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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.11 05:52:00 -
[1]
Sigh - another one of those silly threadnoughts where the tinfoil hats form insta-mobs.
Rumor is taken as fact. Wild assumptions are made and reasoning abilities get self-nerfed. Typical aspects of your standard mob.
A self-confessing cheater claims that something went on for 4 years. His words are taken at face value - while nothing CCP says gets any credibility. The source is somebody who claims not to care about EVE - but keeps playing for years. Why do so few see the obvious contradictions here?
CCP is accused of having known about it for years - but not bothered to fix it. What could have their motivation been? None of this is in CCPs best interest. Self-interest is usually the best indicator of what's really going on. The fact alone that CCP did not act sooner makes it more reasonable to assume it either wasn't widely used during last few years - and that CCP simply didn't know about it until recently.
Even the economic effects are wildly speculated without bringing much reason into the mix. Sure making up wild numbers is way more fun and helps if you like to predict doomsday now and then. 1) If we assume that it was widely used by large alliances - then the effects between them cancel each other. 2) It's silly to assume that prices for T2 components are one-dimensional and static. CCP would not notice an exploit for a long time when prices are roughly were they want them to be. If that is the case then without such an exploit CCP might have tuned some other variables - like BPC quality and number of runs, and/or material output etc.... Worst case - a bunch of cheaters profited from this way too long - but now get banned. Alliances profiting from this cancel each other out. Pilots everywhere (except some manufacturs) were happy about the prices - and the prices would have fallen anyway.
Anyway - calm down - let the devs finish their sleep and give them *reasonable* time to get to the bottom of this. No - a few hours is not reasonable. Analyzing a large amount of data with care and doing something with that will likely take days. Expecting detailed reports while CCP is still working on finding out themselves is not reasonable. Assuming worst case scenarios on the unverified rumors by some is not reasonable. Assuming CCP guilty of incompetence or conspiracy until proven otherwise is not reasonable.
As with all other previous cases of flash-mobs this will not be the end.
Be reasonable. Try it - works better than you think.
Bye to the 5-10 emoragequitters who really quit. Perhaps a bit less whining then. I don't want you stuff. And you'll need it when you come back. ;-)
Some predictions of my own: 1) This is not the end of EVE 2) 0.0 alliances will not suddenly collapse 3) T2 prices will not explode in the long run. When prices rise more manufacturers will enter the market - creating new downward pressure. If current prices were roughly what CCP wanted then they can tune other variables. 4) Overall political and economic effects will be negligible beyond the short-term. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:51:00 -
[2]
The amount of wild fabrication and conclusion jumping baffles me.
The crazies amongst have almost no solid information - but does that keep you from believing the worst possibilities and then make up all sorts of dramatic consequences - of course not. Less exciting I guess.
* Server reset? Somebody above said that's unlikely to happem. Wrong! It won't happen. Not a chance. Not even a tiny one and nothing fair about it either.
* Whole EVE economy affected. BS. If even the worst assumptions are true it's still only affecting the minority of people living in 0.0 and using a lot of T2. And *if* many of the biggest alliances were involved then the cheats cancelled another.
* T2 prices rising - shrug. Maybe, we'll see.
* Have the Jove wipe 0.0? Nothing like that will happen. Would be very unfair to the vast majority of people living there and also not have the effect the confused here want it to be. The same folks as before would be back in no time.
Goons, RA, BoB, MM, etc... they don't own what they own because of T2 material prices or some T2 BPO. They are there because they have the will and organisation to keep an alliance running. That would not change one bit.
The likely scenario is that this exploit was not widely used for 4 years. If it has been going on in a non-negligable way since only a few weeks ago then the economy was hardly affected and the fix won't affect the market much.
Even if it went on for long time in a big way - this won't be nearly as relevant as many here think. T2 was expensive before - shrug. CCP can easily change some variables and increase supply if they want.
--- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.15 09:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: John'eh What I am saying is that CPP is lying to us,
But you say "saying" doesn't make that true. Care to provide any evidence? No - I'm not talking about rumors, assumptions and conjectures - I do mean some sort of credible evidence.
Originally by: John'eh and would not have even admitted this much without third parties stepping in.
Can't know either way. But as long as they fixed the problem I wouldn't actually care if they announced in in bold letters on front page or not. I'm sure they quietly fix a lot of bugs. Shrug. Why would they create storms that make people emoragequit when they don't have to?
Originally by: John'eh
They want to protect themselves,
Oh those crazy people and their evil ways. Wait ... - you want them to *not* protect themselves? You in their shoes would prefer to hurt yourselve? Come on - get real.
Originally by: John'eh The fact is, they are lying to us about there even being a dedicated QA Team;
Please note the whole fanfest video dedicated to the QA team (ccpgames youtube channel). Then also look up definition of "fact" and how it differs from "assumptions",
Originally by: John'eh [...] if they really did exist, they would all be worthless incompetents who have no actual software testing background or skill,
Yeah - because EVE is such a simple piece of software. Few variables and interactions. Very linear and static. No new features in years.
[more angry bla bla]
Sorry - couldn't be bothered to read and comment the rest. Always the same gut-driven angry tinfoil hat conspiracy and baseless accusation stuff.
I'm truly sorry this gets you so overexcited. Calm down. Put down the torch and pitchfork please.
The only thing I'd like to see from CCP is a bit more proactive information policy. Not within the first fgew hours of a threadnought. Nobody can provide valid anwers in the middle of local night while a zillion forum warriors go ballistic and forum mods are already overworked.
The real life facts are these: EVE is a beast of software and fast moving complex data. It will never be bug-free. No matter how much QA people and devs you throw at the problem. Some bugs will be worse than others.
Too bad. Let's deal with it and move on.
This particular bug is not even close to being the big problem the tinfoil crowd here makes it out to be.
T2 prices will rise - pff - so what? The same effect could be the result of feature changes in a patch - or simply more players on TQ. If it's a consistent problem CCP will deal with it by tuning stuff like alchemy. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.18 10:20:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Glengrant on 18/12/2008 10:21:35
Originally by: GunnerC
A purely personal statement, my final post and I will not be responding to replies:
I have two accounts I pay for and one I use GTC for. I have been a player for over two years. During the next 12 hours I will be discontinuing them all.
That's your choice and I'm sorry you don't enjoy EVE anymore. See you in a year when you are back. :-)
But ...
Originally by: GunnerC 1. As someone who enjoyed the financial/market side of the game, this has totally skewed the playing field, by so much as to make all efforts put in to acquire isk by 'legitimate' routes almost meaningless.
Pff - that part makes no sense. Every time a big patch changes some features or new features get introduced (just think invention as an obvious big example) the market moves by as much and more as this exploit has done.
A few people made a lot of money by cheating. A part of that money just vanished again by closing those accounts. But to the rest of the economy it's just a bit of supply changes in some T2 input materials. It doesn't change any meaning for the rest of the market at all. Prices fluctuate all the time. Sometimes due to patches, sometimes due to wars and disruptions in logistics.
Originally by: GunnerC 2. The volume of isk likely to be involved (my estimate from the 'facts' that are available) means that the economy will be stained by this illicit isk for months/years to come.
Nope. The total amount of money didn't actually change by this - it will just distribute a bit differently again. The effects on the economy as a while will actually be small and not matter at all soon. T2 products might appreciate in price for quite a while - but that's part of the market and not such a big deal. They won't be nearly as high as pre-invention. If current information is correct and the exploit was only used widely in most recent months then prices will just roughly go back to where they were before big scale abuse happened.
Originally by: GunnerC 3. CCPs response to this seems better than to previous issues, though time will tell if enough info comes out (and yes I can see they do need time to dig), but the fact that 'issues' is a plural is enough to sway me.
Then don't bother to ever again play any MMOG. With your expectations you will be disapointed. Realistic expectations lead to less frustration. :-)
Originally by: GunnerC 4. Whilst it appears not to be a factor this time I am strongly opposed to game developers playing in the game itself, unless they are specifically identified as GMs and do not concern themselves with the affairs of other players. As I understand it CCP are still allowing developers to be actively involved in major alliances - not cool!
You said it yourself - wasn't a factor this time. Was a factor just that one time and I'm sure CCP has better monitoring now.
OTOH devs being involved in the game does have advantages for us players: 1) They understand the game better 2) It makes a big diff whether the game is just a way to make money or something you personally love and have a stake in. See what SOE did with a game like SWG (http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). That's what you get when beancounters make all the decisions and there is no personal connection.
I'd rather have a dev scandal every 5 years then a company who doesn't love its game and just sees it as a product to milk for money, use it up and then sell the sequel or something else.
Originally by: GunnerC Good luck to all those that remain. I suspect you may need it.
Perhaps - but not for the reasons you have given here. ;-)
Have fun --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.18 10:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Zeul LOL...CCP you are noobs
Go - make a MMOG, keep it successfully running and expanding for over 5 years while some of your players will complain whatever you do or don't do and then come back and tell me you had no issues. Fat chance.
As you probably haven't ever done anything like this it's fair to say the noob is you (and the rest of us too of course).
Oh the difficulties of sitting at home and imagining everything you would have done so much better while not actually having to risk or prove anything.
Silly troll. :-) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.19 01:34:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Because to criticize the incompetence of someone in a field you have to be good in that field right?
Nope - you don't have to be good at it. This forum clearly shows that everybody can have an opinion without putting much thought into it by just making things up and demand whatever comes to mind first.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I hope you never find an incompetent medic in your life, because by your logic you just have to accept you are worse than him and let him do his job as he sees fit...
Nope. But IMHO you didn't get the example right. Taken your medic this is more like patients showing up and accusing the medic that he allowed the patient to get a cold and then not fix it in 5 minutes.
CCP is accused of being incompetent because a very big and complex game doesn't work perfectly all the time and not being able to go through a mountain of data and provide detailed answers within hours.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Oh, and please check the thread bellow, and post your opinions.
Already done. Another thread the world doesn't need. sigh
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Whatever they may be, support it or not, it is a matter worth discussion, in my opinion.
Not everything is worth discussing without end.
Unrealistic expectation leading to frustration. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.19 10:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Glengrant on 19/12/2008 11:01:05
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
CCP is accused of being incompetent because in these last 5 years it has:
- lied to its customers multiple times;
I've been around since the beginning and don't remember a single one. A bit of marketing spin here and there - sure - no saints in the real world. People claiming they lied ain't making it true.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent regarding its employees manipulations in game;
I guess they were a bit naive in the beginning in that they trusted their colleagues not to be as stupid as t20 behaved. I'm sure they have better checks now. Plus the whole affaoir will have been a warning to potential cheats. One case - get over it already.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - banned innocent people because these people exposed its lies;
Again - I don't know of a single case where that happened. A banned user spinning his own version is to me not automatically more credible than CCP.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent towards its own petition system allowing things like this to happen;
I'm sure some stuff fell through the cracks here. Would be surprised if otherwise actually. I guess in your mind there are a few petitions per day, well written and easily handled. In my mind I see a deluge of silly stuff and people whining about every little thing they misunderstood or didn't like. The GMs handling that will try to get through their daily load as fast as possible - partly because players otherwise whine about how their petitions weren't resolved right away. And of course you hire or rent out that work - or would you expect devs and menagement to handle petitions? So there will be miscommunications. Again - your benchmark seems to be perfection while mine is the real world. Some low level of **** up is unavoidable (and you can't know which little thing later turns out to be a big deal). Your requirements only mean that every company is incompetent - but then the label is meaningless.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel - been negligent towards its own game failing to realize an exploit of these proportions;
Depends on what really happened - which neither of us really knows at this time. Difference is that I don't believe every self-proclaimed recently banned whistle-blower and I don't assume that everything that CCP does is a coverup.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Yeah, because any opinion that differs from your own is uneeded in your world right?
How did you you know? ;-)
No - I have no problem with people having different opinions. I enjoy the occasional debate - obviously. :-)
But it is my opinion that these threads get blown out of all proportion. This whole material creation thing for example - according to some people here it's soemthing that somehow damaged the market permanently - while actually it will have very little effect. Players who just start now will not know what we're talking about - market is working fine. Invention had had a vastly bigger effect on the economy.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Fortunately you don't HAVE to discuss about anything you don't want, do you?
Right. But I have to go through all the drivel to find the occasional worthwhile stuff on the forum. Plus the whole pitchfork and torch mob thing here does annoy me. Enough to try to stand in the way.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
And by the sighs in your post and the bitterness, you seem to be the frustrated one.
Yup - my unrealistic expectation of people here behaving more reasonable lead to me getting frustrated. Agreed. :-)
--- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.20 01:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Go to the ghost trainign thread and you will see the most recent one.
I noticed that whining thread. Don't see where CCP lied there. It's obvious ghost training was not meant as a feature - just a side effect of how the code works. Then they tolerated it as long as it was an occasional thing. Then it got out of hand with many people doing it and they put a stop to it at last. Personally I don't care either way.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel In the T20 incident,
A single employee cheated. Thaqt stupid idiot.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel in the ISD reporter incident and so on.
Don't know about a USD reporter incident.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I know you are a fanboy and won't accept any argument against your idols,
I have no idols. Never had - never will. If your definition of fanboi is somebody who is not into conspiracy theory and doesn't fall for forum mob mentality then I plead guilty. ;-)
Originally by: Etho Demerzel but any attempt of defending them from this is silly, really.
Funny - because I think the same about the need of some people here to assume the worst of CCP all the time.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel T20 was the one who was caught. Wherever there are people caught it is likley there are smarter people doing the same that are not.
So - assumption of guilt - let's not be bothered with any evidence.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel But even so, this was the result of their policy, which generates conflicts fo interest,
True. But the policy makes sense - and I want them involved in the game. Also the whole t20 affair made it much less likely that it would happen again.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel and was negligent in policing those conflicts.
Already granted that they were likely naive about this in the beginning. Must have been a shock that a valued colleague would do something so stupid and harmful to the company.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel It still is as IA is just a figure head department.
Any evidence - or again just assumption of guilt?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel This version was confirmed by CCP.
Can you please point me to that message?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel They didn't manage to point a single motive for the ban.
Err - they never discuss such reasons publicly.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The real motive was that he showed their dirty.
Possible - but - you know - any prove? Or do you just assume so?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel And he was not the only one. There was an ISD reporter who suffered the same fate.
Because he said so? The common thing is that everybody else has 100% credibility while CCP has none?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I work in development, in a big company. We subcontract, we give support, and I can assure you that even though we are far from being perfect we would never simply igbnore a complaint and bury it. There are a lot of mechanisms to avoid this from happening because it is the negligent action most likely to result in a sue.
Your customers pay only a few bucks per month but expect every wish fullfilled and insult you when expectations aren't met on their schedule? Also please decide whether your company is "far from being perfect" or "never ignore a complaint"?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel No, you believe that everything CCP says is the absolute and inconditional truth.
Nope.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I don't know about you, but I would make periodic scans for duping checking exactly this, from time to time if I was in charge. It is the single most common exploit in any online game.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.20 14:26:00 -
[9]
Dear Etho (et al),
let's put an end to the counter-quoting.
If your world only allows for either a) CCP is guilty until proven otherwise b) fanboi then yes - I belong in the fanboi camp.
If I believed half of your assumptions I wouldn't be here to argue anything - my subscription would be cancelled.
I do not think that CCP is perfect. I believe they are a regular bunch of people and mostly normal company (above average game designers with a great vision though). There are things where I think they could have handled it better - but hindsight is always 20/20 and I make allowances for the occasional mess - which happens everywhere.
The removal of ghost training was about money? Big surprise - not. What else could it have been about? First they tolerated it because it didn't affect the bottom line much, then it did and they put an end to it. Doesn't change the fact that the other threadnought is a bunch of whiners that moan because they no longer get a service for free - instead of being satisfied that they got it for free so long. Shrug.
And yes - I don't hold a game company to the same standards I would hold - for example - a bank or medical equipment supplier or an airline.
Also I know for a fact that players are human too - some are stupid, others seek attention or have some revenge agenda - so there is room for lies and spins everywhere.
When I make assumptions about CCP I base them on - what I consider - reasonable assumptions about their own self-interest. Based on that I rule out that CCP would "knowingly" ignore such a bug, or allow cheating by employees on purpose. Because none of that is in their own best interest. Simple enough.
At least half the "evidence" often fielded vs CCP is just people claiming stuff and getting free credibility by a forum mob. Some such "evidence" has been repeated so often that it is just accepted now - without anything to really back it up IMHO.
I have read all those threads over the years you allude to - I just didn't believe it all. My standards of evidence are higher than yours. And yes - I put a bit of trust in what CCP says - otherwise I wouldn't be their customer any longer. Why are you still paying them?
As for why CCP does not publish char names - you only have to read some of the posts here to understand why. Some char names can be connected to real names via fanfest contacts etc... They might not be entirely safe. And regardless of how small the chance is that somebody could be beaten up about this in RL - no company would take that risk. It does make sense for CCP to have a strict privacy policy.
Similar for corp names and alliances. Why unleash a lynch mob on a corp or whole alliance where for all we know 1 cheater could give the whole corp a bad name and 1 corp could brand a whole alliance of hundreds or even thousands of members. Again - it does make sense to not release this information for perfectly good and valid reasons.
Yes - I too would like to know the names - but I understand the reasons why I don't get them. And not getting those names does not hinder my gameplay at all. Actually the whole affair does not hinder my gameplay at all. So T2 products get a bit more expensive - shrug. That's a fraction of the effect that patches like invention had on the game. Easily adapted to. I want the cheaters banned for fairness reasons - not because they actually damaged the economy a lot. The economy was affected somewhat - but not damaged at all. Ore still gets mined, ships build and sold and destroyed. It's small change compared to the changes we had over 5+ years.
You are of course free to draw your own conclusions. I just wonder why you give money to a company that you consider incompetent liars and cheats. Take your money elsewhere. According to your logic it must be easy to find games made by better run companies.
At this point we simply have to agree to disagree. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.21 19:06:00 -
[10]
Imagine CCP lists names of chars involved. Any number of such chars could be linked to real persons via meetings at fanfest, vent/ts convos and corp forum threads. The risk isn't high but there is a possibility that an angry eve player might then beat up one such cheater.
It's understandable that a company won't take that risk - regardless of how small.
Especially as they can't win this anyway. Any info they give - there will be some hardcore tinfoilers here who argue that that is just coverup for much worse problems. No BoB/Goon/whatever-power-alliance-you-dustrust names on the list? Coverup again.
They destroy 70 accounts? CCP only deleted some alts goes the myth - there *must* be way more. They destroy 700 - OMG - it must be thousands no doubt.
It takes only a very few hardcore tinfoil hat wearers (priding themselves to be on a holy crusade for customer rights - heroes in their own eyes) to keep this going. So - again - CCP can't win by posting names and takes a risk by doing so. So they won't. It's the rational thing to do.
Anybody who is convinced that CCP lies about claims to delete accounts and investigating this - cancel your subscription and never give them your credit card details again.
I'm satisfied with the services provided for my monthly fee (the equivalent of 2 movies per month - for better than 4 hours of typical movie entertainment), I'm willing to trust their claims. I wouldn't be here otherwise.
Also I don't want CCP do spend resources on this beyond banning the primary perps. Such resources would not be spend on fixing bugs or providing features at this time.
Anybody who thinks they should not hesitate to waste money on this - remember - *we* pay for it all. If you want QA and IA on a level otherwise associated with medical equipment suppliers and such - be prepared to pay similar prices. Want to pay $80 per month for best possible QA? I prefer a reasonable compromise appropriate for a *game*.
WB to reality. :-)
merry xmas everybody (yes - even the tinfoil brigade ;-) ) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.21 19:58:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Glengrant on 21/12/2008 20:00:17 Dear Etho,
I do ignore the forums for weeks - sometimes months at a time. Need to recharge to process all the c**p one has to wade through here.
You claim this affair is game-breaking. How so?
Let's just assume for a minute that EVE would prove beyond your level of doubt that their current findings are correct.
Then widespread abuse has only been going on for some weeks or so. Meaning that prices have only been really affected for that same period. Meaning that prices will just go back to the level of 2-3 months ago (everything else being equal).
Big deal. A bit higher than now - but still *way* lower than pre-invention.
If patches like invention with their massively market affecting changes don't danage the game - how could this affair be different.
The fact is that prices are determined by a number of variables. Alchemy for example will also affect them.
And the exact prices of T2 are not very relevant to the overall game as there is no one correct price.
That's why even if your worst assumptions are true and CCP covers up widespread abuse over a much longer time it wouldn't really matter much to the market economy. Either post-invention prices are roughly where CCP wanted them by design - the they will just tune some other variables to make than happen (alchemy values, moon frequency/output, whatever). Or they are fine with higher T2 prices - also OK as then more pvp would be done with T1 again and T2 would simply be rarer. Nothing inherently wrong with that either.
So - yes - the cheats affected the market - but at the same time there was 0 damage to the market. We don't want cheats profiting from this - so we want them and their assets gone (that's where we agree - right?) - but beyond that there is not a problem.
OK - an alliance or 2 *might* have gained a better position than they otherwise would - but that will quickly change now anyway if extra money was the only reason they got ahead.
Your silly class action suit OTOH would be damaging the game (any success would raise costs and therefore prices - or reduce services). Though I'm not too worried as I don't believe for a second that this is going to happen or go anywhere.
Why I bother complaining about (IMHO unreasonable) complainers? Fair question. Not entirely rational on my part I admit. Sometimes I just fail to shut up. ;-) --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.22 00:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Glengrant on 22/12/2008 00:24:42
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
You could take one of such breaks now, you won't be missed
Wish granted. ;-)
<poof> --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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