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Making FW actually give money

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Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.03 04:48:00 - [31] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 03/12/2008 04:50:02 Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 03/12/2008 04:48:47 Bounties would be bad. Maybe an LP store and some translation of player VP to LPs. That would actually reward people for capturing plexes both defensively and offensively. It would also be a way to make FW unique if they gave equipment there that people could not get in any other LP store. Primary problem would be that the VP is currently not split when you have a large number of people capturing a single plex. They would need some mechanic that awarded VP based on how long each pilot was in the plex or something else along those lines for it to be a fair system. Maybe consider setting it up to be a variable reward based on how contested the system is to simulate the empires rewarding those who focus on the systems that actually matter. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Atomos Darksun Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.03 04:56:00 - [32] There needs to be some kind of monetary/reward in FW to actually make it worth something. Why do you fight over the systems? "Because I can." In 0.0 it's all about the Iskies and protecting the iskies, and low sec (FW zones at the very least) should be like that as well. I would love to join up for FW, but other than my obligations to my corp, the main thing that is holding me back is that I do NOT want to have to run missions to be able to support myself when I could join a 0.0 corp and do the exact same thing, while making at least double the money. Just not in low sec. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... CONVERT TO LINKIFICATION! http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
Cipher7	Posted - 2008.12.03 05:08:00 - [33] I think PVP should have more rewards, I think it should be a profession like mining or mission-running. Why is it that all the best money-making activities in this "pvp game" require you to avoid pvp like the plague. Imagine if there were navies you could join, draw a salary based on rank (how many kills you got etc) which enabled you to pvp every day and spend all your pay to buy new ships. All the ships being destroyed require a vast logistical chain that requires builders, researchers, mish-runners, haulers, miners, etc this would be the "civilian" sector. I think it's just dumb that ppl make money with one character, and then go spend it to have fun on another. ---
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.12.03 07:42:00 - [34] Originally by: Cipher7 I think PVP should have more rewards, I think it should be a profession like mining or mission-running. Why is it that all the best money-making activities in this "pvp game" require you to avoid pvp like the plague. Imagine if there were navies you could join, draw a salary based on rank (how many kills you got etc) which enabled you to pvp every day and spend all your pay to buy new ships. All the ships being destroyed require a vast logistical chain that requires builders, researchers, mish-runners, haulers, miners, etc this would be the "civilian" sector. I think it's just dumb that ppl make money with one character, and then go spend it to have fun on another. This. PvP has reached the point where you only do it if you want to. If you want a lot of ISK you can never touch it. Problem. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.03 07:48:00 - [35] You can run the FW missions and sell the tags. There's your money.
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.12.03 08:02:00 - [36] Edited by: Verx Interis on 03/12/2008 08:05:02 Originally by: Tasko Pal You can run the FW missions and sell the tags. There's your money. Oh yes. Have you ever DONE the FW missions? Did you even read the post? I'll take a BC/BS 15 jumps through hostile lowsec, SOMEHOW survive, so that I can go to a mission that sets off a beacon for anyone in system to see, while I sit there helpless trying to kill NPCs, then spend even more time with a beacon telling anyone in system where I am while I loot the tags, then try to get back through the 15j of hostile lowsec to go sell the tags. Once it's possible to do that on a regular basis, I'll stop complaining. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.03 08:24:00 - [37] Originally by: Verx Interis This. PvP has reached the point where you only do it if you want to. If you want a lot of ISK you can never touch it. Problem. Well, there's the concern that if PvP works as a serious isk generating profession you negate a large part of the risk involved in combat, which basically leads to carebearification(tm) of PvP - deaths don't matter because it's easy to blob your isk back _____________________ WTS: One face, slightly used, must go now!
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.12.03 09:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax Edited by: Rainson Arrvax on 02/12/2008 19:06:29 I tend to agree with you Verx. They aren't making it easy for a lot of people to join in on the fun. For a lot of folks replacing 100m isk isn't a big deal but for me it is. I don't think anyone is saying that FW should be a money making replacement (to mining, manufacturing, mission running, or piracy) but there needs to be some kind of way to take the edge off. I came back to EVE specifically for the FW, after an almost 3 year absence. Its been a month now and I've had to decide whether to spend that time training PvP or money making. I chose PvP only to find that I couldn't keep up with the money flow. Now I'm faced with another month of training money making and another to improve my PvP points. I'm not sure I want to do that. I left EVE to begin with because I was bored. Now I need to spend more time hoping that it will be fun in the end? As I've said before, I can't think of any other game where the price for failure in PvP is so high. What's wrong with your ship, sans fittings, being replaced by your Faction? Make these replacements non-transferable if you want. But give me some ability to participate and some reason to fly a 200m isk special-purpose ship. Youuuu do realize no one is forcing you to fly a 200mil ship into FW , right?? Just because you trained for something doesn't mean you need to use it all the time. If your flying that kind of stuff then you assume the risk of losing it. Theres no FC demanding fleet fits or anything of the sort. IF there is an FC in FW making demands that most players would be hard pressed to meet then hes going to find himself leading no one. However a flood of 5-8mil cruisers should be fine. A BC or BS should be something used once in a while if you have that kind of isk flow. Basically it all comes down to what you have the income for. Your complaint is akin to eating caviar on a mcdonald's budget. Of course your going to end up broke and frustrated. Buy some cruisers and battlecruisers instead of 1 ship thats going to cost you 200mil.
Dr Karsun Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2008.12.03 09:59:00 - [39] Edited by: Dr Karsun on 03/12/2008 09:59:29 As far as I see it, FW was never to give money, it's just a good oportunity to rise your faction standing hyper fast and pvp more and a bit safer. Although the safer part is not really true :P War always cost a lot of money and it didn't give much. Since the ancient times... And war, war never changes... ------------------------ My Deviantart profile
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 10:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Titan Pilot Verx raises a very interesting point. The only way FW is going to attract and retain good quality PVP is to make it lucrative. Please reread FW objectives, though.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.12.03 10:23:00 - [41] Originally by: Dr Karsun Edited by: Dr Karsun on 03/12/2008 09:59:29 As far as I see it, FW was never to give money, it's just a good oportunity to rise your faction standing hyper fast and pvp more and a bit safer. Although the safer part is not really true :P War always cost a lot of money and it didn't give much. Since the ancient times... And war, war never changes... this but I always thought that capturing plexes should give some lps.
Dr Karsun Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2008.12.03 10:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Originally by: Dr Karsun Edited by: Dr Karsun on 03/12/2008 09:59:29 As far as I see it, FW was never to give money, it's just a good oportunity to rise your faction standing hyper fast and pvp more and a bit safer. Although the safer part is not really true :P War always cost a lot of money and it didn't give much. Since the ancient times... And war, war never changes... this but I always thought that capturing plexes should give some lps. Oh yes, I wouldn't mind it giving lps, but such huge standing boosts are enough for me... The first promotion gave me 4%, the second 6% standing boost, that's a -lot- compared to how hard it is to get the standing boost threw storyline missions. You get a storyline every... 10 missions? Not sure. And it can give you less than 1%, sure it can give you 8%, but it's rare. And you can earn the first 2-3 promotion within a day or two of plexing... ------------------------ My Deviantart profile
Cletus Graeme Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:33:00 - [43] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 03/12/2008 11:36:21 FW certainly needs more features and ingame rewards but a simple ISK reward is a bad idea. Why? (1) It's PvP not PvE - nowhere in EvE are you DIRECTLY rewarded with ISK for PvPing. As people have already mentioned, you must ransom/loot/salvage or take and hold assets (e.g pos/stations) to materially benefit from PvP - which is how it should be. (2) From a game mechanics POV, FW effectively provides you with a FREE, PERMANENT EMPIRE WAR DEC. It is therefore actually SAVING you ISK since before FW you had to PAY to be able to PvP in Empire. Having said all that, some kind of material reward is DEFINITELY needed to make FW a worthwhile LONG TERM gameplay option, but this doesn't have to be ISK. IF an ISK reward is introduced into FW it MUST be linked to actual FW achievements (i.e plexes taken or ships killed) rather than a salary received as a militia member. Also, the size of such rewards would have to be balanced with those from PvE (especially LvL 4/5 mission running and 0.0 ratting). EvE already has plenty of ISK sources so the addition of yet another needs careful management to retain game balance.
Cletus Graeme Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:57:00 - [44] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 if anything, they need to add more aesthetics to FW, not like making moeny, but actually give non monetary benefits for FW, and making their lives easier if they take that system for example denying station services to enemy milita This is a really good idea. Why on earth are you able to dock at enemy stations in hostile space if the faction police know you are in local as soon as you jump in and even chase you around? In 0.0 you need docking rights to be able to dock at a station. The same thing should apply in FW. If taking a contested system in FW meant that your faction (and it's allies) were now able to use the station services while the enemy (and their allies) were unable to, then this would be a tangible, non-ISK reward!
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Cletus Graeme Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 03/12/2008 11:36:21 FW certainly needs more features and ingame rewards but a simple ISK reward is a bad idea. Why? (1) It's PvP not PvE - nowhere in EvE are you DIRECTLY rewarded with ISK for PvPing. As people have already mentioned, you must ransom/loot/salvage or take and hold assets (e.g pos/stations) to materially benefit from PvP - which is how it should be. Plexing. It's like running a mission but everyone knows where you are. It's a necessary part of FW, with an increased risk from enemy NPC's and militia attacking you, and no real reward. Originally by: Cletus Graeme (2) From a game mechanics POV, FW effectively provides you with a FREE, PERMANENT EMPIRE WAR DEC. It is therefore actually SAVING you ISK since before FW you had to PAY to be able to PvP in Empire. Actually it doesn't.. Don't forget that the Navy attacks enemy militias so there's no PvP in empire. Really all it does is give you some targets in lowsec that you can shoot without a sec hit, but in return denies you access to half of the available hisec. Originally by: Cletus Graeme Having said all that, some kind of material reward is DEFINITELY needed to make FW a worthwhile LONG TERM gameplay option, but this doesn't have to be ISK. This is true. However I liked the idea of bounties on enemy Navy NPC's because it'd be easy to implement and wouldn't have a chance of destabilizing some other market (like giving LP for plexing would) Originally by: Cletus Graeme IF an ISK reward is introduced into FW it MUST be linked to actual FW achievements (i.e plexes taken or ships killed) rather than a salary received as a militia member. My idea only gives you ISK if you kill enemy Navy NPC's in a plex, most likely in the process of capping it. So yes, it does fit with this requirement that I agree with. Originally by: Cletus Graeme Also, the size of such rewards would have to be balanced with those from PvE (especially LvL 4/5 mission running and 0.0 ratting). Do you mean the FW missions? Those are really just broken no matter what at this point, they need to be reworked. Or do you mean the rewards for FW can't give more than other ways of getting money. If it's the latter, then I agree. The plex rats in an unrestricted are like a hard level 4 mission that everyone can see, and no mission reward/bonus/LP, so I think just giving the NPC's bounties would properly compensate for the risk and time associated with plexing. Originally by: Cletus Graeme EvE already has plenty of ISK sources so the addition of yet another needs careful management to retain game balance. I doubt adding bounties on NPCs that only 2000-4000 players are actually able to collect will really destabilize much. I never actually said it was just "You get ISK in the militia" You have to be going out, plexing, and killing NPCs to get these bounties. Plexing puts you at risk in several ways, and should give a reward to compensate. Some people seem to be misinterpreting this thread as asking for an ISK faucet without any effort or risk. It might help if you went plexing sometime and saw what it was like. There's plenty of risk, between NPC's that can be as powerful as level 3-4 missions, everyone in system knowing where you are, and the inability to go to parts of hisec. I think that warrants some reward for doing stuff in the Militia. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
Ania Tsaluan	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:33:00 - [46] Though plex rats having bounties isn't a bad idea farming of plex rats would still be done somehow. My thought was to give a weekly or monthly pay, based on rank, kills, VP, etc. Exact numbers are still not really thought of, but nothing extraordinary. Perhaps a mix of both?
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:39:00 - [47] Originally by: Ania Tsaluan Though plex rats having bounties isn't a bad idea farming of plex rats would still be done somehow. My thought was to give a weekly or monthly pay, based on rank, kills, VP, etc. Exact numbers are still not really thought of, but nothing extraordinary. Perhaps a mix of both? Don't forget you have to be IN the enemy militia to get bounties on plex rats. You can't collect bounties on your own militia's plex rats or if you're not in a militia. Plex rats don't respawn Plexes show up on the overview so someone can come in and ruin your day The only Plexes that would be worth farming (Major/Unrestricted) require either a really heavy ship, which makes it hard to get there, or a group, which makes you get less ISK. Besides, even if people manage to farm the plexes, they'll be capping them in the process. To help that goal it could be changed so that the Faction won't pay those bounties unless the plex is capped. Adds a bit more risk, and makes people at least be useful while they're farming. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
EadTaes Minmatar N'Th'Rack Squadron Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.04 03:23:00 - [48] Hahaha reading this just wants to make me say it, nobody wants to hear it but hell i still wanna say it. I FREAKING TOLD YOU SO ON DAY 1!!!! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=789823 BTW i still stand by my original statement: I JUST WENT TO FREAKING HELL AND BACK AND ALL YOU GONNA GIVE ME IS A PEANUT!!!!!!!!!!!! Back then I thought of giving it more ISK but giving it more LP is the way to go. That way it make the faction runners buy LP items which they then need to sell on the market to make money. It's not an ISK dump it's and item dump that ultimately results in an ISK sink for the game. But CCP doesn'T care and wont care until people stop playing in the faction war. Proof is that since faction war came out their hasn't been one single dev blog about it. It was simply shoved under the carpet. It's a broken game mechanic that could have been fun but it isnt and wont be on the fix agenda for a while so i would recomend to find your self a new occupation in eve. IN 0.0 PEOPLE PVP TO TAKE OVER SPACE AND THUS MAKE MONEY. IN FACTION WARS PEOPLE PVP TO LOSE THEIR MONEY! 0.0 Policing, Econnomic Control & NPC Agents
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.04 06:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Verx Interis Edited by: Verx Interis on 03/12/2008 08:05:02 Originally by: Tasko Pal You can run the FW missions and sell the tags. There's your money. Oh yes. Have you ever DONE the FW missions? Did you even read the post? Yes. Yes. I even answered the question. Quote: I'll take a BC/BS 15 jumps through hostile lowsec, SOMEHOW survive, so that I can go to a mission that sets off a beacon for anyone in system to see, while I sit there helpless trying to kill NPCs, then spend even more time with a beacon telling anyone in system where I am while I loot the tags, then try to get back through the 15j of hostile lowsec to go sell the tags. Once it's possible to do that on a regular basis, I'll stop complaining. Well there you go. Do that on a regular basis. That's how you make isk with FW. Sure it's hard, but all I read here is whining. There's no reason CCP has to make FW a safe or consistent way of making isk.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:44:00 - [50] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I had always envisioned FW to be a device where by players would be PAID by the various factions and mercenaries to go to war for them against their opposing factions. I thought it would be epic and grand and have far reaching impact on the galactic map as systems changed hands and the galaxy was reshaped with tens of thousands of players flocking to FW to make ISK and wage war. I'd like to think we might one day get there - however hard to balance with the 'appeal' of 0.0, since it's the above with some half-assed POS spam tacked on (instead of a half-assed complex/bunker spam tacked on). We're definitely not going to get there when there is no incentive to engage in FW beyond PvP itself. After all, when last I checked, PvP was around before FW... Rewards for plexing would be good; a lot of the various militias don't see FW as anything more than PvP arenas without sec hits. Lots of new players are still in FW and want to get involved and fight, but the experienced players seem to be leaving after the initial novelty has worn off and the funds have run low. This is a sure sign that PvP by itself without any reward or reason to do it isn't enough for long-term interest. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Odizzido	Posted - 2008.12.04 12:20:00 - [51] I don't do FW because it would turn 1/2 my space into death. I'd rather not worry about what empire space I can or can't go in.
Verx Interis Amarr Modicus Dementis	Posted - 2008.12.04 17:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Tasko Pal Originally by: Verx Interis Edited by: Verx Interis on 03/12/2008 08:05:02 Originally by: Tasko Pal You can run the FW missions and sell the tags. There's your money. Oh yes. Have you ever DONE the FW missions? Did you even read the post? Yes. Yes. I even answered the question. Quote: I'll take a BC/BS 15 jumps through hostile lowsec, SOMEHOW survive, so that I can go to a mission that sets off a beacon for anyone in system to see, while I sit there helpless trying to kill NPCs, then spend even more time with a beacon telling anyone in system where I am while I loot the tags, then try to get back through the 15j of hostile lowsec to go sell the tags. Once it's possible to do that on a regular basis, I'll stop complaining. Well there you go. Do that on a regular basis. That's how you make isk with FW. Sure it's hard, but all I read here is whining. There's no reason CCP has to make FW a safe or consistent way of making isk. ...Think about what I have to do there. Think real hard. There's a very thin line between "hard" and "impossible" There is NO way that I can move an Apoc, Abaddon, Absol, or anything else I would use to run a level 4 mission through constantly camped lowsec. There is NO way to keep it safe or reliable. It's the same reason nobody runs missions in lowsec, except intensified by the long travel distances and the beacon. I find it hard to believe you've done FW missions, been in a militia, or even been in normal lowsec and still think that what I previously described is possible. It's just not. Running lowsec missions is remotely possible with constant attention when you don't have to go 15 jumps and you still have to be scanned out. Tell me how to continually dodge a gatecamp in a BC or heavier and I'll consider trying the missions. -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points.
Rudy U	Posted - 2008.12.05 10:40:00 - [53] I agree with Verx, we need more motivation to stay in the militia. Im not saying have to be a way to make money, but to cost the expenses.LPs are not a big thing either, but that could be also a plus, but i believe something like a military salary, where we can recover in some way something. Nothing wrong to get some money from our empires, finally we r fighting for them. And im sorry no all the pilots got a lot of money, like a lot of you guys do, and what's wrong if you richies get a little more, in fact who really need it are the rookies and entusiastic pilots who want to learn, fight and have fun, like me. Just say YES, and open petition about it.Nothing to loose.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.06 18:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Tasko Pal There's no reason CCP has to make FW a safe or consistent way of making isk. ...Think about what I have to do there. Think real hard. There's a very thin line between "hard" and "impossible" No offense, but that doesn't matter. I've played a little FW with a pvp alt I have including some missioning and never bothered to farm the tags either. I ended up getting hammered by RL and couldn't focus on it. I do remember that you can cut down massively on the jumps by using agents near the border. I had a four jump mission and a six jump level 1 mission, that I recall. And there are plenty of agents so you can shop around. And you can dock your bs in or near the system beforehand. The logistics doesn't need to be as hard as you make it be. You know where the missions will be, just scatter a few cheap bs throughout the region. Here's the deal. FW is meant to be a giant isk sink. Intended game mechanic. You're supposed to lose money. FW missions are meant to be run with gangs. They'll meet other gangs, people will die, isk will be blown. Having said that, maybe there should a more concrete incentive structure than the ranking system and faction standing gains yet still preserve the isk sink nature of FW. For example, the LP stores for the FW corps could have faction ships for reduced price. I think half price compared to the faction navies' LP stores is reasonable.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.06 19:03:00 - [55] Does regular Empire war fill your wallet? NO. Earn your money the same way you always did -- run missions or trade (or ninja salvage) or whatever -- and then go pew pew. The system is working as intended. Some of you may correctly point out that you can occasionally earn money in Empire war by ransoming enemy corporations. It's true, there's always profit to be made through social engineering. I see no reason why you can't do this in FW. For example pick a dead end FW system and "rent" it to the other side by lying on comms and telling your side that you're in that area and there's no enemies around. Might work for a while! ............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.12.11 12:45:00 - [56] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 11/12/2008 12:46:22 Originally by: Verx Interis Originally by: Cletus Graeme (2) From a game mechanics POV, FW effectively provides you with a FREE, PERMANENT EMPIRE WAR DEC. It is therefore actually SAVING you ISK since before FW you had to PAY to be able to PvP in Empire. Actually it doesn't.. Don't forget that the Navy attacks enemy militias so there's no PvP in empire. Really all it does is give you some targets in lowsec that you can shoot without a sec hit, but in return denies you access to half of the available hisec. You should check the Gallente Militia killboards. It's quite possible to kill war targets in enemy hi-sec. Yes, the NPC navy does attack you but they only web (they don't warp scramble) so if you are fast and/or tanked and deal good DPS you kill stuff and still get away. Admittedly, most of the FW action takes place in lowsec but then CCP added a whole new region (Black Rise) for it to take place in - that's MORE space, not less! As for the fact that being in a militia denies you access to enemy space - well you are at war! If you get sick of it then leave the militia and sign backup whenever you like (standings assumed). However, I do concur that the rewards currently don't match the penalties. *FW definitely needs more rewards to make it a LONG term gameplay option. Originally by:* Verx Interis Originally by: Cletus Graeme Having said all that, some kind of material reward is DEFINITELY needed to make FW a worthwhile LONG TERM gameplay option, but this doesn't have to be ISK. This is true. However I liked the idea of bounties on enemy Navy NPC's because it'd be easy to implement and wouldn't have a chance of destabilizing some other market (like giving LP for plexing would) Originally by: Cletus Graeme IF an ISK reward is introduced into FW it MUST be linked to actual FW achievements (i.e plexes taken or ships killed) rather than a salary received as a militia member. My idea only gives you ISK if you kill enemy Navy NPC's in a plex, most likely in the process of capping it. So yes, it does fit with this requirement that I agree with. Actually your suggestion is good and workable. It's simple, easy to implement and unlikely to have a huge impact - expecially if the plex rat bounties are kept low relative to other forms of ratting. Originally by: Verx Interis I never actually said it was just "You get ISK in the militia" I think your thread title is a bit misleading ;) While you did specifically make a suggestion about bounties for plex rats, you shouldn't be surprised to see your thread become a more general discussion about ISK rewards in FW if it has a title like that...
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.12.11 15:10:00 - [57] Faction Warfare should be rewarded with faction modules, faction ships, hell even faction uniforms for when Ambulation hits. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As

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