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Amarr Navy Multifrequency vs Conflag for medium pulse lasers

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Orexis Kirhal Amarr Venom Pointe Industries	Posted - 2008.12.04 01:55:00 - [1] Ok... so even with medium pulse specialization at V, the DPS is almost unnoticable between the two. Faction has TWICE the tracking, and takes alot less capacitor. Now I know Faction and Tech 2 often one's a little bit better, but this is rediculous, there's pretty much no reason to ever buy a conflag, especially since the faction doesn't require skills. The only real difference I see is that conflag has a bit more percentage towards thermal than em damage. Is this the main reason why anyone uses conflag over Amarr Navy? and surely for anything you're having a problem tracking you'd go faction anyways cause you'd hit it alot more?
Loree Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.04 01:56:00 - [2] scorch, scorch and more scorch. A touch of MF then more scorch.
Ess Erbe Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.04 01:57:00 - [3] Edited by: Ess Erbe on 04/12/2008 01:56:47 The only reason to ever use Conflagration is if you can't get faction multi. The fact that it's buildable is its only virtue. And green.
Poast Warrior Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.04 01:57:00 - [4] People use conflag because they can build it. Beyond that, there's no reason to use it.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:14:00 - [5] Conflag does more Therm than EM damage, but the drawbacks are not worth it when compared to Faction Multifreq. It is cheaper, and it is buildable, however. Scorch, however, is one of the greatest Amarrian things ever *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Slayton Ford STK Scientific N.A.S.A	Posted - 2008.12.04 02:39:00 - [6] As a Mini pilot who can now fly T2 fitted pulse Harbingers, I have to say that using Scorch against the Gall HACs is the next best thing to sex. I almost melted a corpmates Deimos when I first got t2 med pulses. --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer...
Shereza	Posted - 2008.12.04 04:50:00 - [7] Now, I'm curious. Guristas rats are considered the bane of laser ships and thermal hits them a lot harder than EM does by a goodly amount. Considering this and the fact that they tend to manuever like bricks, what with them being built off of Caldari ships and all I can peg their cruisers with large railguns at 15-20km, would using conflagration crystals against Guristas rats be more effective than using navy multifrequency crystals? More effective in terms of both effective DPS period and effective DPS in light of the tracking and cap. consumption penalties I mean. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.12.04 04:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Shereza Now, I'm curious. Guristas rats are considered the bane of laser ships and thermal hits them a lot harder than EM does by a goodly amount. Considering this and the fact that they tend to manuever like bricks, what with them being built off of Caldari ships and all I can peg their cruisers with large railguns at 15-20km, would using conflagration crystals against Guristas rats be more effective than using navy multifrequency crystals? More effective in terms of both effective DPS period and effective DPS in light of the tracking and cap. consumption penalties I mean. It would depend on a number of things, but generally speaking the answer is no. On most rats, once in range the damage would be more than adequate for the task at hand. However, guristas rats are balanced for the range friendly gallente and caldari PVE ships and in missions they tend to spend a great deal of time well outside the range of a pulse laser using anything but long ranged ammo. Time spent maneuvering into range would more than negate the potential slim advantage of hammering them with gobs of DPS against their second weakest and strongest resist.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.04 06:05:00 - [9] Only reason to use it is that it's cheaper. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.12.04 06:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Terianna Eri Only reason to use it is that it's cheaper. You buy t2 guns. Then t2 fit. Probably even t2 ship. And then you are too skint to pay 50% more for AN ammo instead of conflag? Lol.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.04 06:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Terianna Eri Only reason to use it is that it's cheaper. You buy t2 guns. Then t2 fit. Probably even t2 ship. And then you are too skint to pay 50% more for AN ammo instead of conflag? Lol. Excuse me? I use AN MF in my ships o_O. On cheap ships (say, Omens) I carry Conflag instead because it saves a few million which is significant compared to the cost of the ship + fit. Also I use Conflag in my mission Apocalypse sometimes because it's cheap, technically does more damage, and still tracks well enough to hit BS (particularly if they've spawned close to me and are flying away at 0 m/s transversal). But, as I said, the only real reason to use it over navy MF is price. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.12.04 06:53:00 - [12] 7 amarr medium multis are damn expensive for a unrigged harbinger, i rather buy the conflags. - Boosters and PirateProfessions
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.12.04 07:03:00 - [13] Actually, Conflag has alot of extra dps, just EFT warriors don't realize why :) Some things melt to Conflag that dont even notice Amarr MF. :) /Riv Fakeedit: Yes, the tracking penalty is harsh, but the rewards are awesome.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.04 07:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Rivqua Actually, Conflag has alot of extra dps, just EFT warriors don't realize why :) Some things melt to Conflag that dont even notice Amarr MF. :) /Riv Fakeedit: Yes, the tracking penalty is harsh, but the rewards are awesome. Conflagration M: 14 EM damage, 14 Therm damage AN Multifrequency M: 16.1 EM damage, 11.5 Therm damage I suppose if you're shooting at a target with very high EM resists and considerably less thermal resists, then yes, the extra thermal damage from conflag will help... But how often does that happen? How many targets are there for which: a: the extra thermal damage adds significant DPS after targets resists are accounted for b: the target isn't going to just melt outright anyway c: the target is moving such that you're not losing more dps to tracking than you're gaining by switching targets? I have noticed that Conflag melts serpentis BS significantly faster than AN MF does, but that seems like sort of a limited niche for the ammo. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.12.04 07:31:00 - [15] Standard PVP tank is 2x Plate (or 1 on BC/Cruiser), 2x EANM, DCU. Thermal is about 25% lower then EM resist. so, you'll have a pretty decent dps buff, in the order of close to 15%, which pretty much what T2 ammo should be Standard > 15% to Faction > 15% to T2. It's not niche, its about 95% of the pvp encouters we have, that have that type of tank. That's what most weapons are balanced around, basic resists + omni resist ontop of that. /Riv
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.04 08:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Rivqua so, you'll have a pretty decent dps buff, in the order of close to 15%, which pretty much what T2 ammo should be Standard > 15% to Faction > 15% to T2. Standard armor EM resist: 50% Standard armor Thermal resist: 35% AN MF: 16.1 EM, 11.5 TH, 27.6 base damage Conflag: 14 EM, 14 TH, 28 base damage 27.6 / 28 = 0.9857 AN MF deals 98.57% of the raw damage of Conflag // Conflag has a 1.45% damage increase AN MF against armor: 16.1 * (1 - 0.5) + 11.5 (1 - 0.35) = 15.525 Conflag against armor: 14 * (1 - 0.5) + 14 (1 - 0.35) = 16.1 15.525/16.1 = 0.9643 An MF deals 96.43% of the damage of Conflag against armor // Conflag has a 3.704% damage increase (Resist mods are irrelevant - they will reduce the EM and Thermal damage by the same amount, and the fractions will remain intact, as you know) There is indeed a damage buff from using conflag, and the damage increase is in fact twice as much against armor (3.7% advantage compared to 1.45% advantage), but it's not 15% as you suggest. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.12.04 08:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Rivqua so, you'll have a pretty decent dps buff, in the order of close to 15%, which pretty much what T2 ammo should be Standard > 15% to Faction > 15% to T2. Standard armor EM resist: 50% Standard armor Thermal resist: 35% AN MF: 16.1 EM, 11.5 TH, 27.6 base damage Conflag: 14 EM, 14 TH, 28 base damage 27.6 / 28 = 0.9857 AN MF deals 98.57% of the raw damage of Conflag // Conflag has a 1.45% damage increase AN MF against armor: 16.1 * (1 - 0.5) + 11.5 (1 - 0.35) = 15.525 Conflag against armor: 14 * (1 - 0.5) + 14 (1 - 0.35) = 16.1 15.525/16.1 = 0.9643 An MF deals 96.43% of the damage of Conflag against armor // Conflag has a 3.704% damage increase (Resist mods are irrelevant - they will reduce the EM and Thermal damage by the same amount, and the fractions will remain intact, as you know) There is indeed a damage buff from using conflag, and the damage increase is in fact twice as much against armor (3.7% advantage compared to 1.45% advantage), but it's not 15% as you suggest. You are correect Terianna, the dmg is more on the order of ~4% increase, but I still think that's not negligible, especially against specific targets, like Minnie T2 resists. Also, if you are shooting an active tank, and you are doing 150 dps, and he is tanking 100 dps. , if you add 4% to that, by swapping ammo, you go from 50dmg going through to 56dmg going through after tank, that's a 12% increase. But you are perfectly correct on the ammo math, I was pointing out that there are situations where you really want to use the T2 ammo, and it shouldn't be disregarded on basis of EFT numbers. /Riv
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:40:00 - [18] Note that Conflag will kill your tracking, so your actual dps will probably be lower than with ANMF. -----------
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.04 09:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Rivqua You are correect Terianna, the dmg is more on the order of ~4% increase, but I still think that's not negligible, especially against specific targets, like Minnie T2 resists. Also, if you are shooting an active tank, and you are doing 150 dps, and he is tanking 100 dps. , if you add 4% to that, by swapping ammo, you go from 50dmg going through to 56dmg going through after tank, that's a 12% increase. But you are perfectly correct on the ammo math, I was pointing out that there are situations where you really want to use the T2 ammo, and it shouldn't be disregarded on basis of EFT numbers. Even against Minnie T2, yeah, they get a huge bonus to EM resist, but they also get a slightly less huge bonus to therm resist... so maybe the damage increase will be maybe 4%-ish. My point isn't that there are no reasons to use Conflag in PVP, but it's hard to justify me buying another 5-8 crystals (depending on ship) of it for every laser boat I fly for a small damage increase in a very specific situation, in my opinion. Also, transversal makes you suck hard, with heavy pulse laser IIs, 226 transversal (cruiser target) does nasty things to your conflag damage (about a 18% damage cut) but only about 5% damage loss if using navy MF instead. (assuming 7.5km optimal) (On the other hand, it tracks 350m3 sig targets moving at 175 m/s perfectly well, so it's not like it's destroying your tracking utterly... but you're basically giving your opponents a free, unstacking, unbonused TD on you) Basically what I'm saying is that an awful lot of things have to go right in order for Conflag to give you a meaningful advantage over navy MF, and even if they do the advantage isn't even that big. Conflag still works just fine against larger targets, but so does navy MF. It's not like I'm going to kick you out of my fleet if you load conflag into a gun, but I will ask, if you can use T2 pulse, why you wouldn't have scorch loaded most of the time anyway :P __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.12.04 11:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/12/2008 11:17:02 Well someone used the "conflag is cheaper" argument. Did you use amount of the shots you can make in those calculations? T2 ammo has 1000 shots average (100 to infinity) faction ammo has exactly 4000 shots Thus unless you plan on dying before you swap 2 sets on conflag AN ammo is already better. EDIT: but there is one thing where i liked conflag: npcing guristas ;p
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.04 12:22:00 - [21] Conflag could/should just be removed from the game. Only people who end up using it is people who don't know better. You'd be better off ejecting them as chaff rather than shoot with them. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"

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