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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:32:00 -
[1]
so yeah, a good case can be made that nanos were a bit broken, but i think we all can agree that the nerf happened because the caldari FW hordes cried en masse about wanting a change
so all ships get new speeds, missiles get reworked, ditto drones. result? while the nanovaga now goes quite a bit slower, everyone else goes much much slower. a vagabond can still disengage at will from everything but a minnie recon (and their weakened webs help here too), and kill anything that can chase it down.
am i doing something wrong in that i don't feel nerfed at all? from reading the forum i thought this was going to be the end of the vagabond and we're all cross training for drakes or something. --
i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.02 16:42:00 -
[2]
Vaga wasnt nerfed other nanoships were.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:18:00 -
[3]
The speed changes weren't really meant to be a nerf to the Vaga, they were meant to be a rebalancing of speed. With a moment's thought it should be clear that this would result in the Vaga being more powerful as it would have its niche back (since it's really meant to go fast).
From what I have heard from people who fly the Vaga (yourself included by the sounds of things), this was broadly successful and the Vagabond maintains its speed advantage. In fact the Vaga got boosted a little, since the extra stacking in general with speeds means that it's no longer quite the arms race it was, and with 2-3 speed mods you can be reasonably sure that e.g. an Ishtar isn't going to be able to catch up to you. Thus you get more low/rigs slots to play with more interesting things such as falloff rigs/gyrostabs/MWD cap rigs/PDS/CPRs...
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:31:00 -
[4]
Yeah don't worry it's still very overpowered.
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman The speed changes weren't really meant to be a nerf to the Vaga, they were meant to be a rebalancing of speed. With a moment's thought it should be clear that this would result in the Vaga being more powerful as it would have its niche back (since it's really meant to go fast).
From what I have heard from people who fly the Vaga (yourself included by the sounds of things), this was broadly successful and the Vagabond maintains its speed advantage. In fact the Vaga got boosted a little, since the extra stacking in general with speeds means that it's no longer quite the arms race it was, and with 2-3 speed mods you can be reasonably sure that e.g. an Ishtar isn't going to be able to catch up to you. Thus you get more low/rigs slots to play with more interesting things such as falloff rigs/gyrostabs/MWD cap rigs/PDS/CPRs...
a rigless vaga with 2 damage mods is twice as fast a rigged nanoishtar, hehe --
i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter |
Captator
Universal Securities Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Stab Wounds Yeah don't worry it's still very overpowered.
@ OP, it now has its niche back, as its mobility was boosted relative to the other HACs, and as said above, the stacking nerf really gives you the option of fitting something other than speed mods/polys \o/
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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:19:00 -
[7]
Vaga is ok, rigged or unrigged now everything is stacking penaltized.
3 Speed modules are them optimum for slot use, in whatever way they are spread.
3.1km/s or 3.2km/s rigged, difference is minimal. Even full rigged and full skilled, it cant go above 3.3km/s
Yeah its supposed to be faster. The problem before wasnt the vaga itself. Was the abuse of speed modules, nanoishtar, nanotyphoon, nanozealot, nano-*.*
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:26:00 -
[8]
Most nano ships weren't the problem really. To be honest there were few nano ships capable of attaing the fabled invulnerable speed and even those were rarely so expensively equipped. The problem was that speed became so common that the standard for a good PVP ship became "one that can go really fast" rather than looking at it's other virtues. A ship that couldn't nano was relegated to home defense and blobs and apparently CCP decided they didn't like that trend (after two years of telling everyone that speed is vitally important).
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.02 20:17:00 -
[9]
The AB Vaga is the new favorite toy for me. Incredible fun and a complete surprise to people attacking you who are expecting a standard nano-MWD vaga.
Oh yeah, and to dispel any myths about not being able to burn back to the gate, let me tell you that I have already encountered several such situations and even while double webbed, I managed to get back to the gate with negligible damage. --------
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Dong Ninja
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Posted - 2008.12.02 20:38:00 -
[10]
I don't dislike the AB vaga for engaging, but since you don't have the raw speed of the MWD to go long distances on a grid an AB is much more suited to when you know that you'll be shooting bigger ships than yourself or not fighting enemy snipers. For roaming gangs it's a very viable option, I just don't expect to catch that interceptor or MWD'ed HAC. Just don't use it solo.
The plus is you have more grid to work with and can permarun almost any vaga setup with it.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.12.02 20:50:00 -
[11]
Yes, things worked out rather good for the vaga.
Tbh being poor it always annoyed me to hell and back how people outperformed my vaga which has the speed bonus in basically any hac just by throwing isk at it and getting snake implants. Can't say I'm unhappy
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.02 21:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Stab Wounds Yeah don't worry it's still very overpowered.
Oh yeah baby that was sweet. Say it again for daddy.
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.02 21:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dong Ninja For roaming gangs it's a very viable option, I just don't expect to catch that interceptor or MWD'ed HAC. Just don't use it solo.
Disagree. I don't need to catch anything. Everything is trying to catch me, so eager to get into scramble range to turn off my MWD. Except that I don't have one. And by the time they realize this, I'm running rings around them at 1.2 km/s, with my own scrambler/web, and 425mm's lighting them up. Tracking rigs help. And they're dirt cheap now. --------
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Haven Front
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Posted - 2008.12.03 03:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 03/12/2008 03:55:39
The Vaga gained the most from speed mods because of the built in bonus so it is logical that any nerf to speed mods will have greatest negative effect. As it stands now you are going a measly 1km/s faster then other cruisers (before it was 3-4km/s faster). And now it takes twice as long to get out of range of Webs/Scrams/Neuts/Guns so when you do get tackled you have worst DPS/Tank/Tracking of all the HACs to protect yourself.
So you are kidding yourself if you think the latest patch was not a nerf to the Vaga. The first Dev blog on this practically says it, the fact that Vaga sales has plummeted says it, and the fact that roaming gangs are not comprised of 1/3 Vagas says it. CCP wanted to see a greater variety in roaming gangs and (good or bad) it worked. For roaming gangs, I have never seen so much variety in years.
In a twisted way (as you can tell I am a Vaga pilot) I kind of like the changes as I have dusted off my Muninn, bought a few AFs, have three different Vaga setups I am trying out, and I have also added a TP to my Rapier which has proved pretty interesting in large engagements. As much as I loved my cookie cutter Vaga, it just is not the king of the hill it once was.
The Vaga was clearly nerfed, but maybe it was not really a bad thing.
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Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.03 04:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Stab Wounds Yeah don't worry it's still very overpowered.
your trolling caldari missile **g tears sustain me. "one more spam thread will get you a warning. - Thanks Hutch. " isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'?
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.12.03 05:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
The Vaga gained the most from speed mods because of the built in bonus so it is logical that any nerf to speed mods will have greatest negative effect. As it stands now you are going a measly 1km/s faster then other cruisers (before it was 3-4km/s faster).
On the other hand, with the bonus it gains more from every speedmod you put in, you get around 3km/s from just 2 lowslot modules, and you dont need more as there is no real risk any other cruiser will come close to that. If there is something fast enough, I'm pretty sure it'll get melted
Depends on how you look at it, I never really needed that much speed, most of the time you are going without mwd anyway, an easy 1-1.5km/s edge is enough for me.
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 06:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 03/12/2008 03:55:39
The Vaga gained the most from speed mods because of the built in bonus so it is logical that any nerf to speed mods will have greatest negative effect. As it stands now you are going a measly 1km/s faster then other cruisers (before it was 3-4km/s faster). And now it takes twice as long to get out of range of Webs/Scrams/Neuts/Guns so when you do get tackled you have worst DPS/Tank/Tracking of all the HACs to protect yourself.
So you are kidding yourself if you think the latest patch was not a nerf to the Vaga. The first Dev blog on this practically says it, the fact that Vaga sales has plummeted says it, and the fact that roaming gangs are not comprised of 1/3 Vagas says it. CCP wanted to see a greater variety in roaming gangs and (good or bad) it worked. For roaming gangs, I have never seen so much variety in years.
In a twisted way (as you can tell I am a Vaga pilot) I kind of like the changes as I have dusted off my Muninn, bought a few AFs, have three different Vaga setups I am trying out, and I have also added a TP to my Rapier which has proved pretty interesting in large engagements. As much as I loved my cookie cutter Vaga, it just is not the king of the hill it once was.
The Vaga was clearly nerfed, but maybe it was not really a bad thing.
You have a very one-dimensional view of the Vagabond. And sales of the ship have plummeted precisely because the masses share your one dimensional view. I benefit because I love this ship now more than ever. This ship has a new role now - the role of a nasty web-range dogfighter. A cruiser-sized Jaguar. --------
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Haven Front
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Posted - 2008.12.03 06:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: VJ Maverick You have a very one-dimensional view of the Vagabond. And sales of the ship have plummeted precisely because the masses share your one dimensional view. I benefit because I love this ship now more than ever. This ship has a new role now - the role of a nasty web-range dogfighter. A cruiser-sized Jaguar.
ņI am far from one dimensional. I already said I have 3 different setups for the Vaga now. The setup I used before was cookie cutter because it worked so well (hence the nerf). Your cruiser sized (and AB fitted) Jag will take about 40% dmg from heavies (pre patch a Vaga took almost no damage from heavies). Your cruiser sized Jag will die to any other close range HAC with a web (and similar pilot skill). Your cruiser sized Jag will waste the two fall bonuses it gets (The ship bonus and barrage). The Vaga was designed to control range, that is why it has a huge falloff bonus and the speed to stay in that falloff range. You take advantages of the bonuses of the ship. There is nothing one dimensional about that. And I am not saying the Vaga is not viable or not fun, just do not fool yourself in thinking the Vaga was not nerfed.
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Haven Front
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Posted - 2008.12.03 07:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
The Vaga gained the most from speed mods because of the built in bonus so it is logical that any nerf to speed mods will have greatest negative effect. As it stands now you are going a measly 1km/s faster then other cruisers (before it was 3-4km/s faster).
On the other hand, with the bonus it gains more from every speedmod you put in, you get around 3km/s from just 2 lowslot modules, and you dont need more as there is no real risk any other cruiser will come close to that. If there is something fast enough, I'm pretty sure it'll get melted
The risk comes in that it takes twice as long to get out of their attack range from things like webs/neuts/guns/drones. None of those modules had their ranges nerfed And if you PVP then you know you can't constantly stay far from everything every time.
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 07:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Originally by: VJ Maverick You have a very one-dimensional view of the Vagabond. And sales of the ship have plummeted precisely because the masses share your one dimensional view. I benefit because I love this ship now more than ever. This ship has a new role now - the role of a nasty web-range dogfighter. A cruiser-sized Jaguar.
ņI am far from one dimensional. I already said I have 3 different setups for the Vaga now. The setup I used before was cookie cutter because it worked so well (hence the nerf). Your cruiser sized (and AB fitted) Jag will take about 40% dmg from heavies (pre patch a Vaga took almost no damage from heavies). Your cruiser sized Jag will die to any other close range HAC with a web (and similar pilot skill). Your cruiser sized Jag will waste the two fall bonuses it gets (The ship bonus and barrage). The Vaga was designed to control range, that is why it has a huge falloff bonus and the speed to stay in that falloff range. You take advantages of the bonuses of the ship. There is nothing one dimensional about that. And I am not saying the Vaga is not viable or not fun, just do not fool yourself in thinking the Vaga was not nerfed.
Completely one dimensional. Even your concept of web range is one dimensional. You see yourself as either being within web range or being outside of it. There are many degrees of web range. You can control range within web range, especially with an AB. You are still faster than almost anything else within web range. How are you going to die horribly to another close range hac when you're orbiting him at 8 kms? Also how is your fall-off bonus wasted? Last time I checked, 8 km was well into the medium AC's fall-off range. With the old vagabond, you had to shoot from 18-20 kms, losing a lot of dps in the process. Now you can shoot from 8kms and put a lot of lead accurately on target while at the same time effectively speedtanking anything cruiser sized or above. --------
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 07:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt The risk comes in that it takes twice as long to get out of their attack range from things like webs/neuts/guns/drones. None of those modules had their ranges nerfed And if you PVP then you know you can't constantly stay far from everything every time.
Gah. Open your eyes. Everything is slower. So it takes you twice as long to get out of range but you have 1/5 the sig radius of the old Vagabond. You are much harder to hit. The new speed/sig res mechanics benefit this ship greatly. --------
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.12.03 08:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: VJ Maverick Completely one dimensional. Even your concept of web range is one dimensional. You see yourself as either being within web range or being outside of it. There are many degrees of web range. You can control range within web range, especially with an AB. You are still faster than almost anything else within web range. How are you going to die horribly to another close range hac when you're orbiting him at 8 kms? Also how is your fall-off bonus wasted? Last time I checked, 8 km was well into the medium AC's fall-off range. With the old vagabond, you had to shoot from 18-20 kms, losing a lot of dps in the process. Now you can shoot from 8kms and put a lot of lead accurately on target while at the same time effectively speedtanking anything cruiser sized or above.
I was curious so I went and threw this into EFT - a Vaga with max skills, 2 OD II, and one LSE II (using an invuln to keep sig radius down), webbed (so moving at 40% speed) is going to get hit by about 83% of Heavy Pulse Laser II damage from 8km away. Moving closer lets you reduce damage pretty easily but this is also assuming that your target is not moving - if they move away from you (at say, 150 m/s) you get hit by 92% of damage at 8km. (Yes I know HPL II optimal is 7.5km but whatevs). now the HPL II is the worst tracking gun of all the close range medium weapon systems (I'm pretty sure) so you're not going to be avoiding an awful lot of damage at that range due to tracking, and if you go too close you probably won't be able to maintain as much transversal. I'd be very worried about them then lighting their MWD and zooming off (since I'm assuming you don't have a scram, just a 24km).
It does look like it'll work pretty well against anything without a web...
I think a problem with it is that 1100 / 1500 overloaded isn't actually that fast, and if you have no way of keeping your opponent from accelerating to their max (presumably with MWD) speed, it's fairly easy for them to move such that they can significantly reduce transversal. Very high tracking guns will track you with minimal effort.
Now, this is all theorycrafting, but I've spent a good chunk of time in EFT playing with various fits and damage graphs and I see no reason to dismiss the above just because it comes out of EFT... but, of course, take it with a grain of salt. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 08:21:00 -
[23]
I have a scram and not a 24km. Like I said, stuff is just way too eager to scramble me so I don't have to chase anything. And when EFT told you that I'd be getting hit by an HPL at 8 kms, did it happen to mention the effect that an HPL would have on the Vagabond's native shield resists? What about blasters? Why don't you ask EFT about blasters? See what it says. --------
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.12.03 09:06:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 03/12/2008 09:08:17
Originally by: VJ Maverick I have a scram and not a 24km. Like I said, stuff is just way too eager to scramble me so I don't have to chase anything. And when EFT told you that I'd be getting hit by an HPL at 8 kms, did it happen to mention the effect that an HPL would have on the Vagabond's native shield resists? What about blasters? Why don't you ask EFT about blasters? See what it says.
I was using lasers because I was testing the effects of speed on close range gun tracking, and HPL tracking would be the best case scenario for you, as other ships track worse all other weapons track better. [EDIT: fixed]
Will give it a shot with a Deimos with AM / null and heavy neutrons: Okay, at best you're looking at maybe a 30-40% damage reduction if you stay outside 8km and he's got AM, but only about a 20% damage reduction if he's got null, and this is assuming that he's sitting perfectly still. Once he gets moving you only have a very small damage reduction against null, though you can go closer. Even moving AM doesn't go so well for you - at 8km he's into half falloff which sucks, but at about 4km he's losing only a small amount (about 60 out of 600+) damage due to tracking, and some would question how fast you can orbit at 4km. Also, he still has a MWD that he can light to exceed your webbed velocity (500-700 depending on skills, fit, and overloading or not) which means... eh? In summary: for blasters - it'll take some more ammo switching but as long as he doesn't sit perfectly still he still has a pretty decent shot of hitting you, and if he uses a MWD it looks like you'll be in trouble.
Maybe I'm missing something but even if we ignore tracking it doesn't really look like you can control range in web range against anything with a web and a MWD, scram or not.
By the way, yes your shield resists are quite good, but getting tracked by a gank harbinger at its optimal is not going to end well for you.
I'm not trying to dump all over your fit, but it seems like something isn't quite adding up. (subtext: no reason to get defensive <3)
By the way, if you're unwebbed, you do get huge damage reduction for galavanting about at that range... but it'd be a strange ship that wants to operate within 10km that has the slots for a web and doesn't fit one. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.03 09:41:00 -
[25]
Webbed ABing Vaga will take about 50% damage from HAMs, and about 60% from HMs. That's pretty similar to the damage that would be taken by an unwebbed MWDing Vaga, actually.
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 10:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Maybe I'm missing something but even if we ignore tracking it doesn't really look like you can control range in web range against anything with a web and a MWD, scram or not.
You are missing something. You are so fixated with the traditional webless, dual LSE setup that you see no way for such a ship to dictate range within scram and web range. The fact is, with an AB, a scram, and a web, I am the fastest cruiser anywhere within 9.5 kms of me, easily dictating the range of any one chosen target. I tried this in actual combat. It works. Get out of EFT and get into your Vagabond! --------
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.12.03 10:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Maybe I'm missing something but even if we ignore tracking it doesn't really look like you can control range in web range against anything with a web and a MWD, scram or not.
You are missing something. You are so fixated with the traditional webless, dual LSE setup that you see no way for such a ship to dictate range within scram and web range. The fact is, with an AB, a scram, and a web, I am the fastest cruiser anywhere within 9.5 kms of me, easily dictating the range of any one chosen target. I tried this in actual combat. It works. Get out of EFT and get into your Vagabond!
You aren't, though, that's the thing. Deimos speed with MWD: 1657 m/s, 2362 m/s overloaded Vagabond speed with AB: 1176 m/s, 1532 m/s overloaded Webbed Vaga with AB: 471 m/s, 613 m/s overloaded
Unless, of course, you're fitting a web as well... but the Deimos is still faster, even if you overload the AB and the Deimos does not overload the MWD (663 m/s without overload, 945 with).
And then you're down to a single LSE as a "tank" ...
Aside: I do not fly the Vagabond - I have the gunnery skills, and decent navigation skills (need the MWD speed boost skill up to V), and HAC V - but I do not have Minmatar Cruiser V. (aside 2: I don't therefore particularly see myself as "fixated" on any particular setup - and I wasn't using a dual LSE vaga, I was using a 1 LSE, 1 invuln for sig radius and fitting ) However, that is not relevant to the following two observations: a: You are not the fastest cruiser in web range, unless you fit both a web and scram on your AB vaga. For all I know, you might. b: Even the worst tracking medium turrets will be able to track you fairly easily, according to the tracking formula which is, for all I know, accurate.
You can therefore understand my confusion, I assume, when you claim that you can gain significant damage reduction by orbiting at close range, and when you claim that you can in fact dictate range against a cruiser. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 10:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Deimos speed with MWD: 1657 m/s, 2362 m/s overloaded Vagabond speed with AB: 1176 m/s, 1532 m/s overloaded Webbed Vaga with AB: 471 m/s, 613 m/s overloaded
Unless, of course, you're fitting a web as well... but the Deimos is still faster, even if you overload the AB and the Deimos does not overload the MWD (663 m/s without overload, 945 with).
FFS! How is that Deimos going to overload the MWD that just got shut off by my scram? Think outside of your preconceived notions. --------
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.12.03 11:54:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 03/12/2008 11:54:47
Originally by: VJ Maverick Edited by: VJ Maverick on 03/12/2008 10:57:57
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Deimos speed with MWD: 1657 m/s, 2362 m/s overloaded Vagabond speed with AB: 1176 m/s, 1532 m/s overloaded Webbed Vaga with AB: 471 m/s, 613 m/s overloaded
Unless, of course, you're fitting a web as well... but the Deimos is still faster, even if you overload the AB and the Deimos does not overload the MWD (663 m/s without overload, 945 with).
FFS! How is that Deimos going to overload the MWD that just got shut off by my scram? Think outside of your preconceived notions.
These are my mids: AB, scram, web, LSE. Please take them all into account when formulating your next argument.
Relax, dude. I'm not making any arguments, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on here. I misread what you wrote above somewhere as "I have a 24km scram", when you actually said "I have a scram and not a 24km one." My mistake. Granted, you'll be the fastest cruiser within 10km... but I'd still worry about medium turret fire tracking you pretty well, although the web helps you cut down on their attempts to pull range. ECM drones are going to spell nasty things happening though.
But, of course, it's inconceivable that I may have just made a mistake, nooo, it's much more likely that I'm ignorant and stuck in some preconceived notion of what a vagabond should be. Get off your high horse; you're not some genious with a brilliant setup, and quit playing up the "oh wow, poor me, i have to waste my time explaining my amazing setup to these plebians" vibe. It's annoying.
By the way, last time I found those vagabond setups on Sisi, they didn't work very well, which would explain my skepticism.
By the way 2: Next time, just post your setup. Better to educate all of the stupid, unwashed masses at once instead of making me go through all the goddamn theorycraft.
Next time I'll just assume you know what you're doing instead of expressing concerns about the effectiveness of your oh-so-mighty setup.
Presumptuous little ass... __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Burn Mac
Minmatar The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.03 12:28:00 -
[30]
Dude the nerf worked out ok, business as usual.
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