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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 12:39:00 -
[511]
Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 12:46:32
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
These threads and the whiners in them are here for two reasons:
1. To overpower their race. 2. Whining because they suck and need to blame something.
Highly amusing comment considering how often your name appears in nerf threads all over the forum...
But i suppose the nerfs you support (non amarr i notice) are all non whine, proper balancing threads....blah blah....
Personally to balance things out i would put tracking on pulse to around the same as 425mm rail guns for starters.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:07:00 -
[512]
Originally by: maralt
Personally to balance things out i would put tracking on pulse to around the same as 425mm rail guns at least for starters.
Could you humor us by revealing the "math" and data for justifying 425mm rails to have around the same tracking as pulses? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 15:16:00 -
[513]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: maralt
Personally to balance things out i would put tracking on pulse to around the same as 425mm rail guns at least for starters.
Could you humor us by revealing the "math" and data for justifying 425mm rails to have around the same tracking as pulses?
Actually i said reducing the tracking on pulse to be closer to the tracking on 425mm rails not increasing rails tracking to be like pulse.
You really should read more carefully, i know its hard when you have all that emo rage swirling around cos this is about balancing your overpowered system but take deep breaths and im sure you can manage it.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:19:00 -
[514]
Originally by: maralt
Personally to balance things out i would put tracking on pulse to around the same as 425mm rail guns at least for starters.
Which is reasonable as soon as pulse ships start shooting at 190+30km.
Shorter range = Better tracking
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:26:00 -
[515]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt
Personally to balance things out i would put tracking on pulse to around the same as 425mm rail guns at least for starters.
Which is reasonable as soon as pulse ships start shooting at 190+30km.
Shorter range = Better tracking
So now these gang rail megas you two clowns preached about need to fit tracking comps to be effective?.
Strange how you seemed to think the tracking is ok for rails at closer range when you were trying to compare them to pulse........................
You really are biased and a very poor troll to have walked right into that one.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:33:00 -
[516]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/12/2008 16:35:19 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/12/2008 16:34:25
Originally by: maralt
Actually i said reducing the tracking on pulse to be closer to the tracking on 425mm rails not increasing rails tracking to be like pulse.
You really should read more carefully, i know its hard when you have all that emo rage swirling around cos this is about balancing your overpowered system but take deep breaths and im sure you can manage it.
1. You do know that saying:
"rails to have near pulse tracking" or "pulses to have near rail tracking" does not reveal wich of the items you are actually changing to get them closer to eachother. L2Grammar. So answer the question: Why do you think this should be. Humor us.
2. Actually a gang of rail eagle can pretty much bbq people just like a gang of pulses. You just have no clue because you're living in eft and on sisi.
3. The amount of smileys in your posts are not helping to prove you're correct, it's rather the opposite. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:39:00 -
[517]
Originally by: maralt
So now these gang rail megas you two clowns preached about in this very thread to be comparable to pulse need to fit tracking comps to be effective?
No. Tracking is less important the farther you get from your target. Tracking differences enforce other maxims. Its this difference that enforces pulses are better on the smaller side of the medium sized gang and that rails, arties and beams are better on the larger side.
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:40:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
1. You do know that saying:
It was perfectly clear your either a fool or a troll, hmm actually both tbh.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Actually a gang of rail eagle can pretty much bbq people just like a gang of pulses. You just have no clue because you're living in eft and on sisi.
1. We are discussing BS sized weapons, and especially the overpowered pulse not medium sized. Another crappy attempt to go off topic.....
2. I have several thousand kills in all forms of pvp and need no instruction from you or anybody else on what i am talking about.
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 16:42:00 -
[519]
Originally by: Goumindong blah blah i posted my crap before i thought about what i had already tried to spin to avoid my overpowered pulse getting balanced.
Fixed.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:10:00 -
[520]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Goumindong blah blah i posted my crap before i thought about what i had already tried to spin to avoid my overpowered pulse getting balanced.
Fixed.
Troll. I think we are done talking to you. GL in eve, you'll need it. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:11:00 -
[521]
Originally by: maralt .
2. I have several thousand kills in all forms of pvp and need no instruction from you or anybody else on what i am talking about.
Show me how many are solo kills. Where your skill actually matters. Link em cutie. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:17:00 -
[522]
Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 17:21:59
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Show me how many are solo kills. Where your skill actually matters.
You think it takes skill to get solo kills?.
Here is a clue pal, solo pvp is not much more than simple math.
I can jump in a solo gank ship and pretty much know exactly what i can and cannot beat as i travel around so the only skill involved is target choice. Now and again i may come across a ship with a funky fit but eve ship fits are so standardized nowadays its rare you come across summat that can surprise me.
If your rep was built on solo kills it is worth next to nothing.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:21:00 -
[523]
Edited by: Chi Quan on 16/12/2008 18:24:28 sorry for the yellow color, forums said something about pyramid quoting, they are all quotes from Goumindong Blasters have the best tracking of any weapons system aside from low tier ACs where the difference is negligible. One of the ships in question has a tracking bonus on top of the best tracking of any weapons system
and yet fails to deal damage properly at at its designed combat range, as the comparison charts show. Well, besides that we were talking about utility slots and not utility high slots. And besides the fact that you looked a bunch of sub BS which aren't in question.
fine, define utility slots please. subBS were included for sufficiency. You have the Hyperion, 5 meds.
according to your own words, that 5. med is for a second web, which is indeed terribly needed to make up for the inability to track with blasters. You have the Dominix, 5 meds, 6 high[blaster bonuses, but with the drone bonus they count]
the domi is a droneboat (you want that in capitals?)
You have the Megathron, 1 utility high.
yes, mentioned already. whoo! bad mega! bad mega! let go of the utility high!
compared to the Geddon which trades its 1 utility high slot which is damned harder to fit than any on the Mega, Domi, or Hyp, for only having 3 meds what does it trade "damed harder" for? the ability to not need any form of tracking equipment along with the ability to outdamage everything else? a small price to pay and what do you want to put in that high that does not fit? siege weapons? sorry, no at least one thing you should not get. what exactly does the geddon lack that the others have? (don't say extra mid as you would make me laugh)
Quote: wow, look at that, those bs must be turning on a dime. add a plate here and there and watch them become even more agile.
you don't get irony
These combine to make the Hyperion roughly 40% more agile in real terms(Getting to a speed that is 25% farther along 11% faster than the other guy)
how do you get your 40% more agile? because 11.3% + 25.72% is nearly 40%? your math is flawed. you explained it yourself. what other ship needs to storm-charge? while doing so it uses up a big portion of cap (already mentioned here numerous times), has to get closer than everything else and can only receive fire. the numbers may sound fine relatively to each other, have you looked at the geddon/rapier example? it seems not you basically say that someone who owns 140isk is whooping 40% richer than someone with 100 isk. newsflash: both are poor. stop nitpicking. Just because something is not a dedicated tackler does not mean that it is not intended to be flown solo or in small gangs. Hac's aren't good at tackling either with the exception of the vagabond.
trivia, what do vagas have to do with blasters?
Pulse compete in the middle ranges against railguns, artillery, and beams.
are pulses no longer close range weapons? what are beams than? how come pulses have near blaster effectiveness at close range than? they also outperform rails with short range ammo at what you call medium ranges. thank you for once again pointing out that pulses are just too good now. Until the slight blip at 10km that you're never going to get[because ships do not slow down instantly] you lose about as much DPS under 10km against the other systems as they lose against pulse to about 35km.
switching crystals is almost instantaneous, you can very well use short range crystals when someone gets out of your long range optimal. that slowing down part is equal for all bs. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:26:00 -
[524]
Edited by: Chi Quan on 16/12/2008 18:27:08
Originally by: SecHaul Blasters have 1/4 of the optimal, and have 75% more tracking. Autocannons have 1/8 of the optimal, and have 28% more tracking.
if someone would make a graph of f(speed,agility)->max orbit velocity, one would see that the range drop does not scale properly with the tracking increase.
Originally by: Goumindong You define "effectiveness" as "what is best in a gang" and then ignore the damned weapons that are supposed to be used in a gang.
if you mean that gang weapons are pulses, rails, arties and beams, than that once again shows how good pulses are, as obviously they can be used in gang as well as close quarters. you also marvelosly deducted that solo warfare is dead. CONGRATULATIONS ! conseqently it means that the very tools uses for solo warfare are now without a purpose. in eglish: blaster ships lack a role and purpose now. this lack is caused by their inability to properly deal damage at their own combat range and medium range, mostly because of tracking issues. the later part would have been acceptable (and was since the beginning of the blastership concept) if it wasn't for the first part.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Small pulses operate up to 13km generally. Compare it with small rails that can operate up to 50km where no other small turrets reach. With your logic these small rails are OP compared to small pulses when in fact they only have different areas of use. You'll now say "But the pulses have more dps and tracking", well blasters have more dps and tracking compared to pulses.
don't jump between the refferences here, you can not switch rails and blasters in mid fight. if you fit pulses you have a system that is effective at both long and short range. for the record: best t2 small rails (150) have a range of 32+7,5 with long range ammo (not 50). beams(called medium even though they are not a cruiser weapon, but that's OT) have 27+5, pulses(medium again) 11+2,5 and light neutron blasters 2,8+3,9. so? does any (sane) bs fit include small guns? lets get some more off topic: i didn't like the weather today, how about you guys? ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:39:00 -
[525]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/12/2008 18:39:10
Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 17:21:59
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Show me how many are solo kills. Where your skill actually matters.
You think it takes skill to get solo kills?.
Here is a clue pal, solo pvp is not much more than simple math.
I can jump in a solo gank ship and pretty much know exactly what i can and cannot beat as i travel around so the only skill involved is target choice. Now and again i may come across a ship with a funky fit but eve ship fits are so standardized nowadays its rare you come across summat that can surprise me.
If your rep was built on solo kills it is worth next to nothing.
In short: You can't put your money where your mouth is and that sure is alot of words for wanting to say "I got nothing to show". ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:44:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Chi Quan
don't jump between the refferences here, you can not switch rails and blasters in mid fight. if you fit pulses you have a system that is effective at both long and short range. for the record: best t2 small rails (150) have a range of 32+7,5 with long range ammo (not 50). beams(called medium even though they are not a cruiser weapon, but that's OT) have 27+5, pulses(medium again) 11+2,5 and light neutron blasters 2,8+3,9. so? does any (sane) bs fit include small guns? lets get some more off topic: i didn't like the weather today, how about you guys?
1. If I fit pulses I have a system effective at short and long range? I can hit up to rail range? I can't. What is your point again? Ah yes, derailing because of lack of arguments.
2. He said pulses hit 60km and they only do that on bonused ships. Why should he be able to use bonused data while I cannot to prove my point? My point still stands between pulses and rails and beams even without the bonuses.
3. What does the balance between blasters, acs, pulses, beams, arties and rails have to do with you not being able to switch turrets in mid fight? Nothing. You're argument is that the difference between shortest and longest range of pulses are longer then blasters? Yes they are but rails have larger difference between their min and max range with different ammo aswell. Does this mean you have again no agument to stand on? Yes.
4. Are we done here soon? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:47:00 -
[527]
Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 18:55:16
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Solo kills, Where your skill actually matters.
Anybody who knows pvp in eve is now laughing at you.
Unless you are gonna try pitching that you were referring to target selection when you said skill......
Do you not think you have made a big enough fool of yourself in this thread already?.
PULSE ARE OP AND ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:49:00 -
[528]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Solo kills, Where your skill actually matters.
Anybody who knows pvp in eve is now laughing at you.
Unless you are gonna try pitching that you were referring to target selection when you said skill......
Do you not think you have made a big enough fool of yourself in this thread already?.
So you are a better pilot in fleets yes? That is what you are saying? I think we know is being laughed at atm tbh. You still have nothing to show, you're still trolling and talking absolute non sense. Oh the irony. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 18:55:00 -
[529]
Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 18:57:02
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So you are a better pilot in fleets yes?
Small- med gang vs gang combat is my preferred form of pvp, as that is where team work and actual skill are involved.
Solo is just a matter of correct target selection....noob.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You still have nothing to show, you're still trolling and talking absolute non sense. Oh the irony.
This from the person who derailed the thread trying to tell ppl that solo pvp is "Where your skill actually matters"...irony indeed.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:47:00 -
[530]
Originally by: maralt
So you think theres only solo or fleet pvp in eve?...noob.
Small - med gang vs gang combat is my preferred form of pvp, as that is where team work and actual skill are involved.
Solo is just a matter of correct target selection....noob.
Wait, so fleet and solo combat are not as much skill as small/med gang combat? Solo combat is just a matter of correct target selection and small gang combat is not? Fleet warfare is missing what element that makes it less skilled then your precious small gang combat? RR? EW? Tackle? Mobility? Everything is there. Is your grave 6 feet yet? Must be, but you're still digging aren't you? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.16 19:56:00 -
[531]
Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 19:57:08
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Wait, so fleet and solo combat are not as much skill as small/med gang combat?
Correct, that is why it is referred to as BLOBBING.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Solo combat is just a matter of correct target selection and small gang combat is not?
Two out of two, i think your actually learning.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Fleet warfare is missing what element that makes it less skilled then your precious small gang combat? RR? EW? Tackle? Mobility?
Fleet pvp or "blobbing" requires considerably less skill from each individual pilot within the blob and certainly less on a team work level.
Would you like to start another thread about it muppet or do you think that by ranting on about it here you will get the thread locked?.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:44:00 -
[532]
Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 20:04:49
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Wait, so fleet and solo combat are not as much skill as small/med gang combat?
Correct, that is why fleets are referred to as blobs and fleet warfare is referred to as BLOBBING and solo is just a matter of target selection.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Solo combat is just a matter of correct target selection and small gang combat is not?
Two out of two i think your actually learning.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Fleet warfare is missing what element that makes it less skilled then your precious small gang combat? RR? EW? Tackle? Mobility?
Fleet pvp or "blobbing" requires considerably less skill from each individual pilot within the blob and certainly less on a team work level.
Would you like to start another thread about it muppet or do you think that by ranting on about it here you will get the thread locked?.
Too bad you're not as good at pvp as you are at taking sentences out of context. I still can't see where you are explaining WHY your type of pvp is the one requiring most skill. Enlighten us. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Gamesguy
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.17 02:52:00 -
[533]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 17/12/2008 02:52:16
Quote: Correct, that is why fleets are referred to as blobs and fleet warfare is referred to as BLOBBING and solo is just a matter of target selection.
Gang pvp in which you are not the FC take far less skill than solo pvp. This is true whether its a 10 man gang or a 300 man gang.
When I was in tri we did small/medium gang pvp almost exclusively. Unless I'm FCing or scouting, I used to watch movies or browse the web on roams. This is especially true of gang pvp in battleships, you could probably program a bot to do it. At least in nanos you had to actually pilot your ship.
Solo pvp actually requires you to pay attention, although the actual shooting part isn't much different.
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:51:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Quote: Correct, that is why fleets are referred to as blobs and fleet warfare is referred to as BLOBBING and solo is just a matter of target selection.
Gang pvp in which you are not the FC take far less skill than solo pvp. This is true whether its a 10 man gang or a 300 man gang.
The gang pvp that i took and take part in rarely had what you would call a FC, we worked as a team communicating with each other and giving out relevant intel on what was occurring in the battle. From target selection to scout or scan duty everybody had a voice as long as it was relevant intel and could re assign a primary target or ewar if needed. Ppl communicated if they had been called primary so any logistic could be assigned to them along with them giving any intel about tacklers or problem ships that needed dealing with.
I ran a few small gangs like this while i was with tri to great success and while i was aware of a few FC's who had a dictator like attitude to leading a gang i found that sort of attitude counter productive when fighting outnumbered, and even more so now nano is gone.
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Jalif
Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2008.12.17 14:15:00 -
[535]
Originally by: maralt
But back on topic ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.
How about making amarr heavy (comeone, they have to carry all that gold) So less agility, speed for them but still have good firepower.
And yeah, and the balance... /me looks at BS sized AC's & Arties
CEO of Black Sinisters |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.17 16:23:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: maralt
But back on topic ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.
How about making amarr heavy (comeone, they have to carry all that gold) So less agility, speed for them but still have good firepower.
And yeah, and the balance... /me looks at BS sized AC's & Arties
Arties and AC need love but i think reducing the tracking on pulse to around rail gun level would allow them to still be effective at their longer ranges but also be less effective at closer ranges unless the target had considerably lower transversal.
It would certainly be a start to balancing out the syastems.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.17 17:26:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. If I fit pulses I have a system effective at short and long range? I can hit up to rail range? I can't. What is your point again? Ah yes, derailing because of lack of arguments.
2. He said pulses hit 60km and they only do that on bonused ships. Why should he be able to use bonused data while I cannot to prove my point? My point still stands between pulses and rails and beams even without the bonuses.
3. What does the balance between blasters, acs, pulses, beams, arties and rails have to do with you not being able to switch turrets in mid fight? Nothing. You're argument is that the difference between shortest and longest range of pulses are longer then blasters? Yes they are but rails have larger difference between their min and max range with different ammo aswell. Does this mean you have again no agument to stand on? Yes.
4. Are we done here soon?
1. careful what you wish for 0 velocity and 111m/sec velocity setup: red line -- single dual heavy pulse tech 2(lowest tier) on abbadon, all skills 5 green line -- single dual 150 railgun tech2(lowest tier) standard antimatter on hype, all skills 5 target: naked abbadon (except for the aforementioned pulse). it receives the same 5% per level to weapon damage as the hype
2. they do hit up to 60 (zero out at about 70 to be precise) Linkage same setup as above except i used t2 Mega Pulse
3. i man that if i want comparable range effectiveness with hybrids (while still laging quite a bit back, i should add), i would have to be able to switch between rails and blasters in midflight, like you are able to switch crystals in midflight.
4. nope ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.12.17 18:38:00 -
[538]
Edited by: Pohbis on 17/12/2008 18:40:09 TL;DR
Blasters still rule at short range.
Amarr is overpowered.
Missiles suck more than ever.
Was wondering where all Bellums blaster-whines went. I see someone shut him up wih facts and colorful graphs. Thanks SecHaul.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.17 19:32:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Pohbis TL;DR
yep, you really didn't. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Captator
Universal Securities Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.12.17 20:03:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 17/12/2008 18:40:09 TL;DR
Blasters still rule at short range.
Amarr is overpowered.
Missiles suck more than ever.
Was wondering where all Bellums blaster-whines went. I see someone shut him up wih facts and colorful graphs. Thanks SecHaul.
those graphs if you looked at them were supporting bellum's point.
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