01 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: maralt Why would you ignore arties and beams they are part of the long range gunnery systems in eve?. I don't know, why are you ignoring artillery, rails and beams when they're part of the gang DPS gunnery systems in eve? I am not in fact id encourage sechaul to make a graph comparing beams, arties and rails so we can see if they as imbalanced as pulse, AC and blasters are..... I seem to remember beams being more effective than rails tbh, but i will wait for the graphs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:31:00 - [496] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/12/2008 20:31:29 Originally by: maralt I am not in fact id encourage sechaul to make a graph comparing beams, arties and rails so we can see if they as imbalanced as pulse, AC and blasters are..... I seem to remember beams being more effective than rails tbh, but i will wait for the graphs. Why aren't pulses on this new hypothetical graph? edit: Oh, and you are ignoring them as they relate to blasters, AC and pulse.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 20:32:00 - [497] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 20:33:47 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: maralt I am not in fact id encourage sechaul to make a graph comparing beams, arties and rails so we can see if they as imbalanced as pulse, AC and blasters are..... I seem to remember beams being more effective than rails tbh, but i will wait for the graphs. Why aren't pulses on this new hypothetical graph? Because they are a short range system as well you know. PS: While we are waiting please go on more about how pulse are great at 45+km (rail range apparently) while they can also match and out dmg blasters at 5-15km.....a better argument for pulse being overpowered i have yet to see.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:45:00 - [498] Originally by: maralt Because they are a short range system as well you know. This is an arbitrary distinction created by you, in order to compare weapons against their purposes. Quote: while they can also match and out dmg blasters at 5-15km See, now you're just making **** up.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:53:00 - [499] Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 21:54:12 Originally by: Goumindong This is an arbitrary distinction created by you, in order to compare weapons against their purposes. Nope its a accepted fact, your the one giving out stupid and unfeasible roles to BS in a rather feeble and utterly transparant attempt to justify your overpowered weapon system. Originally by: Goumindong See, now you're just making **** up. Maybe you should check those graphs you tried so hard and failed so miserably to discredit.
SecHaul	Posted - 2008.12.15 22:39:00 - [500] Edited by: SecHaul on 15/12/2008 22:40:49 shrug This thread has derailed. There is obviously a lot of data and information to consider when evaluating ships, and Marn has already done a lot of evaluation on these aspects in the threads linked around page 6 (I believe). However, the consistent argument about the weaknesses of the pulse weapon system are: 1) Tracking. The issue with tracking is that transversal is not always part of the equation. Either the ship is not moving significantly in relation to your movement, or more likely, the ship is webbed. As gang size increases, so this weakness is massively reduced. 2) Damage. Lasers are limited to EM / TH in varying degrees. Blasters are limited to KI / TH in varying degrees. For armor tanked ships, this is a negative, but the dramatic loss of range for blasters means lasers still operate better beyond 20km, and I believe the number was 14km. 3) Cap usage. Blasters also use cap, so cap boosters are required. AC's don't use cap. All ships have different capacitors. 4) Mid slots lacking (not weapons specific but commonly noted). Missing mid-slots is a weakness, but as gang size increases, so this weakness is also removed. Now the strength of lasers are their high DPS output, and their massive range. Optimal is 45 vs 11 (4x for blasters), or 45 vs 6 (8x for autocannons). In addition, there are no modules to increase falloff (there are rigs), however there are both mid and low slot modules to boost optimal, meaning the most benefit is obtained for lasers. Tracking Disruptor modules however impact both optimal and falloff, meaning falloff related modules have no effective counter to TD's. The tracking difference however is: 0.0316 (lasers) 0.0558 (blasters on Mega) 0.0405 (autocannons) Blasters have 1/4 of the optimal, and have 75% more tracking. Autocannons have 1/8 of the optimal, and have 28% more tracking. I understand the weaknesses and strengths. I also believe that all battleships have a role. However, due to the change in webs, the roles of close range battleships have received a huge nerf, and they now require fleet support. The purpose of fleet support is purely to boost tracking, either via application of webs, target painters, etc., all mid-slot items. The result of this fleet support is that it is duplicating close range battleship strengths, and adding no new strengths, quickly making close range battleships redundant in their use as a weapons platform. However, it's directly mitigating Amarr lasers weaknesses, and leaves Amarr with it's unique strengths of exceptionally superior range.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.16 00:51:00 - [501] I like how everyone elses the abaddon for the amarr dps graphs and ignore the fact that it eats up 55 cap a second with two damage mods. For comparison, a mega with neutrons and 2 magstabs uses 20. You can run a freaking large armor repper off the difference!
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.12.16 08:06:00 - [502] Originally by: Gamesguy I like how everyone elses the abaddon for the amarr dps graphs and ignore the fact that it eats up 55 cap a second with two damage mods. For comparison, a mega with neutrons and 2 magstabs uses 20. You can run a freaking large armor repper off the difference! Yeah, one definitely should use a Geddon for comparison with Mega. Both have the same drones, similar (about 6% worse) EHP, about same mobility (3.6% less speed, 6% less agility with two plates each IIRC), about same (2.8% better) gun DPS. Geddon lacks web but has twice to three times the effective range, worse tracking. Both need cap boosters to run their guns - Geddon does need more of them, but it has more free cargo space for them. My view: Mega is better for solo (and BS soloing is dead) and station camping, Geddon is better in pretty much every other situation. -- Gradient forum
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.12.16 10:31:00 - [503] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Chi Quan and what on earth do eanms have to do with missing tracking on blasters? Blasters are not missing tracking. This was shown pretty well in the thread. They also have a high amount of utility slots and high agility and speed to be most efficient in close range. well then pulses have too much tracking compared to their effective range ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.16 10:34:00 - [504] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/12/2008 10:36:29 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/12/2008 10:36:12 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 15/12/2008 18:17:15 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer At every range? Amarr virtually match all from from 5km onwards, outclass all other systems after 10-14km, while having no contenders at longer ranges at all. Did you think that just because the thread had moved on a little that the graphs posted would be ignored?. Its you who should learn wtf your talking about.....oh look your amarr....... Oh and with a effective range of 5-60km the web nerf is hardly a problem now is it...is that really the best you can come up with?......mr amarr..... Uhm. Let's see: Small pulses operate up to 13km generally. Compare it with small rails that can operate up to 50km where no other small turrets reach. With your logic these small rails are OP compared to small pulses when in fact they only have different areas of use. You'll now say "But the pulses have more dps and tracking", well blasters have more dps and tracking compared to pulses. Weapon range is not split up in two, this is where you're going wrong. Weapon ranges are split up in SIX: range min to max: blasters, Acs, pulses, beams, arties, rails. dps min to max: rails, arties, beams, pulses, acs, blasters. tracking min to max: rails, arties, beams, pulses, acs, blasters. I'm not sure how else to explain this, it is really simple. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.16 10:48:00 - [505] Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 10:51:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm. Let's see: Small pulses operate up to 13km generally. Compare it with small rails that can operate up to 50km where no other small turrets reach. You'll now say "But the pulses have more dps and tracking", well blasters have more dps and tracking compared to pulses. No i would say beams are the system to balance rails with, but then you know that already your just trying to involve long range systems to try and hide the overpoweredness of pulse compared to its peers (AC and Blasters).
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.16 11:10:00 - [506] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 10:51:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm. Let's see: Small pulses operate up to 13km generally. Compare it with small rails that can operate up to 50km where no other small turrets reach. You'll now say "But the pulses have more dps and tracking", well blasters have more dps and tracking compared to pulses. No i would say beams are the system to balance rails with, but then you know that already your just trying to involve long range systems to try and hide the overpoweredness of pulse compared to its peers (AC and Blasters). Now you're just talking rubbish. You are saying that the group of beams, arties and rails should have nothing to do with blasters, acs, pulses when it comes to balancing. Wich is obviously pretty fail. You have to include the whole range of weaponry from blasters to rails for the weapon balance. Oh and besides, if you're so hot on comparing beams with rails I apply your faulty logic to that system aswell: Originally by: maralt Pulse on the other hand at least match and in most cases outclass AC and Blasters at every range while also having available ranges outside all others, and as such make the short range BS weapon systems in real need of balancing. "Rails on the other hand atleast match and in most cases outclass arties and beams at every range while also having available ranges outside all others, and as such make the short range weapon systems in real need of balancing. " Ok boost beams. In short: Keep digging. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.16 11:14:00 - [507] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Chi Quan and what on earth do eanms have to do with missing tracking on blasters? Blasters are not missing tracking. This was shown pretty well in the thread. They also have a high amount of utility slots and high agility and speed to be most efficient in close range. well then pulses have too much tracking compared to their effective range ... The difference is only small and it is quite fine considering pulses go on ships with mid slot gimpage, using high cap, high fitting and limited dmg type. Again: LATERAL balance data is important. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.16 11:16:00 - [508] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer "Rails on the other hand at least match and in most cases outclass arties and beams at every range while also having available ranges outside all others, and as such make the short range weapon systems in real need of balancing. " I think you will find that the available range and dps of beams and rails are quite balanced although arties need a bit of love tbh. You should really stop posting and let ppl who are less EMO about things try and manipulate the figures, it wont work but at least it would stop you looking like a fool.
Gods Coldblood Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.16 11:23:00 - [509] Well since QR hit us all, i havent been pvping. Two days ago or so i decided it was time at least to go on and play the game i have come to love.. I decided to go out in a hyperion in low sec and see if i stilll had the skill i used too, pre-patch.. All i can say is LMAO, QR is no way near as bad as most of you are making out.. I've killed bc's, cruiser's, many bs's, and busted gate camps on my own.. Sorry CCP, for saying some harsh things before in some of my posts.. You have made fights have more drama and i can actually say this has improved my eve experience. Regards Coldblood ___________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Gladiator
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.16 12:29:00 - [510] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/12/2008 12:31:09 Originally by: Gods Coldblood Well since QR hit us all, i havent been pvping. Two days ago or so i decided it was time at least to go on and play the game i have come to love.. I decided to go out in a hyperion in low sec and see if i stilll had the skill i used too, pre-patch.. All i can say is LMAO, QR is no way near as bad as most of you are making out.. I've killed bc's, cruiser's, many bs's, and busted gate camps on my own.. Sorry CCP, for saying some harsh things before in some of my posts.. You have made fights have more drama and i can actually say this has improved my eve experience. Regards Coldblood QFT. Most of these whiners in these threads are whining because they suck (and haven't even actually tried the new mechanics on tranq and are living in eft and sisi eventhough ironically they are accusing others of doing that). They are going on about how they will cross train to something else and start owning. Truth is crosstraining won't change anything at all. The people who crosstrain will still have the same kill stats as before, they won't have more solo kills and they won't be owning anything that they didn't before either. These threads and the whiners in them are here for two reasons: 1. To overpower their race. 2. Whining because they suck and need to blame something. You can tell this by the redicilously narrow viewed "balance" discussions and exaggerated and faulty statistical data. Some people think just because you make a graph that it has something to do with truth and science, when in fact statistics and graphs can prove ANYTHING you like as long you are ready to manipulate them and there is alot of that going on here in this section. All I can say is that it's great that ccp does not work with data like that for balancing. /Lyria ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story

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