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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:30:00 -
[1]
I'm just about to start the biggest invention job yet. (I know not that big a deal but hey exciting for me) I the BPC's and the Datacores for 2 invention on a caracal. Should I use a decryptor or not? And if so where do I find them? Are they only on contract?
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Jag'Deo
Gallente
Constructive Influence
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:33:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jag''Deo on 03/12/2008 22:35:44
yes use a decryptor and no they are on the marketdecryptor info
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Copying Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:45:00 -
[3]
No. Don't use decryptors unless you know what you are doing, and you don't. If you knew what which decryptors does, when and how and under which conditions you wouldn't be asking questions, because it would be pretty obvious for you, if you should use it or not, and which one.
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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:45:00 -
[4]
ok so should I be using something like a Installation guide to give me the best odds of a sucessful job? Or maybe just a user manual so the BPC stats are better? Or is this all just personal preferance?
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Copying Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:57:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: ScottyDosn'tKnow
ok so should I be using something like a Installation guide to give me the best odds of a sucessful job? Or maybe just a user manual so the BPC stats are better? Or is this all just personal preferance?
You should be using a proper tool (say, excel table, or EveMeep, or some other tool, there are plenty of free ones around here), to calculate potential profits you get from an invention job, and comparing them with costs of the decryptor, datacores, etc.
It is not a question of personal preferences; it's a question of money. All decryptors are profitable in one situation and pure loss in others, depending on current prices on them and situation on market.
Quite honestly, you are a second person in half an hour I'm trying to explain this on this forum, and I kind of starting to feel like bitting heads off. :)
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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.03 23:08:00 -
[6]
Edited by: ScottyDosn''tKnow on 03/12/2008 23:11:45
I know what a decryptor does and have a good idea but I came to the forum to ask for *gasp* help. You saying stuff like your last 2 posts is pointless. I know there are tools out there to help and there is research required on my part that can't and will not be supplied. But for the specific scenerio I have supplied I am asking what you would do.
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Bartom Dekkar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.12.03 23:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: ScottyDosn'tKnow
ok so should I be using something like a Installation guide to give me the best odds of a sucessful job? Or maybe just a user manual so the BPC stats are better? Or is this all just personal preferance?
I guess how much profit you stand to make could be considered a personal preference. You really shouldn't be doing this unless you understand the variables and costs. Do you even understand how much profit you stand to make, taking invention chance into account?
Also, if you are stretching your resources to do two ship invention jobs, you probably shouldn't do it unless you are just treating it as gambling. The odds are low enough that you could easily get two failures. I would suggest having enough capital for at least 20 jobs to have a decent chance at breaking even.
A better idea might be to do some research to find a profitable module you could make to build up your capital a bit before tackling ships.
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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.03 23:17:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ScottyDosn''tKnow on 03/12/2008 23:17:24
I AM new to invention but not new to eve. This character is my main who makes plenty of money off 0.0 ratting and missions. I've been doing plenty of research into modules but have just started looking into ships for invention. AT least 1 of the cerbs will be for personal use so obviously that will cut into and "gambling" profits I make. With the above info I am thinking of the Decryptor that will give me the best chance to success. Also just to double check, decryptors can only be used on 1 invention job right?
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Copying Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.03 23:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ScottyDosn'tKnow
Edited by: ScottyDosn''tKnow on 03/12/2008 23:11:45
I know what a decryptor does and have a good idea but I came to the forum to ask for *gasp* help. You saying stuff like your last 2 posts is pointless.
You know, I've also read the unedited reply - the one where you were advising me to keep my big mouth shut and so on, and thought, "there is the guy who wouldn't recognize *gasp* help if it hit him on the head with a hammer, which, accidentally, is exactly the kind of help he is in need of." Isn't it great that we are all civil and friendly here and don't write things like this to each other? :)
I was (and is!) genuinely trying to help, and NOBODY will be able to give you any better advise than I've given you. My replies aren't pointless; they are what I did when I was in your place, and was preparing my first invention jobs.
>>I know there are tools out there to help and there is research required on my part that can't and will not be supplied. But for the specific scenerio I have supplied I am asking what you would do.<<
For your specific scenario: for caracal, there are 3 viable options - no decryptor, +5 runs decryptor and +10 runs decryptor.
It is impossible to judge which one will be the most profitable, and even profitable at all, without actually starting an evemeep, getting last data from the game or Eve-central, and doing the cost-benefit analysis for all 3 scenarios.
However, one thing I would most certainly advise - run no less than 5 invention jobs at one time, and better 9-10. It will help you to avoid frustration when your jobs will consistently fail (and they will). Do not run +10 decryptor unless you run at least 10-20 invention jobs, it is very profitable, but you have the lowest chance per each given job. If you insist only on 2 runs, then use +5 decryptors, but considering the highest prices on them, you may be better off spending same money to buy 10+ bpcs and datacores and run 10+ invention jobs without decryptors. Again, I can't know which is better without crunching the numbers, and it's exactly the situation, where "research is required and will not be supplied".
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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.04 00:05:00 -
[10]
To CM I realized what I originally posted was across the line and I do appologize. That is why i retracted it shortly after. Thank you for your input. I just get frustrated with the seeming lack of help on the forums which is why I do as much research as possible. I've decided to try it without a decryptor as it is officially "gambling".
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Carniflex
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.12.04 07:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ScottyDosn'tKnow
To CM I realized what I originally posted was across the line and I do appologize. That is why i retracted it shortly after. Thank you for your input. I just get frustrated with the seeming lack of help on the forums which is why I do as much research as possible. I've decided to try it without a decryptor as it is officially "gambling".
The suggestion to use Excel sheet or invention calculator was valid one. No one can do that for you as they do not know all the needed details (skill levels, price you get your BPC for, datacore prices for you, etc). Too many variables to just give you valid rule of thumb that would work reliably.
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RaTTuS
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.12.04 09:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: RaTTuS on 04/12/2008 09:13:29
Decryptors
Chance
will help
--
BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
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Posted - 2008.12.04 11:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: ScottyDosn'tKnow
Edited by: ScottyDosn''tKnow on 03/12/2008 23:17:24
AT least 1 of the cerbs will be for personal use so obviously that will cut into and "gambling" profits I make.
Please realise that
*with only 2 invention jobs (ie two bpcs) you may not get anything from invention.
*Even with the best decryptors on both jobs, you may not get anything from invention.
*Even with 10 bpcs and the best decryptors, you may not get anything.
Invention is chance based, having the right skills, and decryptors will help improve your luck but you will still fail on some invention jobs.
If you want to get a min of 2 ships back from your effort, I suggest that you run atleast 8 bpcs. I would advise you not using decryptors until you have determined that you know what you are doing and you are comfortable that you are using the right decryptor. If you want to use decryptors then use the cheapest ones on the market which usually give a ME/PE improvement but not additional runs.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2008.12.04 11:45:00 -
[14]
yup... some days I get nowt... some days I'll get one or two from a six run batch. Last week I got five recon BPC's out of six.
You roll the dice, you take yer chances.
Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Margot Fortain
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.04 12:34:00 -
[15]
The others above have attempted to help you, but I will join in and try to explain.
Decrytors - Costs vary wildly depending on demand/supply for a partitular type. Anything from 2 to 20+ million each. The cost of a decrptor and what it does needs to be factored into some kind of calculation on your part. (or use one of the free tools). Some give extra runs in exchange for the resultant BPC's needing more materials to build the item and a lower chance of Invention sucess, oters give different trade offs.
For example using a +9 run decryptor on a Recon/Hac will give u a -6 Me and 9 or 10 run (depending on whether you used a max run BPC) and on average will take 5.75 tries before you suceed in getting a T2 BPC (no decrpytor gives -4 ME and 1 run T2 BPC and take 3 attemps).
You need to work out how much it costs to do the above inventions per ship and whether the additional burden of materials over the possibly cheaper invention cost is worth it.
And i can tell you that the choice whether to use a decryptor and which one to use depends wildly from ship type to ship type and even from one races ships to another. Even a change in moon mineral prices from one week to another could change the choice.
Long story short. see the above post tbh. You need to run the numbers yourself. Someone could tell you what to use on a particlular ship at a point in time but they wont, its a competitive market out there and producing ships cheaper than the competition is important.
Obviously if you are just playing the game and dont care about costs, just pick one and live with the results.
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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.04 18:00:00 -
[16]
Thanks for all the tips guys. I know most of it and here are the results: I decided to not use a decryptor and "gambled" I ran both jobs and came up empty. Oh well. dealer hit blackjack I guess...
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Kalidia
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Posted - 2008.12.04 18:35:00 -
[17]
If you look at this project as a way to learn and test invention for fun go ahead, I would however be very hesitant of expecting any profit what so ever on the scale u are refering to (even if u decide to use ships for personal use u would still have to consider the buycost of ship on market compared to buildcost of ship). All ppl doing invention for profitt go huge and to maximize profitt u should also consider building the ships from the invented bpc's and to even further maximize build the components needed to build the ships etc. So lets say u invent 2 jobs thats allot of work for little profitt. However if u do allot of jobs with +9 decryptors and maxrun bpc's and wind up with 4-5*10 run bpc's then things start to add up. Hope this makes sence in any way.
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ScottyDosn'tKnow
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.04 18:42:00 -
[18]
Yes it does and I've been doing exactly that with various modules as I get my various science skills up. This is my 1st look into ships so don't mind a gamble for now. Eventually I will be a tycoon like the rest of you. 
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Flybye
Rex Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.04 21:57:00 -
[19]
I lost 100mil trying to make a Golem BPC a while back when I first started inventing. Get the skills that are related to the datacores up. This will also aid a bit in getting that invention BPC.
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Lucy Lucy
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Posted - 2008.12.04 22:56:00 -
[20]
The definition of getting skills up = Datacore Skills at Level 4 for me. Both of them.
YMMV
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.12.04 23:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lucy Lucy
The definition of getting skills up = Datacore Skills at Level 4 for me. Both of them.
YMMV
I didn't touch inventing till I had the data core skills to 5 and encryption at 4 going to 5. Maybe that was over kill 
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Copying Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.05 10:43:00 -
[22]
Overkill. I've started profitable invention with all skills at 3. Now they are at 4, and I'm not planning to get them to 5 - cost/benefit analysis I've done says it's not worth it, at least for me. Your opinion may differ.
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Bartom Dekkar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2008.12.05 13:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Copying Machine
Overkill. I've started profitable invention with all skills at 3. Now they are at 4, and I'm not planning to get them to 5 - cost/benefit analysis I've done says it's not worth it, at least for me. Your opinion may differ.
That works for me as well. If my profit margin is so slim as to require skills to 5 then I should really be training the skills to get into a different product line anyway.
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