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make guns a little more funtional and realistic here

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SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:31:00 - [31] how does it fail? at its current speed its fine but could improve the ammo it can hold for everyone complains about it. problem solved as the other wepons fire slower and maybe lose some of the ammo amount it can hold to meet minmitar wepons
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Skerrd Originally by: SpawnSupreme Edited by: SpawnSupreme on 15/12/2008 11:59:54 double minmitar gun ROF and reduce damage by half i think making minmitar hit more often at less damage will be more fun and apealing and make them more usefull in close range combat with gangs. Wouldn't that basically force you to reload more often, increasing ammo consumption and reducing your dps over time? But what do I know, my guns use infinite ammo and have no reload time. Now your just being mean. Its not my fault my rails are only better than lasors at 150km+ okayyyyy! Because we all know that SOO much pvp takes palce at over 150km+ EVE history t2 precisions
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 04:44:00 - [33] Here's those ship setups - sorry, got a bit sidetracked with trying to grind isk for GTCs -_- [Armageddon, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Dark Blood Armor Explosive Hardener Dark Blood Armor Kinetic Hardener Dark Blood Armor Thermic Hardener True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Reactor Control Unit II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Dark Blood Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800 Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Xray L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 [Typhoon, New Setup 3] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Torpedo Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 SpawnSupreme, I don't think I'll be able to justify it for you, but I'll list some tactics that I think are fairly relevant in EVE's current PVP 'landscape'. If you are camping a station, as an example, you can have Amarr battleships sitting at some 60km from it, and afford them the ability to deal equal DPS to anything either at the station or 120km from the station, in their direction. This gives them coverage from logistics within docking range of the station. This is one of the applications of Amarr's mid-ranged combat capabilities. With Minmatar, you are afforded a comparatively high agility, small signature radius and massive alpha-for-range, allowing you to warp between multiple points around a battle, completely avoiding jamming, tackling or damage, while adding considerable amounts of damage to the battle. You've not seen a scorpion pilot sweat until you've been warping around him to various bookmarks located 90km from him every time, in a rupture, taking out half of his shields before he's able to lock you, only to have you warp off to a new bookmark, breaking his lock, and having you plowing into his shields again. With Caldari, specifically Ravens, you are afforded full-battlefield coverage with a linear damage profile (provided the target is big enough, slow enough and is not warping), meaning that you can 'keep people off your gang'. That, or you can fit a pretty mean tank and siege launchers and help make pretty holes in the enemy's hull. With Gallente, you have one of the most formidable front-lines toe-to-toe combat platforms, and many ships capable of dealing damage even while jammed (points in case the vexor, myrmidon, ishtar, dominix, eos). Caldari having this same ability in the usage of FOFs, albeit a bit more limited in practicality.
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:03:00 - [34] fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.... if i see minmitar ship warping off i may not pay much attention to him for the battle will be over before he returns thus landing in a bad spot if we won hehe. if he continues to pest jumping arround he will give me plenty time while in warp to change tactics and catch him or run him off for i will put to much pressure he be only foolish to continue to toy arround. minmitar ships take as long as any other ship to aquire targets so if his bs hops arrond he has to lock me giving me time to lock him. you know what there is 101 ways to shut your tricks down and that is nothing no race cant do> and minmitar do not do enough damage to hit run return hit run return and expect a win. my shilds will regen far to fast fo any hit and run minmitar to take down and thats with an armor tank ship hehe. minmitar wepons are slower to simulate world war 2 wepons and the damage boost is to attempt to bring them online with other race ships. but if your minmitar you do not take any enemy down with you if your ganked because you ROF so slow by the time your ready to fire your third volly of guns your in a pod... where as someone with hybrid or lasers with thier much faster fire rate can make it possible for 5 people to kill you as you kill 1 of them hehe. this is the complaint this is a tactic you cant counter unless you even the ROF and damage mods of all race wepons. minmitar ships can fit nearly as good tank as other races if they fill mids and lows with tank mods where as other races can fit tank in lows or med slots and fit e-war in oposite section. minmitar are by design to be paper thin but do heavy damage but what good is heavy damage if the dps realisticly is same hehe. what good is minmitar ship if its outnumbered hehe. well all ships fail outnumberd by odds but minmitar fail the fastest if fitted as the intended minmitar ships are. minmitar ships would be fare more usefull if it can 1000 damage over 7 vollys than 1000 damage in 2 vollies. i have already explaind why and better fit gorilla tactics. or call it ninja tacticks they both require element of suprise.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 23:23:00 - [35] Ok, given your seemingly blatant ignorance and repeated 'hehe' usage, I am calling a troll on this thread. [Rupture, New Setup 2] Signal Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M Standard Missile Launcher II, Defender I Standard Missile Launcher II, Defender I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] This setup does, with lvl4 support skills and lvl5 minmatar cruiser, a 1k volley every 7 seconds at a range of about 90km or so. You seem to have misunderstood what I was talking about when I referred to warping to multiple bookmarks... when you are at the station, at a bookmark some 100km off it at a particular point, you lock a battleship in your cruiser, and fire off anything between one and four volleys at him, depending on his locking speed, before he gains a lock on you - you are already aligned by this time, and *you do not warp away from the station, but instead to another bookmark located somewhere else around the station*. Thus you always have a clear view of what is going on around the station, and don't waste time warping off to a safespot to warp back - you're engaging only one warp which will take as long to enter and exit as your guns do to load in the next cycle. Anyway, your ignorance of the weapons in this game leads me to believe that your thread was created without the knowledge required to make accurate statements regarding the current game mechanics and how they work. Please go revise the weapons at the soonest opportunity available to you.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 23:25:00 - [36] Also, you may want to pay attention to the fact that while rails can fire twice as fast as artillery, they only do half the damage per volley that artillery does.
Farseer Zellrenech	Posted - 2008.12.23 11:47:00 - [37] Edited by: Farseer Zellrenech on 23/12/2008 11:48:34 it apears spawn supream and player above me are not on same wave length. this minmitar problem must be getting a fix some day because there are far more cry for minmitar than all other race put together lol so i guess there is no doubt there is much lacking in minmitar race. so i guess cut the ROF in half for lasers and hybrids and doubleing thier damage bonus will even the play field for all wepons and i noticed minmitar tracking is largly behind as well but it is not mention b4 so i wont say much else about that
Ivana Bejay	Posted - 2008.12.23 13:31:00 - [38] i guess a nerf to speed will be a bonus to ammo capacity and with damage increased to ballance dps cant be much to complain about and lotta people say amarr is the new in race to train cuz they are thought of most as be the strongest race atm so adversly you be nerfing amarr with this thier never reload and pounding on poor realoing ships is a smaller gap for the guns reload less often with less ROF making never reload still uber but not as big as it once was. problem solved minmitar get a little love and amarr gave that love to them essentualy.
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:48:00 - [39] very accurate points ivana, would like to see what ccp has in store for minmitar because i honestly dont think it will stay like this
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:50:00 - [40] So pure photon energy (lasers) and plasma energy (hybrids) should deal more damage in a single hit than something using kinetic energy (projectiles)? Autocannons and Hybrid weapons are in essence toe-to-toe in dps. You are trading off a bit of dps for the fact that your weapons use literally no capacitor to fire; all the dps in the world means nothing if you haven't got the cap to fire them. The same thus applies to energy weapons - if you're capped out, nobody's going to pay any attention to you if there's projectile or missile users in the battlefield that they can't switch of save for jamming. You see, I get the feeling that the majority of complaints about minmatar stems from the fact that people don't like that Amarr and Gallente ships seem to do so much better in strictly PVE circumstances. When it comes to PVP, you're playing a whole new game where the 'normal' rules don't apply. You can and will be jammed. You can and will have your cap drained. You can and will have to survive a far higher amount of damage than you're used to. You can and will have issues managing your cap during an engagement, because unlike PVE, the people you're fighting with are putting an external strain on your capacitor. With regards to my statement between the Geddon and the Phoon, and minmatar having setups that can render Amarr ships useless, specifically keep in mind that in gang engagements you can encounter this kind of scenario: You have 4x of the aforementioned Armageddons and 4x differently fit Typhoons fighting. These Typhoons have guns/missiles, their drones, cap neuts and NOS fitted. They distribute their NOS and cap neuts such that any ship they're not neuting, they are draining, while they all focus their firepower on a single target. The end result is that while they may only output about 650dps or so each, combined they are dealing 2600dps to a single target, and none of them are taking any further damage because their targets have been rendered capless. Sure, the Geddons will be able to fire a bit before they cap out, but I doubt they will be able to jointly eliminate even one of these Typhoons before they run out of cap, depending on everyone's starting positions and the gangs' joint coordination. So no, Minmatar are not by any means 'weak', and their artillery do not need their rate of fire improved. If ships are merely applying damage-over-time to a single target, then repair-over-time can be applied to the same target to keep them alive - this repair coming in the form of logistics. However, if you have the alpha strike to completely eliminate all of a target's HP in one salvo, then all the remote logistics in the world won't mean a thing. he has 85% resists to whatever damage types you're dealing and has a 54k buffer? Ok, fine, so your 5k alpha from ~65km in a Maelstrom with a 1.25x hit type for the group bringing it up to 6,200 is reduced to 930. Now what if you have 10 of these ships? That's 9.3k. 20? 18.6k. 30? 27.9k. They have all of ten seconds to figure out who's being primaried before the second volley comes in, bringing this up to 55.8k. Logistics they may have may be promptly neutralized, as depending on the position of a logistics ship, it could be taken out as tho it were a fly, by this kind of gang. If it's a carrier in triage, nerf its locking range and it's hardly a threat to anyone. A dual Shadow Serp sensor boosting Thanatos can be brought down to a measly 25km> locking range by a single lachesis with decent skills and some information wafare linking. This from a good range where it can be covered by friendly logistics. It may not be nice, but even in the real world, blobbing is a real tactic in warfare; it's done to increase survivability and to take out the enemy as efficiently as possible. If you don't like this, then combat may simply not be for you.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:59:00 - [41] The DPS of a 1400mm Howie II with RF EMP L is 68 with lvl5 skills on a maelstrom with 3x Gyrostab IIs. The DPS of a 425mm Railgun II with Fed Navy Antimatter L is 74 with lvl5 skills on a megathron with 2x MFS II. When working with tremor and spike, we find the guns have almost the same range, have the same dps and the howitzers come out with a superior alpha. This is when factoring reloading times into the DPS calculation. It may be annoying that minmatar guns have to reload so often, but if you pay attention to their dps over time you will notice that they are quite similar.
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:26:00 - [42] i think you fail to see that minmitar ships that are cought and out numbered often fitted with poor tank to bring a bit of e-war and so they die fast then the thips fire so slow it does not get even half as many vollys to its targets? what if you are wantingto take someone down with you but your first person you shoot is so well tanked you know is not going down with you? your ship will not survive priority change so might as well turn off guns and get ready for your pod to run... if the guns had better ROF then the guns would recover faster and allow possible time to redirect priority and cross fingers and hope you take 1 with you? if you max out tank your not useing minmi ships as intended... buts lets just say that minmi ship is max tank in pvp it still lacks in tracking!!! why cant minmitars guns being the worst of all races be the payment of no cap use??? if you wanna leave minmi guns slow the traking needs improvement because no matter what fitting you put in eft minmi ships will never come close to doing the said damage if it is moving at all even slow...
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:24:00 - [43] Why are you all still pushing an idea that will cause more lag? Originally by: CCP Nozh Higher ROF, more server calls, more lag.
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:26:00 - [44] the idea has mutated through discussion if you are fallowing along...
ScienceOfficer Eillane	Posted - 2008.12.25 11:51:00 - [45] me new to combat think need this for my ships
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.26 05:12:00 - [46] Right, definitely alt trolling as far as I'm concerned. Rounding up the characters I can find and reporting them for investigation.
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:20:00 - [47] im bringing you a lovly givft of death enys cissalc lol hope you like the inside of your station for you be there till you quit eve muhahaha
Iron Soldiers	Posted - 2008.12.27 13:53:00 - [48] wow this idea if made available, would definately make me go back to my original race ships. i pick minmitar becase of thier back story then i find no one likes minmitar because they explain to me they suck so i stop train minmitar early and started train galente for they are minmitars friends.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.27 15:51:00 - [49] spawnsupreme/emporors champian/whatever alt you want to use to post, please observe the following two things: 1. The Features & Ideas forum is not a place for threatening other players with ingame violence; the other forum categories exist for this. You can instead create a thread declaring to a player your intentions, and link to the instigating thread, or contact players ingame to voice your intent. 2. This is the default character for this account, but is not this account's main. You want to direct your attention to AnonyTerrorNinja, which would be my main. My forum settings are constantly reset, so changing it back to AnonyTerrorNinja the whole time is plainly annoying to do. Have fun.
Ineeda Bejay	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:46:00 - [50] hey this is not hitting the missiles with a nerf bat but maybe nessesary who know something to determin through test and trials
Xinala Breez	Posted - 2008.12.31 12:25:00 - [51] saouds fair enough but didnt read some of the long responces but from what i got it is an idea that make things more interesting
Giribaldi	Posted - 2009.01.02 16:32:00 - [52] cant see or think of a reason not to change to one of these ideas but i kinda dont wanna shoot slower but i cant complain if im doing more damage at slower rof if and only if the can keep a simmular dps value.
Farseer Zellrenech	Posted - 2009.01.05 10:02:00 - [53] signed
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2009.01.06 09:43:00 - [54] im so glad this idea is being cosiddered by dev team, good job peeps way to team up to help get this working
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.06 12:03:00 - [55] no. one of the strengths of minmatar is it's alpha strikes. It's already been nerfed pretty badly and you are talking about nerfing it in half, compounding the reload problem, and causing more lag. this is a very bad idea. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Bente Blomst	Posted - 2009.01.06 13:09:00 - [56] It doesn't matter what kills you. A tiny laser beam burning holes in you or a 10 tonn rock splatting you. You will still be dead anyway. Minmatar ships fit the catapult and throw gigantic rocks at you. Catapulted gigantic rocks have huge alpha strike and low rof. Actually it should bump you out of orbit aswell, and a chance at breaking your locks in the shaking. Lockbreaker rocks, now that would be something.
ScienceOfficer Aracelli	Posted - 2009.01.07 03:22:00 - [57] Quote: It doesn't matter what kills you. A tiny laser beam burning holes in you or a 10 tonn rock splatting you. You will still be dead anyway. Minmatar ships fit the catapult and throw gigantic rocks at you. Catapulted gigantic rocks have huge alpha strike and low rof. Actually it should bump you out of orbit aswell, and a chance at breaking your locks in the shaking. Lockbreaker rocks, now that would be something. ???? whats this all about???? is this a troll or a bump
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2009.01.08 04:21:00 - [58] where is calis it his turn to post.
SpawnSupreme	Posted - 2009.01.09 12:57:00 - [59] Edited by: SpawnSupreme on 09/01/2009 12:58:23 already told ya
Farseer Zellrenech	Posted - 2009.01.11 11:16:00 - [60] i will stear clear on anyone with a rock launcher.

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