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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:50:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 17/12/2008 10:50:42
 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
I don't see how the concepts of being Pro-Ammatar and Pro-Amarr are in any way in opposition at this time.
Now if I said "Pro-Sarum" or "pro-Ardishapur" you might have an inkling (or less) of support.
When I say Pro-Amarr I mean Pro-Amarr. Supporting ALL the people of the Amarrian faith, supporting everyone who pledge their allegiance to the one true God and supporting everyone that accept the word of the scriptures into their hearts and minds.
Because we've seen, time and time again, that when you - both you specifically, and Amarr in general - say "for the good of Amarr" - that's precisely what you mean. For the good of Amarr, and no-one else. I've noticed that "pro-Ni-Kunni" and "pro-Khanid" have very negative connotations among Imperial loyalists - favouring your own race is tantamount to rebellion - yet those who simply state that they're "pro-Amarr" are lauded as progressive and inclusive. Neither can one be "pro-Minmatar" while still remaining loyal to the Empire. This isn't really surprising - your entire society is built around dogmatic self-deification and the coerced worship of the core Athran Amarrian ethnic group as gods (via convenient proxy, of course).
The Khanid were exiled from the empire over theological disagreements, most Minmatar toil in squalid conditions, against their will, under the effects of a toxic nanovirus for barely enough food to sustain them, the Ammatar are constantly sidelined and patronised and the majority of the Ni-Kunni race live in conditions barely better than those of most Minmatar slaves. Whenever someone announces they're intent on improving conditions for their own race, they're seen as troublemakers and dissenters, yet whenever someone criticises the core Amarr ethnicity for hoarding the wealth and power, they're slapped down and told not to insult their betters.
Your society is exceptionally racist, you're exceptionally racist and I'd appreciate it very much if you'd stop attempting to insult the intelligence of the IGS by pretending it's somehow not so.
-----
CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Dance Commander |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.17 11:25:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Amusing...and I'm sure you're going to provide proof of these wild accusations?
From log Private_Chat_(Scagga_Laebetrovo)_1101210_225349
[ 110.12.10 23:22:30 ] Scagga Laebetrovo > in the meantime
[ 110.12.10 23:22:34 ] Scagga Laebetrovo > I have 2 navy throns in rens
[ 110.12.10 23:22:37 ] Scagga Laebetrovo > interested :P?
Perfectly cross-checkable with CRC databanks if anyone with the clearence to access them thinks I've falsified them.
You'll have to do better than that, Mr Ixiris - a trained monkey could punch out a more convincing story. I am never known to make such offers to my enemies, nor speak in such prose.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.17 11:38:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 17/12/2008 11:38:08
And once again you (Andreus Ixiris) show your (willful?) ignorance.
First of all. I'm a supporter of the Heideran policies and a progressivist. I've always been one and it has at times put me at odds with more traditionalist organizations. I don't remember seeing YOU at Liparer II and ready to suicide your ship against a Kor-azor fleet in order to make a last stand to protect the planetary population (luckily that was not necessary as the Speakers of Truth intervened).
As for Khanid.
Khanid is BOTH a Holder family, a people and a region. The region has little to do with the Khanid people, but is the domain of the Khanid Holder family (which happens to be pure-True Amarr).
The Khanid people were NEVER exiled and the demographics of the Khanid kingdom in relation to the Khanid people is not much different from anywhere else in the empire. Everywhere the Khanid people are respected and treasured allies, a people who have always been at the forefront of Amarr expansion and has ceaselessly supported the Amarr cause.
When people say "pro-khanid" they mean that they support the Khanid holder family, which is an entirely different deal.
And I can't recall the Ni-kunni ever coming up in a "pro" or "contra" discussion.
Also, "Pro-minmatar" and "pro-Ammatar" isn't the same thing either.
Not to mention that your view of the general slave situation in the Amarrian empire seems to have more incommon with gallentean holoreels than actual reality.
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.17 11:39:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 17/12/2008 10:50:42
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
I don't see how the concepts of being Pro-Ammatar and Pro-Amarr are in any way in opposition at this time.
Now if I said "Pro-Sarum" or "pro-Ardishapur" you might have an inkling (or less) of support.
When I say Pro-Amarr I mean Pro-Amarr. Supporting ALL the people of the Amarrian faith, supporting everyone who pledge their allegiance to the one true God and supporting everyone that accept the word of the scriptures into their hearts and minds.
Because we've seen, time and time again, that when you - both you specifically, and Amarr in general - say "for the good of Amarr" - that's precisely what you mean. For the good of Amarr, and no-one else. I've noticed that "pro-Ni-Kunni" and "pro-Khanid" have very negative connotations among Imperial loyalists - favouring your own race is tantamount to rebellion - yet those who simply state that they're "pro-Amarr" are lauded as progressive and inclusive. Neither can one be "pro-Minmatar" while still remaining loyal to the Empire. This isn't really surprising - your entire society is built around dogmatic self-deification and the coerced worship of the core Athran Amarrian ethnic group as gods (via convenient proxy, of course).
The Khanid were exiled from the empire over theological disagreements, most Minmatar toil in squalid conditions, against their will, under the effects of a toxic nanovirus for barely enough food to sustain them, the Ammatar are constantly sidelined and patronised and the majority of the Ni-Kunni race live in conditions barely better than those of most Minmatar slaves. Whenever someone announces they're intent on improving conditions for their own race, they're seen as troublemakers and dissenters, yet whenever someone criticises the core Amarr ethnicity for hoarding the wealth and power, they're slapped down and told not to insult their betters.
Your society is exceptionally racist, you're exceptionally racist and I'd appreciate it very much if you'd stop attempting to insult the intelligence of the IGS by pretending it's somehow not so.
Oh please.
You often miss the point but Nomakai's explanation was so far over your head that you could fit a titan in the gap.
Clearly, he was referencing the Amarr he was talking about all of the peoples of Amarr rather than simply just those of the Amarr bloodline.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Lycana
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.17 12:29:00 -
[65]
In Andreus' defense, it's a very Imperial trait to be able to intuit from context whether an Amarrian is referring to a bloodline, House or the Empire as a whole. Many from outside the Empire have trouble following the subtle path of Amarrian speech; having been raised in dull barbarism, how could it be otherwise for them?
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.12.17 15:50:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 17/12/2008 15:50:08
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
And once again you (Andreus Ixiris) show your (willful?) ignorance.
No, I'm simply trying my hand at making angry Amarrians angrier. I'm succeeding, apparently. You wouldn't be so defensive all of a sudden if I hadn't struck a nerve, so I'm just going to keep doing this and see how far I can push it. Given that I start with the basic assumption that when I'm talking to an Amarrian Loyalist I'm always right, I don't seek to win an argument. I've already done that, and Loyalists as a rule are too stupid or too stubborn (or in the overwhelming majority of cases, both) to see the truth when you wave it in front of their eyes. If they weren't, they wouldn't be Loyalists. So I've given up attempting to speak reason to you, and right now, as my dear friend MirrorGod would say, I'm in it for the lulz.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
First of all. I'm a supporter of the Heideran policies and a progressivist.
No, Heideran policies simply put a kinder face on the same abuses. It treated Minmatar with patronising instead of overtly hostile language. Unless you support the abolition of slavery, you don't get to call yourself "progressive", because nothing apart from the radicals in your society are anything of the sort. As far as I'm concerned, you're all a basically homogenous blob of entirely identical people who viciously agree with each other at every chance you get. I have not yet seen anything that proves this to be otherwise. Basically, anything that you say is roughly interchangeable with anything that Rodj Blake says, and anything that he says is roughly interchangeable with anything Hardin says. The only real difference is the face from which the words tumble and the flowery prose you put in between the, ahem, "content".
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
I've always been one and it has at times put me at odds with more traditionalist organizations. I don't remember seeing YOU at Liparer II and ready to suicide your ship against a Kor-azor fleet in order to make a last stand to protect the planetary population (luckily that was not necessary as the Speakers of Truth intervened).
You're damn right you didn't. Loyalists constantly screech (Rodj Blake the loudest among them by many tens of decibels) that Amarrians are peace loving, so it's an excellent counter to that ridiculous statement when I see Amarrians ready to tear each other a part. It's ironic that your country has more internal strife than any other in this cluster and yet you call the Minmatar barbarians.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
blah blah blah Khanid
You know exactly what I meant. Perhaps next time I wilfully misinterpret something you say, and you complain about it, I'll remind you of this.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Also, "Pro-minmatar" and "pro-Ammatar" isn't the same thing either.
Yet both have exceptionally negative conotations, apparently.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Not to mention that my view of the general state of nature in the universe seems to have more in common with Amarrian scripture than actual reality.
Fixed that for you.
-----
CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Dance Commander |
Zan Maruke
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.17 18:01:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Zan Maruke on 17/12/2008 18:01:15
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
The Khanid were exiled from the empire over theological disagreements...
The Khanid people were never exiled from The Empire, sir. Some few have been there for a very long time and remain to this day. The Khanid, as it was told to me by my father and to him by his father before, served at the forefront of The Reclaiming under the standard of the True Amarr House of Khanid. In its wake, most of our people settled the vast expanses of territory which you now call The Khanid Kingdom along with those of Amarr blood and others besides.
The Cult of Tetrimon is an Amarrian cult exiled for theological reasons that Khanid II, blessed be his name, saw fit to shelter. Some among us, a few of those known as the Zealots, also adopted their teachings. Most of us have other concerns.
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Zan Maruke
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.17 18:16:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
As for Khanid.
Khanid is a Holder family, a people and a region. The region has little to do with the Khanid people, but is the domain of the Khanid Holder family (which happens to be pure-True Amarr).
The majority of the Khanid people, in fact, followed our traditional leaders in House Khanid when they settled the frontiers of The Empire during The Reclaiming. This is how it is told among my people.
Quote:
The Khanid people were NEVER exiled and the demographics of the Khanid kingdom in relation to the Khanid people is not much different from anywhere else in the empire. Everywhere the Khanid people are respected and treasured allies, a people who have always been at the forefront of Amarr expansion and has ceaselessly supported the Amarr cause.
We fought primarily under the standard of Khanid or, sometimes, as a detached element in Imperial formations. Indeed, The Empire was wise to recognize our ability and duly honored our warriors.
While I have heard often that the Kingdom is no different from the Empire in its racial composition I must beg to differ. While half of our people are Amarrian they are common Amarrians descended from the True Blooded mixed with assorted conquered peoples. Much like your Udorians in The Empire. Many of those are slaves, of course.
Of the rest the Khanid make up the balance followed by the True Amarr of House Khanid and other holders. Ni-Kunni and Caldari transplants make up a small but active minority.
This is what is reflected in the records of House Maruke and is, of course, not official but it does reflect what these two eyes have seen.
Quote:
When people say "pro-khanid" they mean that they support the Khanid holder family, which is an entirely different deal.
This is accurate. The Khanid people have no need of special politics of race as we are held aloft by our own history in The Empire and the faith we place in God and King in The Kingdom. House Khanid has always, and uniquely, served our people well and thus earned our love.
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Nirr'ti Kala
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.12.17 21:26:00 -
[69]
I know there is much talk along with this recent announcement, but I would like to add my word to this open discussion. As a regular resident of Ammatar Mandate I would like to give full welcome to CVA for their challenging of the pirates and rebellious population that resides in our lower security systems. With your help from 'Operation Deliverance' in the Ammatar Mandate I feel confident in saying that stability will be a well won battle. I agree when you say that it will not be overnight take over, but I do think we can win this uphill battle.
I will offer what assistance I can to CVA and all those, such as Ammatar Free Crops, in their battle against those of instability. Thank you again for your assistance in our region.
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Banichi Malguri
Amarr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.12.17 22:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Zan Maruke
<snip>
We fought primarily under the standard of Khanid or, sometimes, as a detached element in Imperial formations. Indeed, The Empire was wise to recognize our ability and duly honored our warriors.
<snip>
This may be true of your family sir.
At the time of the exile the head of my house was serving as a middle ranking officer in the Imperial Army. He decided that his duty as an Imperial soldier was more important than our ties to House Khanid, so we stayed. Members of my family also took part in the resultant fighting against the newly formed Kingdom. As a result a lot of the adult members of my house are serving to this day, and some have achieved staff rank.
My family still live on Athra, on a part of the lands that are the original home of the Khanid people.
--
Banichi Malguri. |
Vendrin
Caldari
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2008.12.18 09:53:00 -
[71]
Good hunting Ghost Festival.
_______________________________
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Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.18 10:50:00 -
[72]
I would like to thank everyone who has responded positively in this thread.
We are already seeing the fruits of cooperation with law-abiding corporations in the region (a recent hostile carrier kill in conjunction with Alternative Realites is one example of this). We hope that such cooperation will grow over time as we get to know each other better.
The pacification of Derelik is by no means an easy task and we are under no illusion that this is something that will be accomplished in the short term. Our goal is to provide support and assistance as and when we can to those law-abiding anti-pirate, anti-terrorist cops that call Derelik their home. CVA's resources are not infinite and we cannot be everywhere at once but we will do our best to work with local organisations to eliminate persistent pirate/terrorist strongholds and bases.
No low-sec region can ever be 100% secure (particular from individualist pirates and occasional raids) but, as we have shown in the existing Deliverance area, risk can be reduced signifcantly - allowing traders and entreprenuers to invest in the development of the region - benefiting the Amarrian exchequer and all who does business in there areas.
As highlighted we are keen to work with other law-abiding organisations in the region and I would point anyone interested in discussing this with us to the list of emissaries in the original post!
Amarr Victor
-----
Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services
Advert |
zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.19 11:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Poreuomai
I will never understand why there are Minmatar who help those racists who would enslave them given half a chance.
corruption. Somoeone siding with the slaver to turn on their brothers can only be greedy merc or a well controlled slave. Vitoc does silly things even to
pod-pilots with own ships and corporations..
good job karn on that 'starbridge drake' 
despite the funny but ever the same propaganda there can only be two possibilities as of why CVA is doing this:
a) they need new ressources of human cattle, minerals, and mercenaries or just village fools who would provide them with a new meatshield.
b) they need fresh material for their genpool, providence is full of incest
and the insanity rate is taking overhand.
(i am not sure though if sarum would approve this)
recruiting -forum
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Hagen Stein
Biotronics Inc.
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:35:00 -
[74]
Originally by: zoolkhan
Originally by: Poreuomai
I will never understand why there are Minmatar who help those racists who would enslave them given half a chance.
corruption. Somoeone siding with the slaver to turn on their brothers can only be greedy merc or a well controlled slave. Vitoc does silly things even to
pod-pilots with own ships and corporations..
No, sir. There's a third option: change the system from within.
I fly alongside with CVA to show them the advantages and supremacy of free spirited minds, who don't need idols to pray upon, in order to live a fulfilled life. That it's exactly that liberty, they seem to fear so awfully, which let's me decide where I go to and what cause to fight for.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.19 18:39:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Hagen Stein
No, sir. There's a third option: change the system from within.
I fly alongside with CVA to show them the advantages and supremacy of free spirited minds, who don't need idols to pray upon, in order to live a fulfilled life. That it's exactly that liberty, they seem to fear so awfully, which let's me decide where I go to and what cause to fight for.
You ... fight for freedom by siding with slavers' cause? Indeed, a truly unique mindset.
No doubt the many thousands of slaves who remain chained due to your defense of their oppressors fully appreciate your position on the matter.
--
Becq Starforged
Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Hagen Stein
Biotronics Inc.
Alternative Realities
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 00:22:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Hagen Stein on 20/12/2008 00:23:02
Originally by: Becq Starforged
No doubt the many thousands of slaves who remain chained due to your defense of their oppressors fully appreciate your position on the matter.
Well, you can force people to change their believes or you can convince people to change their believes. The former might be faster, but the later lastest longer, in my experience.
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Xornicon Altair
Woopatang
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Posted - 2008.12.20 05:28:00 -
[77]
So, what you're really trying to say is: "See you in space and may the best pirate win. Or, at least, may the best pirate **** off the rest of you."
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Daevonar
Minmatar
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.12.20 11:03:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
I've proven myself capable of rational decision and as my corporation's killboards will attest, I'm both capable in combat myself, and am also able to draw an equally capable fighting force around myself. Scagga, meanwhile, with his variable allegience and his almost self-admitted duplicity - he once tried (unsuccessfully, I might add) to convince people that the pledge of an allegience a Minmatar traitor made to the Republic, prior to defecting to the Ammatar Mandate, was non-binding and carried no responsibility or implication of loyalty. But you're right, Vikarion, Heaven ****ing forbid I use Occam's Razor and suggest that a man with such a variable allegience and a known willingness to wiggle out of stated agreements might be untrustworthy?
Since when has proficiency in the fire and chaos of battle ever been proof of rational thought? Some of the best fighter pilots are half crazed most of the time... now a good general, that's another matter.
Dae.
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Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's
Sons-Of-Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.21 14:07:00 -
[79]
well if one of my pilots is yelling on com¿s he is surrounded by a CVA patrol.....ill just say "great! now you can attack in every direction!".
Yeah maybe some of the more gullible CEO¿s will fall to this comercial from CVA,
tho in the end they will be the first to suffer when CVA has bugged the locals to the point that they take up arms.......and show CVA and their peons who is in charge in derelik
Grunt's
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity. |
Xornicon Altair
Woopatang
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Posted - 2008.12.21 19:24:00 -
[80]
OMG! It's true! They really are coming to Derelik! I ran into one of their carebear blobs today. I wasn't in a good ship to put up a fight (especially against 50 of them), so, I docked up to switch ships, smack talk in local, and they run away. Good show CVA and friends! It's clear that you don't have the backbone to backup your statements of liberation. I look forward to the next time that I don't have to fight you!
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Jonii
Woopatang
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Posted - 2008.12.21 19:38:00 -
[81]
OMG I was totally there!!! This has to be true, there were like 25 of them!
Hope CCP know your flying with that many so they can boost your fleet battles.
We are all doomed...
______________
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DeadDuck
Amarr
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.22 15:24:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Jonii
We are all doomed...
No you aren't. Embrace the CAUSE of a peaceful Derelik under the shelter of the Empire. Even if at the present Derelik is still living in the dark ages of barbarism and hordes of outlaws and terrorists, a LIGHT has appeared in the horizon. A Light of peace, prosperity, and wisdom.
Embrace the CAUSE and live...
________________
God is my Wingman |
Rustok
Cruor Frater
Coalition Of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2008.12.22 17:07:00 -
[83]
Operation Deliverance... that rings a bell.
I fought you and your lapdogs in 2004, granted we got beaten down ill give you that. I also fought you in 9uy in the so called pirate wars. When CVA came out and helped the terrorist in Ushra¦khan. Guess i¦m forced to fight you once more, and looking forward to it
I¦ll see you on the Battlefield
Former CEO of Hooligans of WAR
Rustok
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Wanoah
Minmatar
Msana Foundation
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Posted - 2008.12.23 04:02:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Rustok
When CVA came out and helped the terrorist in Ushra¦khan.
I'm just going to assume that was a typo. CVA have done many things, but helping the Ushra'Khan is definitely not one of them!
This is definitely bad news for any decent folk trying to make a living in the blood traitors' back yard. I hope all you, er, legitimate businessmen out there can put a dent in the CVA's aggressive expansionism.
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Shern
Minmatar
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.23 08:11:00 -
[85]
It is not legitimate to oppose the expansion of trade and prosperity, which a CVA presence in Derelik will help foster.
Derelik has been used as a punch-bag by tribal rebels, terrorists and low-life pirates for far too long. |
Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's
Sons-Of-Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.23 11:27:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Shern
It is not legitimate to oppose the expansion of trade and prosperity, which a CVA presence in Derelik will help foster.
Derelik has been used as a punch-bag by tribal rebels, terrorists and low-life pirates for far too long.
so in other terms you look foreward to unload your stockpile of slaves and vitoc on the market that has been denied to you in low sec?,
the words rebels and terrorists you fling out in a steady stream.....they might be butchers to you but they are saviors to the slaves and civilians you keep under your heel.
also the term "free trade" is alien to CVA....you will end up as their pack animals resting only when your masters wish it.
Grunt's
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity. |
Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
|
Posted - 2008.12.23 13:21:00 -
[87]
Your poor misguided and unfortunate race becomes more like a plague every passing day.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.23 15:54:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Wanoah
Originally by: Rustok
When CVA came out and helped the terrorist in Ushra¦khan.
I'm just going to assume that was a typo. CVA have done many things, but helping the Ushra'Khan is definitely not one of them!
Depends on how you interpret the events of the first Siege for 9uy4-h (between the Ushra'khan and the now dissolved Pirate Coalition).
At a few points there were CVA fleets operating in 9uy4-h while the siege was going on, primarily engaging Pirate Coalition vessels.
Though in my opinion it was more of a situation where the CVA had an opportunity to kill some reds that were conveniently gathered and shooting each other. Two flies with one stone. The pirate coalition fleets though were simply more exposed to outside interference.
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2008.12.23 18:35:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Hagen Stein
Edited by: Hagen Stein on 20/12/2008 00:23:02
Originally by: Becq Starforged
No doubt the many thousands of slaves who remain chained due to your defense of their oppressors fully appreciate your position on the matter.
Well, you can force people to change their believes or you can convince people to change their believes. The former might be faster, but the later lastest longer, in my experience.
if i had just one bullet in my gun, and you and your holder hardin in front of me ...
..i would shoot you.
recruiting -forum
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Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's
Sons-Of-Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.24 00:53:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Adeptus mecanicus on 24/12/2008 00:53:14
Originally by: Suitonia
Your poor misguided and unfortunate race becomes more like a plague every passing day.
guess the MIX in thukker mix makes you uneasy....our gain your loss
Grunt's
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity. |
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