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Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:13:00 - [1] as title, 10 seconds to reload any weapon system thats not a laser, across all sizes doesn't make sense! 10 seconds is very important in the heat of battle esp for smaller ships, which ammos effecting more than just range and dmg with t2 switching is more inportant than ever! fuss over nothing? discuss.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:16:00 - [2] Originally by: Dr Fighter fuss over nothing? Definately!
Kilrex	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:21:00 - [3] Would make a great skill to add to reduce reload times.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Kilrex Would make a great skill to add to reduce reload times. Hmm neat.
Sarciss SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:37:00 - [5] I've always wondered why lazers get it instantly and the rest of us have to wait 10 seconds.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Kilrex Would make a great skill to add to reduce reload times. I like. Its one of the many things that gimps artillery in a long fight There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:43:00 - [7] For smaller ships, a decrease in loading times makes sense, as autoload mechanisms in faster-than-light starships would have had some advanced technology applied over time. In larger ships, 10 seconds to reload sedan-sized projectiles is quite the feat. But a magazine size of 11? C'mon, the boats are big enough to have a much larger capacity loading mechanism.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.05 15:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Sarciss I've always wondered why lazers get it instantly and the rest of us have to wait 10 seconds. Because the high optimal, low falloff trend that lasers have means that you have to change crystals frequently if you want to maintain max damage against a target moving towards or away from you, and giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Sarciss I've always wondered why lazers get it instantly and the rest of us have to wait 10 seconds. Because the high optimal, low falloff trend that lasers have means that you have to change crystals frequently if you want to maintain max damage against a target moving towards or away from you, and giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan. I agree it would be mad to add a reload time to lasers, but remeber "giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan" while being bad for lasers esspecially is currently bad for other guns too.
NoNah	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:00:00 - [10] Average reload times just got shortened by a decent couple of seconds of Quantum Rise, and you already want more? Parrots, commence! Postcount: 162734
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:04:00 - [11] Would be nice for missiles and rails, so it would worth bring more than one type of ammo.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Sarciss I've always wondered why lazers get it instantly and the rest of us have to wait 10 seconds. Because the high optimal, low falloff trend that lasers have means that you have to change crystals frequently if you want to maintain max damage against a target moving towards or away from you, and giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan. I agree it would be mad to add a reload time to lasers, but remeber "giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan" while being bad for lasers esspecially is currently bad for other guns too. Given the general argument, the reload times are bad for ALL weapons. Railguns too are cursed with a high optimal and low falloff, but without the ease of transitioning between ammo types it generally only makes sense to carry a handful of different types. In my zealot for example I bring MF, Standard, Radio and Aurora. In my harpy (I know it's an entirely different beast) I bring AM and Spike. If I can't reach a target with AM it's probably beyond the range of anything else anyway and the few km difference between each ammo type means that ineviatably you just swap anyway. Then you have the inevitable reload when your weapon runs out of ammo. In smaller fights this is more of a theoritical problem, but once an engagement last more than a few minutes reloads start to take place. In the case of guns, a player might lose as many as 8 - 10 volleys (For small rapid fire weapons) or as few as 2 (in the case of 1400mm howitzers). This gives an odd advantage to laser systems. Yes, lasers have their downsides, but let's face it - so does every other weapon. I'm not proposing removing the loading speed but why not have rigs or modules or skills that let non laser users reduce their reload speeds?
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:22:00 - [13] The idea for a skill to reduce the reload time is IMO, brilliant. Maybe not so it reduced the time to zero like lazers, but certinly upto 50% faster, so 5 seconds. The only issue with this is that smaller ships generally need to change ammo more often, and frig pilots are usually the least skilled. An arty fires a massive shell, and has a very low clip size and a very long rof. Why would a blaster on a frig take the same 10 seconds to move a new clip in. weapons systems are nicly ballenced in the ways they work, im supprised that they all are so similer when it comes to reloading.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:26:00 - [14] Especially as lasers mostly have better stats than rails and arties even without adding this better reload time in.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Sarciss I've always wondered why lazers get it instantly and the rest of us have to wait 10 seconds. Because the high optimal, low falloff trend that lasers have means that you have to change crystals frequently if you want to maintain max damage against a target moving towards or away from you, and giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan. I agree it would be mad to add a reload time to lasers, but remeber "giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan" while being bad for lasers esspecially is currently bad for other guns too. Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Sarciss I've always wondered why lazers get it instantly and the rest of us have to wait 10 seconds. Because the high optimal, low falloff trend that lasers have means that you have to change crystals frequently if you want to maintain max damage against a target moving towards or away from you, and giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan. I agree it would be mad to add a reload time to lasers, but remeber "giving it a 10 second reload time to change crystals would pretty much destroy that plan" while being bad for lasers esspecially is currently bad for other guns too. Not really. Minmatar operate mostly in falloff so their range doesn't really change with ammo type (barrage and hail excepted), and I tend to just have barrage loaded most of the time anyway. Blasters have little reason to use anything except close range ammo anyway. Lasers are the only gun where I find myself needing to change ammo to obtain maximum damage, especially if I'm just using stock T1. Or, rather, I believe lasers were designed so that, as your target approaches you, you can keep changing crystals between shots to get maximum damage out of their approach time, EG: use radio at long range, when they get a few KM closer swap to microwave, then infrared, then standard... etc etc. The only reason why you can theoretically do that is that crystals swap instantly. Other guns simply don't have as much to gain by doing that, IMHO, and the unique ability of lasers to swap crystals instantly helps contribute to Amarr "mid-range dominance." Although it would be nice if swapping ammo took less time, since nowadays it's generally not worth the 13 seconds of lost DPS to change ammo. Still, weapon grouping did shave off several seconds of the ammo switching time (since you've only to reload one now instead of, say, seven)... although a skill to reduce it would be kinda cool. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Elhina Novae Sky's Edge	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:34:00 - [16] New skill that decreases reload time by 1 second/per level, at Rank 4? ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
FU22 Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:40:00 - [17] i think crystals reload a lot quicker because theres only one charge? in everything else theres more then just one charge in it? could just be me being err yeah
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:47:00 - [18] Edited by: Diomidis on 05/12/2008 17:54:24 Edited by: Diomidis on 05/12/2008 17:48:53 Originally by: NoNah Average reload times just got shortened by a decent couple of seconds of Quantum Rise, and you already want more? For Gods shake, listen to the man... And do not "mix" laser's crystal changes, with reloading - cause it's a different thing. Before QR, in order to change crystals in a laser weapon platform, weather to "reload" the same crystal that worn off or to switch optimal range/dmg output you needed about 2-3 sec per gun, as either way, you had to manually click - click - click and wait for each and every turret. So in average each amarr vessel/laser boat in general, needed more than 10 sec to switch crystals. I won't count the often case were a T2/faction used crystal would be claimed by more than one turret and the system would leave 1-2 turrets unloaded for you to click and browse and wait even more... Lasers do not auto-reload worn off crystals, while turrets and missile launchers auto-reload at their clips' ending, and can also do it with a keyb shortcut (Ctrl+R) = that's one key press for all their ammo hungry guns/missile to reload in 10 sec. Also do not forget the slow RoF arties have: you get huge alpha and you trade away RoF advantages. >10 sec RoF with 1400mm means that 10 rounds will be depleted after ~ 90secs or 1.5 minute. The Abaddon - another hi-alpha (with higher dps, yes) will cap out in the same time firing it's guns. That illustrates how CCP thinks when balances some stuff...it's not perfect, it's not equally balanced - nor should be, cause that would kill variety - but there's thought behind it nevertheless. Especially for 1400mm arties - the OP uses as an example - ammo reloading on paper lasts LESS than the time interval between shots...a skill-reduced duration of 5 sec, would lead to two cases: 1) No real advantage other than a slight dps gain - about 5% I estimate. 2) Broken mechanics could allow manually reloading 1 round a time and repeating the fire-single round reload - fire sequence that would equal to a 5-6 sec RoF Wild scenario - still... With QR and weapon grouping, ammo and crystal switching is way easier - but still laser platforms cannot "abuse" instant crystal changing as some suggest. Also, a 50% reduction in weapon reloading times is huge IMHO...I could justify a 25%, but then I would also require crystal grouping for amarr weapons...and make that easy to bind into shortcuts - say: Alt-1 loads set 1 [7x close range AN MF L], Alt-2 for set 2 [7x long range T2] etc...doesn't that fit the "advantage" description so many claim that lasers already have? If it's there, I won't to see it. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:00:00 - [19] Originally by: Diomidis Amarr fanboy crap
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Diomidis For Gods shake, listen to the man... And do not "mix" laser's crystal changes, with reloading - cause it's a different thing. Before QR, in order to change crystals in a laser weapon platform, weather to "reload" the same crystal that worn off or to switch optimal range/dmg output you needed about 2-3 sec per gun, as either way, you had to manually click - click - click and wait for each and every turret. So in average each amarr vessel/laser boat in general, needed more than 10 sec to switch crystals. I won't count the often case were a T2/faction used crystal would be claimed by more than one turret and the system would leave 1-2 turrets unloaded for you to click and browse and wait even more... Lasers do not auto-reload worn off crystals, while turrets and missile launchers auto-reload at their clips' ending, and can also do it with a keyb shortcut (Ctrl+R) = that's one key press for all their ammo hungry guns/missile to reload in 10 sec. Also do not forget the slow RoF arties have: you get huge alpha and you trade away RoF advantages. >10 sec RoF with 1400mm means that 10 rounds will be depleted after ~ 90secs or 1.5 minute. The Abaddon - another hi-alpha (with higher dps, yes) will cap out in the same time firing it's guns. That illustrates how CCP thinks when balances some stuff...it's not perfect, it's not equally balanced - nor should be, cause that would kill variety - but there's thought behind it nevertheless. Especially for 1400mm arties - the OP uses as an example - ammo reloading on paper lasts LESS than the time interval between shots...a skill-reduced duration of 5 sec, would lead to two cases: 1) No real advantage other than a slight dps gain - about 5% I estimate. 2) Broken mechanics could allow manually reloading 1 round a time and repeating the fire-single round reload - fire sequence that would equal to a 5-6 sec RoF Wild scenario - still... With QR and weapon grouping, ammo and crystal switching is way easier - but still laser platforms cannot "abuse" instant crystal changing as some suggest. Also, a 50% reduction in weapon reloading times is huge IMHO...I could justify a 25%, but then I would also require crystal grouping for amarr weapons...and make that easy to bind into shortcuts - say: Alt-1 loads set 1 [7x close range AN MF L], Alt-2 for set 2 [7x long range T2] etc...doesn't that fit the "advantage" description so many claim that lasers already have? If it's there, I won't to see it. I was never accusing the laser user of "abusing" the sytem. Mid ranged firepower superiority is what Amarr are supposed to excell at afterall, and that often means carrying several types of crystals and so forth. My basic point is not that this option doesn't exist for other gun users, it's quite simply a matter of the time is so long currently that the lost DPS swapping between ammo types is rarely worth the increase in damage unless you're swapping from long ranged ammo (say Iron) to a much shorter ranged ammo (say plutonium). Having a skill/rig/module that reduces this is not even slightly unfair in the grand scheme of things. Afterall, even if the reload speed is reduced the actual impact of the change will still require active player thought and intervention to capitalize upon all while sacrificing SOMETHING in return (be it time spent training the skill, or the consumption of one or more rig/module slots). Also, pointing to the fact that crystals do not auto-reload is kinda silly. Afterall, crystals wear out somewhere between 1,000 and 4,000 shots meaning the inconvience is incredibly slight, especially now when there is but a single slot that must be manually reloaded and the change happens instantly. The QR changes and weapon grouphing have helped the laser ships immensely when it comes to capitalizing on the variable range of their weapons.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:23:00 - [21] I think this is reasonable, considering that now we have weapon grouping in effect, there's a much reduced load on the servers. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Dr Fighter as title, 10 seconds to reload any weapon system thats not a laser, across all sizes doesn't make sense! 10 seconds is very important in the heat of battle esp for smaller ships, which ammos effecting more than just range and dmg with t2 switching is more inportant than ever! fuss over nothing? discuss. Thats the whole point of lasers. Fast ammo switch. Now you wanna make all races the same? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dr Fighter as title, 10 seconds to reload any weapon system thats not a laser, across all sizes doesn't make sense! 10 seconds is very important in the heat of battle esp for smaller ships, which ammos effecting more than just range and dmg with t2 switching is more inportant than ever! fuss over nothing? discuss. Thats the whole point of lasers. Fast ammo switch. Now you wanna make all races the same? Really, the whole point of lasers is to deliver absolute GOBS of damage at mid range - firepower superiority and on a gun per gun basis they do that incredibly well. The rapid crystal changes facilitate that goal nicely because it allows the laser user to rapidly choose the optimal crystal and ensure they operate at maximum effeciency. I don't advocate making ammo instantly switch like lasers do, but rather have a skill/module/rig that reduces the time. If a sacrifice is made, especially in a fitting then I see no reason, balance or otherwise to deny such a change.
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.12.05 18:49:00 - [24] or maybe something like small guns : 6 sec med guns : 8 secs large guns : 10 secs Xlarge : 15 secs
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.12.05 20:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Trevor Warps or maybe something like small guns : 6 sec med guns : 8 secs large guns : 10 secs Xlarge : 15 secs This sounds reasonable methinks. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story
n0thing omen.	Posted - 2008.12.05 21:19:00 - [26] /signed. would like to see skill that affects that. ---
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.05 21:24:00 - [27] I think we should wait and see how QR gun groupings change things before rushing off to 'fix' something that has been in game since the begining (post beta) ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.05 21:39:00 - [28] Lets change reload to 5sec ,and see how that change ammo types used for rails and arties + missiles.
Yuki Hayabara	Posted - 2008.12.05 23:53:00 - [29] Originally by: Diomidis Especially for 1400mm arties - the OP uses as an example - ammo reloading on paper lasts LESS than the time interval between shots...a skill-reduced duration of 5 sec, would lead to two cases: 1) No real advantage other than a slight dps gain - about 5% I estimate. 2) Broken mechanics could allow manually reloading 1 round a time and repeating the fire-single round reload - fire sequence that would equal to a 5-6 sec RoF Wild scenario - still... Point 2 doesn't hold up, the guns always first finish their firing cycle before reloading. That's around 20 seconds of 0 DPS depending on the refire rate of your guns. They should increase clip size on artys, the reload times maybe could do with some tweaking, but the clip size is the main issue when it comes to artys IMO.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.06 00:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Yuki Hayabara Originally by: Diomidis Especially for 1400mm arties - the OP uses as an example - ammo reloading on paper lasts LESS than the time interval between shots...a skill-reduced duration of 5 sec, would lead to two cases: 1) No real advantage other than a slight dps gain - about 5% I estimate. 2) Broken mechanics could allow manually reloading 1 round a time and repeating the fire-single round reload - fire sequence that would equal to a 5-6 sec RoF Wild scenario - still... Point 2 doesn't hold up, the guns always first finish their firing cycle before reloading. That's around 20 seconds of 0 DPS depending on the refire rate of your guns. They should increase clip size on artys, the reload times maybe could do with some tweaking, but the clip size is the main issue when it comes to artys IMO. then how about allow for reloads while fireing - but they go through their 10 second reload time at the end - so: switch from Spike to AM on your gunss, gun fires, goes through the cycle, automaticall begins the reload cycle (10 seconds) and you re-engadge after the load cycle. . . that would be sufficient. But to change the reload times is too much. . . ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.

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