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Kev Hunter	Posted - 2008.12.02 08:40:00 - [1] Has anyone maxed a mining director and had a hulk mine with strip miners to find out the mining cycle time? Assuming mining director is piloting an orca and has: Industrial Command Ships V Mining Director V Mining Foreman V Mining Foreman Mindlink All 3 Mining Foreman Links enabled in top slots. Is booster for the squad. Hulk miner is in the same squad. I'm curious to see how much the Orca helps vs. a bc fully fitted with mining director gear.
Satrani Destiva Just Another Indy Corp Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2008.12.02 09:36:00 - [2] I have all other relevent skills at 5 on both miner and squad booster but only have industrial command to 4 but to give an idea: Miner using hulk, T2 lasers amd T2 crystal no booster: Mining amount 883.83 speciality crystal mining amount 1546.71 Activation time 180 sec Same miner setup with BC booster: Mining amount 1016.41 Speciality crystal mining amount 1778.71 Activation time 139.5 sec Same miner setup with orca booster Mining amount 1016.41 Speciality crystal mining amount 1778.71 Activation time 134.64 sec I'd like to see other peoples amounts and times to see if there is any way to improve (other than indy command 5) -
Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 09:40:00 - [3] Hulk + Orca, with maxed out skills, will get you down to a cycle time of 133,43sec Hulk + EOS, cycle time of 139,5sec Hulk + Rorqual, Cycle time of 129,38 Dont forget that the gang skill"Warefare Link" also helps on the cycle time. ------- Ore & Ice Mining T1 & Capital & Rig Production POS Fueling and Reaction Minerals to Ore calculator
Satrani Destiva Just Another Indy Corp Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2008.12.02 09:42:00 - [4] My booster has warfare link 5 -
Jadin Lazarin Caldari Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.02 12:27:00 - [5] Satrani Destiva I am not sure I understand but how can a BC fitted with mining links be equal to the Orca fitted with mining links when the Orca has a ship bonus that increases the effectiveness of the links?
Kev Hunter	Posted - 2008.12.02 13:28:00 - [6] So... roughly 5 seconds shorter mining cycle time.. what a waste of 1 billion ISK. What a disappointment.
Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 13:31:00 - [7] Originally by: Jadin Lazarin Satrani Destiva I am not sure I understand but how can a BC fitted with mining links be equal to the Orca fitted with mining links when the Orca has a ship bonus that increases the effectiveness of the links? The Orca and Rorqual dont give you bonus to mining yield. They only boost the effect that the Mining forman skill effects the gang module "laser Optimizaton" with. Therefore only cycle time is effected by the Orca and Rorqual and not mining yield. ------- Ore & Ice Mining T1 & Capital & Rig Production POS Fueling and Reaction Minerals to Ore calculator
Moonbat Indabrane Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.02 13:45:00 - [8] Edited by: Moonbat Indabrane on 02/12/2008 13:48:34 Originally by: Kev Hunter So... roughly 5 seconds shorter mining cycle time.. what a waste of 1 billion ISK. What a disappointment. lol wut? edit: using the 3 mining foreman boosters we get a cap bonus, a range bonus and RoF bonus... this is a waste exactly how? twitch!
Morgan Lorus Caldari Unstable Reaction Inc. North Domain Defense Forces	Posted - 2008.12.02 13:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Dedaf Therefore only cycle time is effected by the Orca and Rorqual and not mining yield. How does cycletime not effect my yield? I think its a difference, if I mine 2635m¦ per minute instead of 1801m¦.
Dedaf Gallente United Brothers Of Eve Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 14:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Morgan Lorus Originally by: Dedaf Therefore only cycle time is effected by the Orca and Rorqual and not mining yield. How does cycletime not effect my yield? I think its a difference, if I mine 2635m¦ per minute instead of 1801m¦. Yes ofcause. But thats still not the mining yield for the laser, its the yield pr minut, and ofcause if you have a faster cycle time, then ofcause you will yield more pr minut. ------- Ore & Ice Mining T1 & Capital & Rig Production POS Fueling and Reaction Minerals to Ore calculator
Satrani Destiva Just Another Indy Corp Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2008.12.02 14:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Jadin Lazarin Satrani Destiva I am not sure I understand but how can a BC fitted with mining links be equal to the Orca fitted with mining links when the Orca has a ship bonus that increases the effectiveness of the links? I ran the test using those ships to get the exact details I posted. I didn't just pull numbers out of thin air, but as has already been pointed out the laser optimisation link gives a bonus to cycle time not to the yield per cycle. This does however translate into a yield bonus/minute -
Kev Hunter	Posted - 2008.12.02 16:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Moonbat Indabrane Edited by: Moonbat Indabrane on 02/12/2008 13:48:34 Originally by: Kev Hunter So... roughly 5 seconds shorter mining cycle time.. what a waste of 1 billion ISK. What a disappointment. lol wut? edit: using the 3 mining foreman boosters we get a cap bonus, a range bonus and RoF bonus... this is a waste exactly how? In comparison to my alt's bc fully fitted gear and implants and skills... getting 139.5 sec cycle times.. and then spending a bill for the orca + roughly 45-50 mill for the industrial command ships skill.. and wasting the time to get it to lvl 5... only getting 5 seconds shorter of mining cycle times. Yes, that constitutes a waste of ISK and time.
Moonbat Indabrane Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.02 17:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Kev Hunter Originally by: Moonbat Indabrane using the 3 mining foreman boosters we get a cap bonus, a range bonus and RoF bonus... this is a waste exactly how? In comparison to my alt's bc fully fitted gear and implants and skills... getting 139.5 sec cycle times.. and then spending a bill for the orca + roughly 45-50 mill for the industrial command ships skill.. and wasting the time to get it to lvl 5... only getting 5 seconds shorter of mining cycle times. Yes, that constitutes a waste of ISK and time. you'd have a valid point if the orca was only boosting 1 hulk; and that hulk only mined for 1 cycle. twitch!
Morgan Lorus Caldari Unstable Reaction Inc. North Domain Defense Forces	Posted - 2008.12.02 17:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Kev Hunter In comparison to my alt's bc fully fitted gear and implants and skills... getting 139.5 sec cycle times.. and then spending a bill for the orca + roughly 45-50 mill for the industrial command ships skill.. and wasting the time to get it to lvl 5... only getting 5 seconds shorter of mining cycle times. Yes, that constitutes a waste of ISK and time. Isnt it more like, you waste resources when you have a BC with Link just sitting there doing nothing? Instead you could use these resources for hauling, boosting with a little bonus at the same time and never got to deal with canflippers anymore.
Kev Hunter	Posted - 2008.12.03 04:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Morgan Lorus Isnt it more like, you waste resources when you have a BC with Link just sitting there doing nothing? Instead you could use these resources for hauling, boosting with a little bonus at the same time and never got to deal with canflippers anymore. I have 3 accounts. One is a miner, one is a mining director, and one is a hauler. The mining director just idles there and gives mining bonuses. She's equipped with 2 command processors, so all 3 mining foreman links are equipped, active and running. The hauler hauls.. The miner mines.. If the orca docks, the mining bonuses go away until the orca undocks and re-enables all the mining foreman links. The investment is still a waste of ISK if it's all for 5 seconds less cycle times. The yield bonus is given in the same percentage proportion as the cycle times... all that time taken discussing the development of this ship was completely wasted and high sec mining is still not going to be efficient.
Bia Bri	Posted - 2008.12.03 04:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Kev Hunter Originally by: Morgan Lorus Isnt it more like, you waste resources when you have a BC with Link just sitting there doing nothing? Instead you could use these resources for hauling, boosting with a little bonus at the same time and never got to deal with canflippers anymore. I have 3 accounts. One is a miner, one is a mining director, and one is a hauler. The mining director just idles there and gives mining bonuses. She's equipped with 2 command processors, so all 3 mining foreman links are equipped, active and running. The hauler hauls.. The miner mines.. If the orca docks, the mining bonuses go away until the orca undocks and re-enables all the mining foreman links. The investment is still a waste of ISK if it's all for 5 seconds less cycle times. The yield bonus is given in the same percentage proportion as the cycle times... all that time taken discussing the development of this ship was completely wasted and high sec mining is still not going to be efficient. You seem to be overlooking the EXTREMELY relevant fact that if you have 3 characters (which are now miner, hauler, and command ship) you could, with an orca, combine the roles of hauler and command ship and thus have TWO hulks and an orca. Ignoring the other benefits of the orca, this alone doubles the ore coming in over your current setup. Being inside a station for 1 minute out of every 15 or so is not that big of a deal. On a side note, I know your characters might not have skills distributed to do so...but why are you using a miner a command and a hauler currently instead of 2 miners and a hauler? 1 transport ship can easily keep up with 2 hulks with a station in system and that has a significantly higher yield over your current setup. Bottom line, by FAR the most efficient use for exactly three characters in a high sec mining squad is 2 hulks and 1 orca (with the orca hauling). other setups aren't even close (using exactly three characters mind you).
Kev Hunter	Posted - 2008.12.03 07:41:00 - [17] Edited by: Kev Hunter on 03/12/2008 07:40:59 Originally by: Bia Bri On a side note, I know your characters might not have skills distributed to do so...but why are you using a miner a command and a hauler currently instead of 2 miners and a hauler? 1 transport ship can easily keep up with 2 hulks with a station in system and that has a significantly higher yield over your current setup. Bottom line, by FAR the most efficient use for exactly three characters in a high sec mining squad is 2 hulks and 1 orca (with the orca hauling). other setups aren't even close (using exactly three characters mind you). Are you aware that with the current setup of my 3 accounts, my mining lasers have a firing range of 22.5km instead of the typical 15km? The miner sits within 22km of the ore.. the long range stuff that's mined.. the mining director docks = bye bye mined ore = wasted mining cycle. Again, the orca replacing the mining director's bc for such a small increase = waste of isk/time. MOAR Bonusez 4 teh Orka plz!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.03 08:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Kev Hunter Edited by: Kev Hunter on 03/12/2008 07:40:59 Originally by: Bia Bri On a side note, I know your characters might not have skills distributed to do so...but why are you using a miner a command and a hauler currently instead of 2 miners and a hauler? 1 transport ship can easily keep up with 2 hulks with a station in system and that has a significantly higher yield over your current setup. Bottom line, by FAR the most efficient use for exactly three characters in a high sec mining squad is 2 hulks and 1 orca (with the orca hauling). other setups aren't even close (using exactly three characters mind you). Are you aware that with the current setup of my 3 accounts, my mining lasers have a firing range of 22.5km instead of the typical 15km? The miner sits within 22km of the ore.. the long range stuff that's mined.. the mining director docks = bye bye mined ore = wasted mining cycle. Again, the orca replacing the mining director's bc for such a small increase = waste of isk/time. MOAR Bonusez 4 teh Orka plz! Here's an idea, ditch the range and cap usage links given that they are pretty much useless. Also your setup is much worse. 2 hulks + hauler will mine more than 1 hulk + bonus BC + hauler. 2 hulks + Orca will mine even more, even if you did lose the whole cycle when it docked. Of course given it won't need to dock as often as the hauler, you could quite feasibly still use the range link and just mine closer roids when it needs to go dock. If you had 2 hulks + orca, you would mine almost twice as much as you mine now, with the same number of chars. If almost twice is 'small' well, please continue. _____________________________ ░▒▓ ORCAs Available Early and Cheap ▓▒░
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.03 08:44:00 - [19] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 03/12/2008 08:43:57 Originally by: Kev Hunter The investment is still a waste of ISK if it's all for 5 seconds less cycle times. The yield bonus is given in the same percentage proportion as the cycle times... all that time taken discussing the development of this ship was completely wasted and high sec mining is still not going to be efficient. Replacing 2 ships with 1 means an extra hulks worth of yield will more than make up for it, and pay for the ship very quickly. The only reason you need to have one AND a hauler (or another Orca) is for very large ops where the extra yield will make a difference across many ships. _____________________________ ░▒▓ ORCAs Available Early and Cheap ▓▒░
Satrani Destiva Just Another Indy Corp Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2008.12.03 09:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Kev Hunter Are you aware that with the current setup of my 3 accounts, my mining lasers have a firing range of 22.5km instead of the typical 15km? Are you aware that with indy command ships trained to level 4 (my booster's current level) I can hit roids at 23 km? At level 4 probably at more like 24-25km. HOWEVER, if you re so inflexible that you are only ever going to use one hulk then your current setup is just fine and would never warrent paying out for an orca (or at least it would take a heeeeeeeellll of a long time to gain the money through the extra bonuses the orca gives). You'll notice though that everyone who has argued against you uses more than one miner in which case the bonuses given will be more than usefull. -
Kev Hunter	Posted - 2008.12.03 10:48:00 - [21] Edited by: Kev Hunter on 03/12/2008 10:55:00 Originally by: Satrani Destiva Are you aware that with indy command ships trained to level 4 (my booster's current level) I can hit roids at 23 km? At level 4 probably at more like 24-25km. Again, small potatoes. 1-2km is a pittance of an upgrade for the amount of ISK spent. Originally by: Satrani Destiva HOWEVER, if you re so inflexible that you are only ever going to use one hulk then your current setup is just fine and would never warrent paying out for an orca (or at least it would take a heeeeeeeellll of a long time to gain the money through the extra bonuses the orca gives). You'll notice though that everyone who has argued against you uses more than one miner in which case the bonuses given will be more than usefull. I'm not going to waste 3-6 months time plus x amount more ISK to make him pilot a hulk. Besides, I'm sure you're using auto-scripts to efficiently manage 2 hulks and an orca which is by CCP's TOS illegal. And if that's the case, can we have a moderator come into this thread please? There needs to be some bot/script users that need their accounts banned/cancelled! "OMG there's moar pplz arguing against you and no one supporting your argument! You're wrong! LOLZ" That's hitting a bit below the belt. You hurt my e-feelingz lulz! What's right isn't always popular.. and what's popular isn't always right. By the way, let's do some math. Industrial command ships 5 = 15% bonus to all mining foreman link stats. My mining director has 139.5 sec mining cycles fully decked out. If the Orca is designed to give a 15% bonus on top of that, then it should be another 15% shorter. 15% of 139.5 sec = 20.925 Therefore 139.5 - 20.925 = 118.575 sec. A fully decked out Orca with all skills maxed + mining foreman links and the mining foreman mindlink should be putting strip miners at 118.575 sec, not 134 sec. My mining director's range is 22.5km. 15% of 22.5km is 3.375km. Therefore 22.5km + 3.375km = 25.875km... almost 26km. I won't discuss the cap usage because I've not the time or patience to discuss that... especially with the various T2 crystal types. Either way, we've been ripped off with the Orca guys. CCP needs to fix this immediately! And if this outperforms the Rorqual, then the Rorqual stats/calculations need to be fixed as well!
Aion Amarra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Kev Hunter By the way, let's do some math. Industrial command ships 5 = 15% bonus to all mining foreman link stats. Exactly. They multiply the percentage bonus of the mining foreman LINK by 1.15. Which leads to the exact results we're getting. It's not applied as direct modifier to the ship stats. And as you can see in the second response in this thread, the Rorqual does slightly better.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:32:00 - [23] Edited by: Akita T on 03/12/2008 11:35:07 Quote: By the way, let's do some math Assuming "all relevant L5" character with mining mindlink and BC/CS with proper links as baseline... BC or CS: baseline w/ Orca : +4.5492% overall yield Rorqual : +7.8219% overall yield Now, consider that a 5% mining yield implant costs around 60-70 mil ISK, while a 3% mining yield implant under 10 mil, giving you a mere +1.94% actual yield increase... well... multiply that by the number of miners that COULD get MORE THAN DOUBLE that increase by having an Orca around... well, you get the idea. IF you don't care for that, FINE. Originally by: Kev Hunter I'm not going to waste 3-6 months time plus x amount more ISK to make him pilot a hulk. THEN FRIGGING DON'T. The Orca was NOT intended for pretentious solo nitpickers and their paltry three accounts, but for corp-level mining ops. Quote: Besides, I'm sure you're using auto-scripts to efficiently manage 2 hulks and an orca which is by CCP's TOS illegal. You need a SCRIPT to drag and drop stuff once every 2+ minutes or so per account ? What are you, disabled or something ? _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:42:00 - [24] Edited by: Akita T on 03/12/2008 11:41:59 gah doublepost _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Lauri Andromedae	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:45:00 - [25] I did EFT warrioring with EFT and Hulk with T2 strips, T2 mining drones, V skills, implants, all bonuses etc can get little over 2900 yield with Orca. 2x Hulks 1x Orca with 3.50 tritanium price gets around 36 M ISK per hour. No delays or target switching calculated in. That's pure maximum, sorry if I miscalculated something. That means that with 4x Hulks, 1x Orca and 1x IttyV you can get 72 M ISK per hour if the tritanium price is 3.50.. It's now around 4.00 in Jita... So basically, dude with 6 accounts, and characters little over average skills can certainly pull atleast 50-55 M ISK per hour by mining tritanium Myself, I would start doing that but I lack PC's to do so. I have planned to buy 3x laptops and put 2x clients on each running the client with 1024*768 resolution and all connected with KVM switch. But my wife doesn't agree that masterplan - so it will have to wait. And I also lack skilled characters to do so For the fun.. If you would have those maxed out characters and you would use 6 characters you would pull out 8640 M ISK per month by mining 4 hours a day. If you could sell with 4.00 price, you would get around 9875 M ISK per month. It would cost 1800 M ISK to keep your characters paid with ISK. OMG Now everyone take this as FOTM and start buying characters and start mining Wait..
Voltaeis Gemini	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:45:00 - [26] Yes I agree with the assessment the ORCA in its current incarnation is a poor investment unless you are collectively mining in a group of 3 or 4 hulks. Less than this and the orca pilot is probably better served by just piloting a hulk with his buddies for a higher group yield. In any case unless the number of hulk miners is large it will take an aweful long time for the net benefit of the ORCA bonuses to yeild to break even against the price of the vessel. Although it is not the intent the orca may be just what the doctor ordered for isk farmers that perma mine as they are likely the only parties to derive enough benefit to maike the purchase worthwhile. In general i think there is more to be done to buff mining in high sec... a more abundant supply of veld / scord / pyroxers is not a bad point to start from.. either more belts or lower respawn times.. Anyhow those discussions are not for this thread.. Back on topic I just dont think this ship represents value.. for my purposes i would rather a vessel with mining turrets and command bonuses in line with those of a bc... or if the current bonuses simply must stand i would prefer a mining drone yield bonus of say 200% per level, this would make the ship unique and at level 5 each drone would yield approximately the same as 10 drones used by any other vessel. Well light ur flamethrowers and hose me down u d1cks..
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.03 12:25:00 - [27] Good to see that most of the posts in this thread are arguing two completely different points. Yes, the Orca is a waste if you plan on only using a small number of characters. No, the Orca is not a waste if you are running a large mining op. It's fine, L2P as they say. sXe
Girabaldi D'Protagonist Minmatar In Theory.	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:03:00 - [28] Here is where you see some benefit to the orca. What we have done is replaced our BC with the orca for Ice mining. When I run the orca with 3 Mackinaws in support I can fill the orca (129 Blocks current setup) in 45 minutes. With 3 Mack pilots of equal skills I can start a new cycle, warp the orca to station and back and start the link, and retrieve the ice from the macks before the new cycle starts.. How do you do that you say that thing is a pig.. its easy.. have one of your macks equiped with a webber. The orca actually spins pretty quick and with the web it warps right away.. so the only slow warp off is from the station.. This thing also makes you a social god.. because you can invite other miners into the fllet and give them bonuses.. and most enjoy that. Improvise adapt and overcome.. oh and did i mention.. it is damn secksy sitting out there with its mackinaw drones hovering around it.. Imagine mining command ship with mackinaw ice mining drones.. woohooo
Fitzwilliam Bookworm	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Kev Hunter Besides, I'm sure you're using auto-scripts to efficiently manage 2 hulks and an orca which is by CCP's TOS illegal. And if that's the case, can we have a moderator come into this thread please? There needs to be some bot/script users that need their accounts banned/cancelled! Total rubbish - its very easy to do
Satrani Destiva Just Another Indy Corp Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:48:00 - [30] Edited by: Satrani Destiva on 03/12/2008 13:53:38 So let me get this straight. You asked for advice on whether the orca gave any benefits Vs a BC. You were told that it does but then decided that they weren't enough to warrant you paying the isk to buy one which is a fair comment, but then you try to totaly trash talk the ship even though you have been told by some of the bigger industrial names in this forum that the ship is VERY worthwhile for larger ops, and still you disagree. Well done you are a successful troll. -

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