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[Black ops] Give us freaking holograms to bring fear and chaos !

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Schwaxpl	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:05:00 - [1] Hi everyone, I've had an idea for a new black ops battleships ability : it consists of a new module called something like "Hologram generator" or "Mirror image" or something like that this module can generate an illusion of spaceship in a radius of 20 km arround you . the hologram does not do any damage nor buff or debuff , but it can be targeted and shot at . when you shoot at an hologram , it does nothing as it is not solid , every shoot at him is a miss . in fact , every module used on an hologram is pure useless. the hologram does the same thing that the original ship does if the real ship targets another ship , the hologram also targets it , if the real ship shoot at that ship , the hologram shoot too ( but does not do any damage ) if the real ship debuff or buff someone , the hologram visually do the same , it's a total mirror image it does make the black ops a real tactical advantage as the enemy must find (and target) the real ship there is a kind of countermeasure of course , just open your scanner and do a lil scan in the area , the holos won't appear so you can guess wich one is the real ship by comparing distances let's say the black ops can fit one additional mirror generator per lvl of black ops or maybe 1 per 2 lvl or even a fix 3 or 2 modules limit not sure about making it a high or medium slot as black ops already have a lot of high to fit ( cyno , jump , cloak ) the module can be used targeted at an ally ( creates a mirror image of him ) or on self ( create a self image )
Schwaxpl	Posted - 2008.12.12 11:07:00 - [2] Additional ideas : - create image of ships wich aren't realy there : let's say you're alone in the system and someone shows up , you activate your modules in a way to create fake allies ways to do that could be : you load a script for the ship type ( exemple : "Taranis hologram script" ) into the module and it will shows up with the name of a random member of your corp ( it would be too obvious if it took your name as the only ship wich would be the origin of the image is obviously the black ops one ) ( you will have in the overview : "[black ops player]'s black ops ship" , "[random corp member]'s generated ship" , "[random corp member 2]'s generated ship 2" ) the animation for the creation of images has to be like an uncloaking animation so that it looks credible another way to do this would be like a "recording" you go in space with a friend / corp member and "record" his ship into your module , it creates a script ( let's say you need some material to generate the script so that ppl won't be generating 1500000 scripts for free ). after doing so , you can summon an hologram of him without the need to lock him ( and so without the need for him to be near you ) exemple : you've got a friend "John" in an arazu , you're safe in a sys without enemies target him right click on the hologram module and select "record" it uses [whatever you want , holoreels , data sheets , minerals ?] and create a "John's arazu script" load the script into the hologram module activate it and a beautiful arazu named john uncloak at a random location within 20 km of you. scripts has to have different capacitor use malus depending on the ship type ( summoning a titan's image could dry out your capacitor in , let's say , 40 seconds ? ) for example : frigate size hologram = 0% capacitor malus cruiser size hologram = 100% capacitor malus battlecruiser = 175% malus battleship size hologram = 250% malus - create images of other things / npc ships : warp interdiction bubble , concord or navy ships , POS could be fun imagine the pleasure to see your enemy fear from a fake gate camp or wonder why there is a concord patrol at a 0.0 gate - create images while beeing cloaked : self explain , could you imagine the effect of 60 ghost ships and only 5-6 real shooting at you and you don't know wich one ? - images actives during warp : then you can simulate a fleet warp while beeing alone if you've got any other ideas or comment , please tell :) ( and for those who would say imba : it requires a lot of black ops pilots doing only holograms to create a real fear effect , pilots wich could instead be in dps ships blowing your ships :) ) Schwaxpl
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.12.12 22:32:00 - [3] Interesting idea. Altho it would need to be one module, as sacrificing a whole rack to this would be too much of a downside. Rather make it skill based: Decoy operation skill at using holographic decoy launchers. +1 to maximum decoy operation amount per level. It would use ammo, but not a turret/launcher hardpoint. A launched projector would explain better how holograms can be targeted. Could also possibly be holographic decoy drones? --- Player Deadspace: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=940302 Multiplayer missions: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=944091
Antihrist Pripravnik Gallente The 13th Gallentean Armed Response	Posted - 2008.12.13 03:27:00 - [4] The base of this idea is great. Needs to pass QA team first and lots of testing to get the numbers straight, but it would be fun to see this beeing implemented.
Myung Chul Gallente Talocan Technologies	Posted - 2008.12.13 05:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Schwaxpl "Mirror image" Do you play warcraft to much, but otherwise good idea, makes the blackops more useful in solo pvp and missions
Lijhal	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:07:00 - [6] uh nice idea .... would love to see that caldari mission runner face if 3 widows decloak in front of him and he dont know which to attack :PP
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.13 14:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Myung Chul Originally by: Schwaxpl "Mirror image" Do you play warcraft to much, but otherwise good idea, makes the blackops more useful in solo pvp and missions Good guess , it does come from warcraft Dota addict Originally by: ShadowDraqon Interesting idea. Altho it would need to be one module, as sacrificing a whole rack to this would be too much of a downside. Rather make it skill based: Decoy operation skill at using holographic decoy launchers. +1 to maximum decoy operation amount per level. It would use ammo, but not a turret/launcher hardpoint. A launched projector would explain better how holograms can be targeted. Could also possibly be holographic decoy drones? interesting yes but how would you specify the ship class and so , it would be more difficult to implement imo , i think on the developer side too as i'm one ^^ i like the idea of your launcher module , the projector has to be moving also as illusions need to move the ideal would be drone-like control for these illusion but if they were real drones it would be a down to the sin yeah , definitly thinks drone-like control would be fun for these :)
Princess 02	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:59:00 - [8] I was thinking of a totally new role bonus: How about giving black ops the ability to: Shut down complex acceleration gates... Close (upcoming) wormholes... or EXPLODE asteroids... LOL.. LOL.... HOW ABOUT putting TRAPS in the above!?!?!?!... and of couse its covert cyno in cyno-jammed system.. to terrorise people... Yup I call that A THORN IN THE A*S BEHIND ENEMY LINE... we dont need another gank/tank/ewar/command crap...
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.14 12:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Princess 02 I was thinking of a totally new role bonus: How about giving black ops the ability to: Shut down complex acceleration gates... Close (upcoming) wormholes... or EXPLODE asteroids... LOL.. LOL.... HOW ABOUT putting TRAPS in the above!?!?!?!... and of couse its covert cyno in cyno-jammed system.. to terrorise people... Yup I call that A THORN IN THE A*S BEHIND ENEMY LINE... we dont need another gank/tank/ewar/command crap... the trap ability sure is an interesting idea theoreticaly but i think it would end like stealth bombers , good on paper but crap on reality ... i'm ok on the fact that we don't need a gank / tank for black ops but we sure need some ewar , or maybe some REVERSE command , would act like a command link but to debuff ennemies ( in the system or maybe in a km radius around you )
eliminator2 Gallente Young Enterprise Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.12.14 13:24:00 - [10] nice idea and i belive this idea is from start trek voyager ^^ really nice though id love to see this and i carnt even fly a black ops :D
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:55:00 - [11] Superbly fun idea. It'd need careful tweaking to avoid massive lag if used en-masse (an expensive ploy to be sure) and to ensure it's not blindingly obvious who is what, but it does sound like another force multiplier/divider used correctly, and we need more of those. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.12.15 10:35:00 - [12] Originally by: eliminator2 nice idea and i belive this idea is from start trek voyager ^^ There was also something similar in a Star Wars novel i once read, where Han Solo and an illusion artist lead a freelancer team defending a small outpost against some bad ppl, with a fleet made 70% out of holograms, lol. --- Player Deadspace: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=940302 Multiplayer missions: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=944091
Jin Labarre	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:06:00 - [13] I'd be willing to bend my mind to the point that something like that could theoretically be possible, if: 1. It is one helluva supermodule, consuming most of the parent ship's CPU and powergrid and sucking the capacitor dry like a lemon. 2. It is effective only against locked targets as an active ability. 3. Each "hologram" has a very limited lifespan before the target ship's sensor computers and human crew manage to filter it out of the system. 4. Each "hologram" effectively dissapears the very moment the target ship shoots it with anything. 5. The activation of the module would increase the target signature of the parent ship by the target signature of all it's illusions, added up. It would be a superadcanced supercomplex form of electronic warfare, combining a bit of holografic imaging with a truckload of sensor hacking, ED, ECM, ECCCM and general broadcast spamming. Something that would be FAR more credible, realistic and plausible would be to work exactly the other way around than suggested, by adding ships only to the overview or to the system scanner output, which are not visible anywhere and which cannot even be targeted. Eventually, you can only expect the computers in EVE's ships to be of some very limited incompetence when it comes to handle the most basic sensor data.
Blood Titan	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:24:00 - [14] Interesting idea seems pretty cool. Counter Hologram system: Ship sensor/ hologram disrupter module Cycle time: 30 seconds CPU: 25 PowerGrid: 1 MW Skills: Electronic upgrades III Scanning: V It takes the full cycle time to lock and identify the real ships. Any Jamming disrupts the cycle and must restart. At the end of the scan an emp pulse is fired disrupting the holograms and allowing enough time to target the real black ops ship.
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Jin Labarre I'd be willing to bend my mind to the point that something like that could theoretically be possible, if: 1. It is one helluva supermodule, consuming most of the parent ship's CPU and powergrid and sucking the capacitor dry like a lemon. 2. It is effective only against locked targets as an active ability. 3. Each "hologram" has a very limited lifespan before the target ship's sensor computers and human crew manage to filter it out of the system. 4. Each "hologram" effectively dissapears the very moment the target ship shoots it with anything. 5. The activation of the module would increase the target signature of the parent ship by the target signature of all it's illusions, added up. It would be a superadcanced supercomplex form of electronic warfare, combining a bit of holografic imaging with a truckload of sensor hacking, ED, ECM, ECCCM and general broadcast spamming. Something that would be FAR more credible, realistic and plausible would be to work exactly the other way around than suggested, by adding ships only to the overview or to the system scanner output, which are not visible anywhere and which cannot even be targeted. Eventually, you can only expect the computers in EVE's ships to be of some very limited incompetence when it comes to handle the most basic sensor data. 1) buying a 500M ship just for setting a illusion wich disapear after 5 sec and debuff you so you die in 5 more sec is just plain masochism 2) lol , the sin/widow/whatever blackops targeted me for like 20 sec and suddenly 3 other ships uncloak , DOH , me is verry dumb , wich ship should i shoot ? 3)if the crew know that the ship is an hologram , does the hologram disapear ? no , it's up to the pilot to know wich target to shoot , maybe add some kind of countermeasure "sensor filter" or whatever wich would make the hologram be flagged as hologram in the pilot overview ( and then it's up to him to tag them to his fleet ) 4) no , a bullet passes through a hologram , the hologram doesn't disapear , it stand stills 5)is there a reason for that ? i agree to the need of balancing this module needs but what you ask renders this module useless ... black ops needs a new usefull ability , not a new gadget
Blood Titan	Posted - 2008.12.15 15:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Schwaxpl i agree to the need of balancing this module needs but what you ask renders this module useless ... black ops needs a new usefull ability , not a new gadget Cough* Read above... A module should be needed to counter a module, unless it is a bonus to a specific type of ship.
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:14:00 - [17] yup , i was writing my post while you posted your idea i like it , you could even make it more powerfull as the pilot needs to think and sacrifice a slot to take that anti hologram bonus it needs to have a fixed radius also , as it would render useless a group of black ops using these module maybe different radius for different size of vessel
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2008.12.15 16:21:00 - [18] god how i love my ideas!!!! but OMG i see an idea that i think is cooler than any of mine!!! all i ask is you create a new destroyer class ship and fit it on themand andy target the destroyer wants to duplicate then it is his puppet its like a necromancer calling his dead minnions for assistance hehe or a mage illusion spells i freaking love this idea hehe
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:11:00 - [19] In response to some arguing: You see three black-ops, all bearing the same name, all targeting you. When they start firing they do the amount of damage one black-ops should do. "Holos," you think. To counter: You start targeting them all, then shooting one. After firing at it once or twice and doing no damage at all, you conclude it's a holo, and switch targets. Your first round hits, doing xxx damage, so that is the real ship, an you ignore the holograms. Once the real one goes down, so do the holograms. This would give black-ops the edge of getting a few seconds to fire at it's target before it starts firing back. Of course, you could get lucky and find the real one on first try, or you could have buddies with you and start shooting at all the black-ops at once. This means it doesn't need a counter, as black-ops are the only ships that can use this module, and it's purpose is to give it an edge. Lets say you warp , and that holos can be active during warp. You come in, lots of reds, oh ****. However, the reds still need to locate the real black-ops, giving the pilots crucial seconds to warp out again while the tacklers are getting points on empty space. If you combine this with my earlier idea that the holograms would be, for example, drones, you would loose any holo-drones that get scrammed. These would of course be expensive, making it bad to loose them. --- Player Deadspace: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=940302 Multiplayer missions: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=944091
Blood Titan	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:28:00 - [20] Yeah I agree with the need for limited range for my module. 5km for frig class 15km for cruisers 25km for bs 40km for Capship Also optomal range bonuses from scripts should be taken into effect. Decrease cycle time to 20 seconds. Module overload: 5 sec cycle time disable hologram generation for 30 seconds. 25% damage to mod. Addon to op: Holograms give off a false damage reading to what damage would be done to the approprate vessel with base resists. Also should have an image scrambler so the ammo that passes through the hologram is not detected.
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:38:00 - [21] i have no issues with the power of this idea i think its fun i think its intimidatingbut i think is should beapplied to destroyer class ship and this ship has the ability right click any ship or ships you want and make an image of any or all those ship classes up to the number your ship skill. right ckick theship to duplicate andan immage of ship drops in cargo hold when your ready to activate hit the immage in cargo hold andhave fun when a image is hit it is destroyed only but move this idea to destroyer class hull ship T2 redesigned desi FTW
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.15 17:53:00 - [22] Hello all, I had an idea like that on my webpage, but I see no reason why the two couldn't be hooked together. I think a Black Ops might be perfect for the role, given it's capabilities. The idea is to have a decoy ship (in this case, the black ops) which projects a specific image around it, this time of a hauler for the respective faction. This gives pirates and ore thieves the gamble of "do I shoot at this hauler, as it could be a decoy ship and blow me up". I disagree with the ability to project multiple images, and the coding would be too complex for the variety of ships or player names (what would somebody flying this in an NPC corp have?). However, with this tweak, it could be easily workable. Like other module-specific ships, the module would cost a ton of CPU and have the ability '99% less CPU when used on a Black Ops'. You can view the full details of the ship on my webpage by clicking my signature below. It's listed under Decoy Ships. Comments or questions? "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:28:00 - [23] yeah , i had the same idea about disguise your ship in another , it could be the focused mode of the holo projector but why disagree with multiple images ?
Daevonar Minmatar Starfish Operating Syndicate	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Myung Chul Originally by: Schwaxpl "Mirror image" Do you play warcraft to much, but otherwise good idea, makes the blackops more useful in solo pvp and missions Been a 'mirror image' in every RP game from D&D to shadow run to Mage, that I've ever played... WoW just ripped it from a lot of much older sources :) As for the idea, I'd prefer to see it as just decoy drones that project a holo image in space... as a whole role for a ship I think it would have to be good enough to make it worth training and flying a dedicated ship, which means its probabl;y going to be good enough to be really irritating (i.e. not fun) in a lot of situations. There should laso be some way that a really perceptive player who takes a bit of time studying the ships to work out that they may likely be decoys... Dae.
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Bunyip on 15/12/2008 18:46:12 Originally by: Schwaxpl yeah , i had the same idea about disguise your ship in another , it could be the focused mode of the holo projector but why disagree with multiple images ? One word: Lag. Could you imagine a 0.0 blob with 50 of these ships each making 5 duplicates? The servers would fry under the pressure. A ship is a lot more complicated to produce in the GUI than a drone or anything of the sort, and you're planning on multiplying the computer's workload by 6, for both the client machine and the server? Edit: corrected math and clarified. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Blood Titan	Posted - 2008.12.15 19:28:00 - [26] I suppose changing the ships appearance would be better on the servers, a shame though i like the idea of summoning a fleet. Maybe there could be bandwidth restrictions? Still there would need to be an ability to counter it to some extent. Although this ability would still take time, similar to my thoughts on the scanner. Enough time to say get to the jump gate and gtfo if need be. Or to get close/far enough for massive pwnage.
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.15 21:26:00 - [27] 5 duplicates would clearly be too much , i was actually thinking of 3 maximum and to be less overpowered , how about the holograms only have 1 hp , still takes the time to lock them and if you activate a jamm on them you lose a cycle wich is enough time to allow the black ops ( wich got a high agility ) to warp out
Schwaxpl Gallente Creation Legendaire	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:18:00 - [28] bump
ReDraw	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:42:00 - [29] how about holograms creating interference? then, if they came to close, they'd dissipate. this would effectively restrict this technology to smaller gangs. It would also be interesting to project the image on to another ship. like disguising a command ship as an industrial ship full of t2 stuff
Ebon Rue New Found Power	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:25:00 - [30] Edited by: Ebon Rue on 17/12/2008 14:29:07 There's some good ideas in here, keep chewing it over. I think that the most credible method for this so far is to use hologram drones. From an 'real' perspective, that seems to make the most sense in terms of fooling the ships computers. Different classes of holo drones (Small, Med, Heavy) would have different limitations. We don't want them to become an 'Every ship must have to remain competitive' thing though... what if a Holo drone used 3x the bandwidth that it's class normally would've? As a rough approximation, Small Holo's can't decoy ships bigger then frigates, Med Holo's can't decoy ships bigger then destroyers or cruisers, and Large Holo drones can't decoy ships bigger then Battle Cruisers and Battle Ships. (Maybe Battle ships can't be decoyed?) I just tossed that in as a rough guide, but I think that instead of a list of classes that can or can not work with a drone size (Like Accel gates for ships) each classe of Hologram Drones should work via signature radius. That will limit the way a person who wants to use this can fit their ship, help balance it out, and it would mean that in some cases it wouldn't be stratigecally advantageous to use Holo drones. That's what we want, a tactical alternative, not a "Can't PVP Without." Anybody else like this foundation for holograms? The next thing to figure out would be counters, what a player would have to do to actively break the spoof, or what would happen passively that would reveal the spoof. Since we're talking Black ops only, (what about Cov ops as well?) I think that the spoof should be broken at target lock completion, if not, then certainly upon damage being dealt. Actually, since a person could lock say, 3 mirrors and the controlling ship at the same time, the former really does nothing to slow them down. The latter then, the spoof breaks when the holo drone takes damage. After a certain cycle time (for the drones module) the spoof is up again but the attacker should know which one is real by then. :-P The drones should keep their own sig radius (Or mirror the sig radius of the controlling ship.) [Edit: What would make more sense is that they use the sig radius of the ship that they're spoofing, or their own sig radius, whichever is greater.] The loss of time of time involved in this is worthwhile to the spoofer, lowering the DPS of the attacker and keeping them on their toes. The Cov ops and black ops can cloak. How would cloaking once the spoof is broken, then uncloaking in a different spot with a new spoof affect PvP? The DPS of the spoofer is lowered, since they're packing Holo drones instead of combat drones. Would that fact, combined with a fit keeping your sig radius low to maximize effectiveness be a balanced price to pay? Jamming would make spoofing more effective, it seems like spoofing would be under utilized without some sort of jamming or sensor locking. Anybody agree? Would this add to or detract from small gang warfare? It seems like spoofing is better utilized as a support role then as a solo role. Would the value that this would add to Black ops (and Cov ops?) remain balanced against the value of other ships? [Edit: I don't like the idea of using the scanning and distance to find the real one. In a fast paced small gang fight, you don't have the time to figure that out, especially when numbers are always changing or all 3 mirrors + the real one read 24km on your overview.]

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