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Lazarann
Caldari
Ideal Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.09 05:43:00 -
[1]
I went on the test server the other day with a corpmate, myself, and my alt to try a lvl 5 mission.
Not that it matters, but for the sake of the story, I was in a nighthawk, my corpmate was in a raven, and my alt was in a basilisk.
So we're going along in a 0.4 and the basilisk gets some aggro. The raven pilot had a remote shield emitter, so he puts in on the basilisk. Now before I continue, remember we're ALL in the same corp. The basilisk pilot is a -8.8, and the raven pilot gets flagged for assisting him.
WTF?
Now, for starters, he's getting attacked by drone NPC's....not like he's doing anything bad. Secondly, we're in the same corp. I thought that was OK. Am I the only one who thinks this is ****ed up?
Then of course, I had to remote rep the raven, who was now flagged as a criminal, so I took another sec hit on the basilisk pilot for that. 
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.12.09 05:58:00 -
[2]
Bug report it as it is sisi. Quite sure this isnt how it happens on TQ.
Furthermore... you dont even need to be in the same corp. Just ganged to be allowed to remote rep in high sec even. If the person get globally flagged... then that global flag does transfer through the remote rep... but if he didnt do anything to warrant global flagging. That's bad mmmmkay.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.09 07:12:00 -
[3]
it hapens on tranq too
 Quote:
It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Karille
Gallente
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.09 07:13:00 -
[4]
Assisting a criminal gets you a global criminal flag no matter what is going on at the time. It is a real pain in the ass, but it's one of the prices you pay for having low security.
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Onys Cissalc
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Posted - 2008.12.09 09:45:00 -
[5]
Intended game mechanic.
You're assisting a criminal, and thus take a sec hit. The police don't care if you're trying to bear it up or not, point is that they don't like the person and you're helping him, so they dislike you too.
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qpod
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Posted - 2008.12.09 09:46:00 -
[6]
You cannot remote rep an outlaw even if he is in your corp.
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Lazarann
Caldari
Ideal Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:41:00 -
[7]
Well I gotta say that just seems dumb..oh well. At least I found out on the test server. Thanks for the replies.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hyveres on 09/12/2008 12:44:01
Originally by: Lazarann
Well I gotta say that just seems dumb..oh well. At least I found out on the test server. Thanks for the replies.
Why is it dumb?
Honest law abiding citizens should not be collaborating with known criminals and if they do so there should be consequences.
"Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot."
- Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:44:00 -
[9]
i think the rr flaggin code cant see the difference betwen GCC and outlaw, flashy means you get GCC.
and no it doesnt make sense.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lazarann
Well I gotta say that just seems dumb..oh well. At least I found out on the test server. Thanks for the replies.
Assisting a Criminal is Criminal offense whether you work together or not.
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Haruhiist since December 2008
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
i think the rr flaggin code cant see the difference betwen GCC and outlaw, flashy means you get GCC.
and no it doesnt make sense.
Tell me how this doesn't make sense.
Bad guy robs grandma.
You assist him so he can continue doing it.
You become Bad Guy 2.
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Haruhiist since December 2008
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Karille
Gallente
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Dr Fighter
i think the rr flaggin code cant see the difference betwen GCC and outlaw, flashy means you get GCC.
and no it doesnt make sense.
Tell me how this doesn't make sense.
Bad guy robs grandma.
You assist him so he can continue doing it.
You become Bad Guy 2.
Guy is on parole.
You give him a sandwich.
You get arrested.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:53:00 -
[13]
he was saying an outlaw getting repped gives him a GCC weather the outlaw had his own GCC or not.
sentrys not shooting a 1.0 char, gets repped by another 1.0 guy = fine
sentrys shooting a 1.0 with a gcc, gets repped by another 1.0 guy = second guy gets GCC too.
sentrys not shooting a -6.0 char, gets repped by another 1.0 guy = second guy gets GCC too.
sentrys not shooting a -6.0 char, gets repped by another 1.0 guy = second guy gets GCC too.
lets no say that the -6 guy gets attacked, hes not aggresed first and can jump or dock, but he gets repped by 1.0 guy, now the 1.0 gets a GCC. Is this intended? doesnt sound right to me.
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Andrea Tesla
Caldari
Crazy Clone Warriors of Disaster
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:53:00 -
[14]
You should be glad, that having criminals in your corp does not transfer the criminal flaggig to the whole corp by default.
Police would call that "criminal organisation" and go after the secretary and facility manager as well as after the bullies on street and the real bad guys.
So you have a criminal, you consciously decide to assist them... I do not see anything illogical with stamping "criminal" in bold red all over you.
AT
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Myra2007
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Dr Fighter
i think the rr flaggin code cant see the difference betwen GCC and outlaw, flashy means you get GCC.
and no it doesnt make sense.
Tell me how this doesn't make sense.
Bad guy robs grandma.
You assist him so he can continue doing it.
You become Bad Guy 2.
No, its different. More like some guy on the street i don't know asks me if i have a lighter for his cigarette. I say ok no problem matey and get subsequently shot by police officers for "assisting a criminal". Yeah, makes sense.
--
Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah
That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.12.09 12:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Andrea Tesla
So you have a criminal, you consciously decide to assist them... I do not see anything illogical with stamping "criminal" in bold red all over you.
i agree actually, its just not the way aggro has worked in eve for years and years.
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Andrea Tesla
Caldari
Crazy Clone Warriors of Disaster
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:00:00 -
[17]
Quote:
No, its different. More like some guy on the street i don't know asks me if i have a lighter for his cigarette. I say ok no problem matey and get subsequently shot by police officers for "assisting a criminal". Yeah, makes sense.
errr... no... with standing of -8.8 you can see them to be a criminal... so in your analogy, it would be the bad guy wearing flashy orange prisoner uniform, still wearing cuffs, asking you to hold his bag of tools, while he is bashing on another orange guy (the NPC rat). And yes, if you seem to be assisting, then the police will at least arrest you and politely ask for an explanation. Being arrested in RL pretty much is the same as a "sec hit". Do not let your boss hear about it... you might notice, you may not enter special high sec sectors any more (like your working place).
AT
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Andrea Tesla
Quote:
No, its different. More like some guy on the street i don't know asks me if i have a lighter for his cigarette. I say ok no problem matey and get subsequently shot by police officers for "assisting a criminal". Yeah, makes sense.
errr... no... with standing of -8.8 you can see them to be a criminal... so in your analogy, it would be the bad guy wearing flashy orange prisoner uniform, still wearing cuffs, asking you to hold his bag of tools, while he is bashing on another orange guy (the NPC rat). And yes, if you seem to be assisting, then the police will at least arrest you and politely ask for an explanation. Being arrested in RL pretty much is the same as a "sec hit". Do not let your boss hear about it... you might notice, you may not enter special high sec sectors any more (like your working place).
AT
its more like a crim in a dodgy place that gets mugged, and being human you save the criminal from the mob - and for your good natured kindness, your reward is the police sentrys gunning you down. Dont remeber the red cross getting shot at by the cops!
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Myra2007
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:19:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 09/12/2008 13:23:40
Edited by: Myra2007 on 09/12/2008 13:20:42
Originally by: Andrea Tesla
errr... no... with standing of -8.8 you can see them to be a criminal... so in your analogy, it would be the bad guy wearing flashy orange prisoner uniform, still wearing cuffs, asking you to hold his bag of tools, while he is bashing on another orange guy (the NPC rat).
Bashing the red guys is fair game for everyone in eve. So this activity is not at all suspicious from a rp view. (As a matter of fact concord will even encourage this behaviour and give monetary rewards as well as sec status gain. Furthermore this is the intended way of a criminal to earn his way back to society (back to hisec remember?) So don't fool yourself here.
Originally by: Andrea Tesla
And yes, if you seem to be assisting, then the police will at least arrest you and politely ask for an explanation.
Why would they? As pointed out killing the flashy guys be it npcs or not is legal in eve. So there was no criminal activity in which i was involved. As a consequence there is no reason to arrest me.
Anyway rl comparisons are stupid. Its just a game mechanic and without rl comparisons there is no way to argue that its a question of "logic" (which it isn't - see the rest of eve as an example). And thats all i am saying.
--
Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah
That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
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Del Chick
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:26:00 -
[20]
worst is when you have npc rats locked and you rep one of your drones just as a npc dies and you rep one of those instead.
lollers, intended game mechanics (concord) come blow yo ass up. not your fault but hey, who can't argue with the "intended game mechanic" doctrine.
I ain't complaining, I also really like those new little worm like things that run round your modules, kinda takes your mind of the warriors buzzing round your ship that won't go back in drone bay.
Best laugh ever is though when you try to lock someone and a message keeps telling you that "lock failed" I LOL everytime, specialy when they get a lock on me and blow me away, real cool game mechanics!!! Nope, no emc involved, just pure new game mechanics from last big patch.
But yeah, remote repping is working as intended, you get flagged for it.
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tikki
Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:31:00 -
[21]
I presume it is to stop pirates working in empire....for example:
Pirate jumps into a high sec system with a load of friends in RR Ships. friends use RR + Remote Sensor Boosters + Tracking Links + etc etc to allow pirate to gank loads of stuff in empire whilst tanking concorde.
Eve-o goes balisic with people emo whining about pirates in high sec.
Website MI killboard |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.09 13:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Karille
Guy is on parole.
No, he's not. He's an outlaw, to be shot on sight. He's the Osama of Eve, I think you get locked up or killed if you get caught assist old Ossy.
A yellow could be considered "on parole". Maybe, sort of.
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Slave 775
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.09 15:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: tikki
I presume it is to stop pirates working in empire....for example:
Pirate jumps into a high sec system with a load of friends in RR Ships. friends use RR + Remote Sensor Boosters + Tracking Links + etc etc to allow pirate to gank loads of stuff in empire whilst tanking concorde.
Eve-o goes balisic with people emo whining about pirates in high sec.
No way to tank concorde, or continue shooting anything.
Concorde shows up = end of story.
EVE ONLINE
Adapt or die ?
more like:
go and whine on the ForumsÖ
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.09 16:13:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Durzel on 09/12/2008 16:14:25
Looking at it objectively it is kinda silly since if CONCORD know the guy is an outlaw why don't they turn up themselves to deal with him? The obvious answer is that it would mean that anyone -5 or lower could never set foot in Empire, even in a shuttle, but still - it doesn't fit with all these random "assisting a prisoner on parole" analogies.
Frankly it would make more sense if you were flagged with a GCC for assisting a criminal if a) another non-corp/unfleeted player was on grid who "could see and therefore report you to CONCORD" or b) if CONCORD were already on-grid. This would mean that RR'rs couldn't rep outlaws/criminals to allow them to gank people (ala m0o trick) but outlaws could run missions in relative safety. If CONCORD/navies aren't already there to see you repping a criminal, how could they know about it?
Come to think of it the whole prisoner analogy falls down anyway because by being in the same corp as an outlaw you're technically "aiding and abetting" just as you would be if you provided shelter for an escaped prisoner, etc.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.09 16:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Karille
Guy is on parole.
You give him a sandwich.
You get arrested.
Bad guy is hiding from the law: if he shows up in civilized places he is toast.
You give him food and shelter.
You are now an outlaw too.
If he were on parole, he would have a security status of -4.9 or higher, and you wouldn't take a security hit for rep'ing him in low sec unless he was in the act of committing a crime.
Of course drawing parallels between real world and virtual world is doomed to failure.
To sumarize: game mechanic is working as intended: don't assist criminals unless you want to be a criminal too.
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Jesslyn Daggererux
Gallente
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2008.12.09 16:25:00 -
[26]
just stop! cut out the real world analogies! this is a GAME. this is not real. this is not based on reality. if it makes sense to your rational real world doesnt matter, does it make sense within the game world? my opinion is just petition it and if ccp says its intended then who cares? thats how the game world is supposed to be. if its not then they will fix it.
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Akiba Penrose
Power Seed Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.12.09 20:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 09/12/2008 20:07:04
Lets say you have a pirate gatecamp, boosted by 2 neutral Guardians. When someone tries to bust that camp, it is not fair that they get flagged for attacking the guardians.
Imo this is the only logical solution that RR outlaws gives a GCC.
Could be better, yes. But its definitively better then no GCC.
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Lazarann
Caldari
Ideal Machine
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Posted - 2008.12.09 23:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Lazarann on 09/12/2008 23:47:34
People don't seem to listen.
I get the point of the flagging, helping pirates, etc, etc, etc.
What I DON'T get it how helping him in a mission is a criminal act. THAT is what I have a problem with.
It's not like I'm assisting a criminal at BEING a criminal. I'm actually assisting a criminal at being just the opposite.
EDIT: Regardless, we have another character to use instead, so it doesn't matter in the end. Besides, the pirate can't help much in the missions that send us to .5
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Narcogen
Gallente
IBO CORP
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Posted - 2008.12.10 10:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lazarann
Edited by: Lazarann on 09/12/2008 23:47:34
People don't seem to listen.
They aren't the only ones.
Originally by: Lazarann
I get the point of the flagging, helping pirates, etc, etc, etc.
You mean, you get it as long as it doesn't apply to you, then you either don't get it or don't agree with it.
Originally by: Lazarann
What I DON'T get it how helping him in a mission is a criminal act. THAT is what I have a problem with.
Because the flag is triggered by any assistance whatsoever, and assistance within the context of a mission is a subset of that.
What you'd like, apparently, is some kind of exception, but I think it's fairly clear that it's better, more predictable, fairer, and easier to implement if the rule is monolithic-- don't assist players with low security status-- than if the system has to figure out if you're "engaging in a criminal act" or not. That can get pretty hairy.
In your scenario, things seem pretty clear. He's attacking a rat-- a sanctioned activity to raise secstatus-- and you're repping him.
Let's say a tough rat damages him a bit. You repair the damage. Then along comes a player character who engages your friend in a fight (also a sanctioned activity as he is flashy red) and your friend emerges victorious.
Now. Have you committed a "criminal act" under your own definition? If you had not been there or had not repped him, he might have gone into the fight less capable and the result might have been different. The repair occurred before the player engagement, but had an effect on its outcome.
What if, instead of attacking him, a player character comes along and your friend attacks him. Having assisted him before the fight, have you committed a crime now?
The bottom line is that there are simply too many different scenarios, too many permutations, for any algorithm that any significant portion of the userbase could be happy with to make those kinds of judgments. Repping before or after aggro at certain intervals of time? Of distance?
The nearest, safest, highest ground in this case is a simple rule-- if his sec status is low and you assist him, you get a flag. What he is doing at the time doesn't matter.
Originally by: Lazarann
It's not like I'm assisting a criminal at BEING a criminal. I'm actually assisting a criminal at being just the opposite.
As above-- it doesn't matter what you're assisting him with. Getting him coffee will get you a flag, not because that's necessarily the best and fairest way, but because it's less unfair for the largest number of players possible. If there were any exceptions to that whatsoever you can bet there'd be ten ways from Sunday to abuse it.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 10:37:00 -
[30]
Edited by: techzer0 on 10/12/2008 10:37:05
Originally by: Hyveres
Edited by: Hyveres on 09/12/2008 12:44:01
Originally by: Lazarann
Well I gotta say that just seems dumb..oh well. At least I found out on the test server. Thanks for the replies.
Why is it dumb?
Honest law abiding citizens should not be collaborating with known criminals and if they do so there should be consequences.
What is annoying is that if you are -10, sitting next to a -10 and you remote rep him... you get sentry aggro/Global Criminal. And this is in the SAME CORP. You can shoot your corp mates with no issues, but you can't help them without dying?
Now that is stupid.
That's probably why you don't see a whole lot of RR gangs pirating lowsec, since it doesn't work all that well even when we're not being evil and shooting innocent players.
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Originally by: Nexus Kinnon
I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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