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Aoife Baelish
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.06 00:50:00 -
[1]
Has anyone ever tried to monopolize certain item, by buying every single unit in a trade hub and the surroundings, as soon as it appears, and set your own sell orders at like, twice the usual price?
I'm wondering to what point this would be viable as a "Market pvp" tactic. If any of you has tried before, I'd like you to tell me your conclusions, and what kind of item you would pick as a target. I guess un-buildable items of great importance like faction multifreqs would do.
Please discuss.
Thanks.
---<---@ |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.06 00:53:00 -
[2]
People have tried, but the major flaw is that people can just produce more of the items or import them from out-of-region so it'll never work for a long time.
FREE! jumpclone service |
TYCONDEROGA
Amarr
Malum Crusis
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.06 00:57:00 -
[3]
Yeah, it's a good way to go broke. It won't take long for the savvy producers to get in there and undercut you.
With enough time, manipulation of sell orders and a big enough wallet it is possible, but by no means easy.
He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing! |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.12.06 01:09:00 -
[4]
Works in 0.0, maybe in middle-of-nowhere parts of empire, not in trade hubs.
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Dorna Fema
Caldari
Tech 2 Holdings Limited
Tech Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.12.06 01:18:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Brea Lafail
Works in 0.0, maybe in middle-of-nowhere parts of empire, not in trade hubs.
Works in empire hubs to you just have to be able to get in and go "all in" till your objective is met (i.e have the wallet to float it).
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.12.06 06:39:00 -
[6]
It only works properly when an upcoming patch will send prices skyrocketing 
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Vele Nori
Amarr
Dakinii
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Posted - 2008.12.06 07:56:00 -
[7]
It works and you can make profit, but it is very tricky. What you will need is:
1) Lot of ISK to buy out all of the item and its next best substitutes. For modules this would be for example T2 mod and all good named varieties. You will need to buy them out in all trade hubs of consequence.
2) Lots of EVE play time to babysit your overpriced orders and undercut producers and other traders.
Some modules in jita regularly get price fixed this way where somebody goes out and buys entire stock then tries to resell 2-3x the price. You can watch price history graph to see this at work. First the volume sold spikes up then you see a spike in price that eventually levels out and drops down to original price.
Target item can be anything really. Long time ago I did some of this with implants and certain T2 modules. If you have a week free to frequently log on to EVE and some ISK in reserve it is interesting to try this out just for fun.
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Necrosmith
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.06 07:59:00 -
[8]
I think it can be done for short periods of time if you go in balls deep as the other posters have said.
----
For those of you who claim to support the troops and oppose national health care, I have a question. Why do you insist on punishing our veterans with free health care? |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.06 08:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Andrue on 06/12/2008 08:33:27
In the past, yes. Get in early with new T2 items before the producers have ramped up production. I single-handedly (or so it seemed) kept the price of Nighthawks around 190mil in Jita when people were trying to sell them at 160mil. I made quite a nice profit. At the time I couldn't even fly them and lived four jumps away. Gotta love remote buying and selling skills 
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.06 09:41:00 -
[10]
Yes.
For 6 monthes.
Fetchez la vache !
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Cheap Dude
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Posted - 2008.12.06 10:55:00 -
[11]
It's possible.. shoot every hauler in that system.. this way they can't put up sell-orders 
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Aoife Baelish
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.06 11:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cheap Dude
It's possible.. shoot every hauler in that system.. this way they can't put up sell-orders
Wow, can it get more cool than hijacking jita?
Gather a coalition of pirates and orcas, and BAM, market blackout :P.
---<---@ |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.06 11:08:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 06/12/2008 11:09:49
Very difficult for a single person.
Not a big problem for some well-organized group of people. The market-watching and handling of buy/sell orders can be split up very efficiently between several people.
For corps/alliances it is easy to do big market manipulations (actually they are doing it all the time).
Of course if there is any payout of the profits to the participants, the profit per person might be rather small for such a large scale operation.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.12.06 11:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 06/12/2008 11:10:12
Double post 
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.12.06 13:17:00 -
[15]
It works for desirable drops.
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.06 16:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aoife Baelish
Has anyone ever tried to monopolize certain item, by buying every single unit in a trade hub and the surroundings, as soon as it appears, and set your own sell orders at like, twice the usual price?
I'm wondering to what point this would be viable as a "Market pvp" tactic. If any of you has tried before, I'd like you to tell me your conclusions, and what kind of item you would pick as a target. I guess un-buildable items of great importance like faction multifreqs would do.
Please discuss.
Thanks.
As stated, this can be done, but it is easier said than done.
KEY DETAIL:
---------------
You will not be playing against an AI, you will be playing against utterly ruthless fellow players, a few of whom are actually intelligent. Any of them will eagerly and happily interfere with your plan in order to make money for themselves.
Playing the markets is AT LEAST as much of a bloody shark pool as the hottest parts of 0.0 and low sec.
During my own buying and selling, I have noticed a few details that are interesting.
Placing buy or sell orders of even moderate size can often manipulate the market. I especially remember one time I tried selling some datacores, and found myself being undercut. In my effort to just unload the damn things, I drove the market the type of datacore in question down by about 33% over the period of a couple of days.
One thought that was firm in my head at the time, was that if I actually wanted to buy a bunch of something, this sort of manipulation could save a bunch money..........
......or could cause me to lose a bunch of money.
Bottom line:
----------------
If you KNOW you are going to get undercut while selling (or get out bid when buying), and you have reason to believe this will happen BEFORE your own order filled, you can use this information to good effect.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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F90OEX
F9X
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Posted - 2008.12.06 17:22:00 -
[17]
For some time I had complete control over the Navy Raven (CNR) Market. Took lots of work, but was able to increase the price to where i needed it to be. Took lots of Isk. In return I got WDed, Hate Mails and I'm a cheater  . But made a ton of isk doing it.
Its is possible yes, but too much work. There where times where I felt it was like real work. And that's not what I play eve for.
Fyi, Since the CNR market has crashed. Not worth the investment/time for me anyways.
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Hello Jerry
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Posted - 2008.12.06 18:17:00 -
[18]
Yes it is still possible, you just need to pick the right items and do it at the right time. Last week i bought up around 1B of capacitor flux coil II at 600k per item, This drove the sell order listings to 1m per item. Using my own orders to drive the buy orders up to 800k a pop i then dumped it all back on the market for a cool 250m. (while selling some at 900k per item). I know there is one trader who bought 300 units at 800k who is uber ****ed .
This was done in JITA, you can check the market history graph for the evidence.
And for another example in progress, go cheak out Rogue CY-2 implants, last week they where trading for 62m sell orders and 55m buy orders. Now it is at 150m in sell orders and 100m in buy order's. But expect that to drop soon .
Picking the right item is hard but its still very profitable when done right.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.06 19:52:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Andrue on 06/12/2008 19:53:22
You need to have money and nerves of steel to try and keep the price up. I think at one point I was the proud owner of a dozen Nighthawks. I logged on to check the market on Sunday AM and found five more NH's on the market. I took a gamble and bought them all up then placed back at my preferred price.
Thankfully they all moved over Sunday night then Monday but as I remember over the next week it began to get harder to keep the orders where I wanted them. I decided to sell all but one of my stock at whatever I could get for them.
The one I didn't sell is the one I fly today.
One thing I will say about playing the market:Everything sells eventually. The trick is not in selling something. The trick is selling it quick enough. 
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.12.06 22:46:00 -
[20]
REPO [MUCC] did it to some lowsec alliance last yearsometime, I forget who they were. One of the newer members had a wallet fat enough to buy 9b officer mods like candy went in and bought out every bit of ammo and every drone in the region for weeks.
Enemy alliance finally came begging to the diplomacy table and when the war was over the guy put everything back on the market with a 50% markup, finally selling out when he was down to like 10%. Made an insane chunk of change.
I wish I was market savvy enough to pull of stuff like that.
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CHAOS100
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.12.06 23:06:00 -
[21]
It normally works on the short term, ie if you can sell it all off quickly then you will make a lot of profit. Usually after a day or two the price stabilizes back down near where it was before. Sometimes people, especially regular traders,'go with the flow' and just undercut you by -.01, so you would need to keep an eye on your trades all the time.
However I have seen some artificial price increases work on the long term, taking over a month to go back to where they were. For example the price of some implant was 7mil, but for a while it jumped to 13 mil and the buy order remained 7mil, so I made a decent buck over whoever rose the price. It weaseled its way back down after a month. This will usually only work with an item with limited throughput and not in the public eye.
It also depends on how much people are willing to undercut you. If someone comes in and wants to get rid of their stuff fast and makes it 1mil cheaper, and then a trader follows by undercutting that price, hoards more will follow and the process will repeat, lowering the price significantly.
I have noticed quite a few people try price manipulation with covert ops cloaks in jita. Recently the price has risen from 9 mil to 13 mil, and recently as high as 19 mil a couple days ago. The cloaks have high throughput and is a common item for trading and buying, so people usually lower the price back down fast. It must have cost that person a lot of isk, and the price has gone back down. However I see it is staying above 10 mil, so whoever has bought them back at 9mil must be making a decent buck. I'm not sure if it was something in quantum rise like the blockade runner change that made people buy it in speculation, but the price has increased.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.12.06 23:10:00 -
[22]
people try it... but u cant control the world of eve's supply... so basically people put up buyorders for what the price ought to be or perhaps even a bit overpriced... then the suppliers feed into the buyorders and get isk right away.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Benco97
Gallente
Friendly Archaeology Group of Inder
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Posted - 2008.12.07 00:50:00 -
[23]
Whichever one of you that collapsed the market for Sleeper Foundation Blocks... I'll find you. 
2.5million a unit down to 300k? I cry, literally.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Elroth
The Edge of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.07 01:29:00 -
[24]
its easier then people make you believe here.
you need some isk though.
let me give you an example.
lets say Item X is for sale lowest 1000 and highest 1800
you buy all the item up to where the price jumps a lot because some people always have orders up for like 3000 . you need to add everything you buy in an excel sheet.
That way you can calculate what your average buying price turns out to be.
lets say for the example that you bought all the item for the average price of 1400.
since you bought it all the only sell order for this price right now are for 3000.
if the item was originally for sale for 1000 as lowest that means there are probably also buy orders up for a little like.
lets say 800. best buy orders are at 800. all you do now put your items on the market for like 2900.
and wait... . let people undercut you. that not a problem.. unless they undercut you massively and sell under your average buy price.
the trick is that once the sell orders are all for like 2900 and slowly going down 2800 .... 2700... the buy order price will go up...
if the buy orders go over your average sale price and you take your sell orders down and sell the items for the buy order that are higher then 1400 and you have made a profit...
a few rules:
1) It has to be expansive enough for not a lot of people to bother your sales.
2) There has to be an active buy order market for it. where people constantly out bid each other to get the items from people that wanna sell quick.
3) The difference between your average buy price and the initial price you throw the item back on the market for has to be high enough to last long enough for the buy order price to become higher then your average price.
Not a native english speaker so i hope i didnt make it to heard to follow.
it works...everytime... :)
Notice the latest rise in 1600mm tungsten plates? it wasn't me
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.12.07 03:29:00 -
[25]
It's a common tactic for people who want to make a quick buck. Problem with it is that even if you buy all the stock available on the market there's usually that again just sitting in hangars, so you don't usually have control for long. Personally I've been the long term controlling supplier on a number of items that this tactic has been tried on and have enjoyed ruining it for them.
As someone said above do it on an item that shifts a lot of product. Plan to rid yourself of your bought up stock within a few weeks.
It can be done but it's a gamble, and you better know what you're doing.
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.12.07 03:39:00 -
[26]
If you attempt to corner the market and people notice, it is them that will be making the money off of you.
You can remove the supply of a current price and try to ask your own over-inflated price, but then in order for that to work you must buy up all the new stuff that is aggressively priced.
It can work but I wouldn't recommend attempting it near jita.
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Elroth
The Edge of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.12.07 03:49:00 -
[27]
yeah doing it in jita is a bit to risky. since there are too many people watching that market like hawks.
its a good way of making money, but you need to have the right market spot and right item and alot of iskies.
i do this usually with 10 to 20 billion. but with a payout that has been 10% to even 75% once its a good way of making isk
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.12.07 05:43:00 -
[28]
There are a few things you should know if you are attempting price manipulation:
1) Product - This is of huge importance. Manipulating a T1 or even most T2 item is almost guaranteed to fail in major trade hubs like Jita. T1 has unlimited supply. With the release of invention T2 also has unlimited supply but with slightly delayed response.
Your product choice when manipulating should be on objects with limited reply. This can be faction items, named items or even things such as minerals or moon minerals. Be very careful with regular minerals as you would need approx 200b per day to manipulate something like Tritanium in The Forge alone. Moon minerals are usually a decent option for manipulation with a cost investment of short term manipulation (approx 3 days) of maybe 20b. There's also items such as PLEX which have unlimited supply however it's usually quite fixed especially during the US economic downturn so relatively cheap to manipulate (5b to hold it off for a few hours, about 10-15b for a couple of days, or around 100b would probably get you holding the price for a few weeks).
2) Regional Averages. When CCP introduced these I was a little annoyed. I used to like being able to manipulate an item and resell it at a 40% markup but now there are all kinds of red warning markers indicating the market average value of the product. If you really want a long term manipulation you need to move the market average. This is where you continue increasing your buy orders and encouraging people to compete with you in buy orders. At the same time your sells go up and slowly the regional average goes up, allowing you to manipulate freely without people saying "OMG Why are Bestowers 400% above market average!!". If you can force the regional average up you have a far higher chance of success.
3) Location. Always of importance. Jita will provide the largest sales of your stocks but will also likely be where your biggest competition resides. As some above have said you can easily corner 0.0 markets but with far lower stock movement. I guess your time availability should determine your trade location, be it a FW hub, Jita, 0.0 or your local mission runner station where you are repricing Ravens 20% above npc cost.
4) Buy/Sell orders. Probably of the most importance. I see a lot of failed manipulation attempts by people who think that buying the region stock and repricing is sufficient. It's not. You need buy orders up to support your manipulation.
Lets use a case example. I decide to manipulate the 'Arbalest siege missile launcher. I spend a couple of days buying up as many items as possible at the current 275-300k price range. I continue to compete on buy orders getting more and more agressive, increasing not by 0.01 isk but by 1000 isk, or 5000 isk. The competition keeps chasing by matching my buys. This is slowly moving the regional average up whilst I am covertly planning my manipulation.
Anyway so I then buy up stocks up to the 350k mark. Hopefully I have room to reprice at 450k and have the best sell order available. I keep my buy order around the 350k mark if not higher, and I keep competing with other buyers.
You don't want your manipulation to have a sell order of 500k with a buy order of 100k. It screws the regional average and doesn't make for a convincing manipulation. You aren't just convincing people looking to buy the product, you are also trying to convince other sellers of your product. If they don't see a convincing manipulation attempt they will ignore it and reprice well below your price. That's where it gets expensive if you are getting suckered in by your own manipulation.
The trick when this happens (and it will), is to get a small portion of your stocks and battle the person's sell order right down to the ground (the 300k mark with Arb) so you can buy their stocks and relist.
I liken manipulation to fishing. It's all about battling your opponent into submission.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.12.07 05:44:00 -
[29]
I am currently designing a very large trade guide that will be for sale for a nominal sum. Consider the above a teaser 
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Vele Nori
Amarr
Dakinii
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Posted - 2008.12.08 08:56:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Vele Nori on 08/12/2008 08:59:44
Yes only problem with this way of making money is that you have to be able to log on several times a day to update your buy and sell orders and compete with all the other buyers/sellers. If you're doing this in Jita you'll have to update orders practically every hour - other trade hubs won't be so vicious but sell volumes are smaller too.
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