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Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.19 00:53:00 - [1] Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 19/12/2008 00:59:45 but this is getting serious. I've been seeing how one guy gets jammed and can't fight and dies, but this one kills all solo pirating whatsoever. How? Well let me show you. So I engage this destroyer in my tristan fit with ECCM, was totally beating it up, broke its tank, he was in structure without touching my armor, and his jam finally rolls a good hit, and I'm jammed...no way to scram him, he warps away. Jams make warpstabs obsolete. Jams make warpscrams only a "might keep him there" button. Even though I had ECCM, by the time I finally break someone's tank, they've gotten ONE good jam on me, enough to get him warped out of course. I don't care if you don't want to nerf ECM, but now even one jammer is a good fit for someone worried about losing a solo PVP fight regardless of scramblers/disruptors. Sure, this doesn't effect 0.0 if you're solo-ing in a dictor. Congrats for you if you're surviving 0.0 doing solo PVP in a dictor. Solo PVP is now reduced to the winner being able to get the guy popped before his jammer rolls a lucky hit. Sure, you can say "omg moar DPS and solution!" but in fights like a 16 day old tristan vs a month or two old cormorant....there's just no more DPS that I can fit. There's nothing I could have fit to stop that apparently. I was nos/nueting him so don't tell me I could have done that. This you might call "bad luck"...but now I know I'm fitting a jam instead of afterburner, because I dont use AB on orbit anyway, I only use AB to run away from scram...now I can just hope I jam you before my tank runs out. edit: if you're wondering why Im ECCMing instead of webbing, it's because I get jammed so much lately it's not even funny.
sdthujfg	Posted - 2008.12.19 01:38:00 - [2] Yeah ecm is stupid. Just do like everyone else, decloak a falcon alt, jam the crap out of your target so he can't fire back nor ecm you back and kill him with a dps ship of your choice that doesn't even need to be tanked because of your 200km ranged jammin falcon alt.
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.19 01:41:00 - [3] Falcon alt=the new solo PVP must-have?
Tarn Reis	Posted - 2008.12.19 07:30:00 - [4] Originally by: Allahs Warrior Falcon alt=the new solo PVP must-have? New? Where the hell have you been? Falcon alts have been the norm and standard for a long while.
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:10:00 - [5] Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 19/12/2008 08:10:28 I was making a joke...using an ALT is not solo PVP, it's gangbangsturbation...edited for clarfication
The Tzar Malicious Intentions The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.19 13:22:00 - [6] You were in a frigate, even with ECCM your sensor strength will be rubbish. Why shouldn't an 80M isk ship with 50M of mods incapacitate your 1M ship? __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
sdthujfg	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:06:00 - [7] Originally by: The Tzar You were in a frigate, even with ECCM your sensor strength will be rubbish. Why shouldn't an 80M isk ship with 50M of mods incapacitate your 1M ship? Maybe because a SB on any sized ship counters a Damp? Maybe because a TC on any sized ship counters a TD? Why shouldn't one ECCM counter one ECM module in the same way, even on a frig? Ah that's right, you want to keep your overpowered falcon intact or playing dumb.
Dax Ee'nnach Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:17:00 - [8] Edited by: Dax Ee''nnach on 19/12/2008 14:20:07 Originally by: sdthujfg Maybe because a SB on any sized ship counters a Damp? Maybe because a TC on any sized ship counters a TD? Why shouldn't one ECCM counter one ECM module in the same way, even on a frig? How about because a Damp works 100% of the time. How about because a TD works 100% of the time. How about because Jamming is a CHANCE based mechanic. Do you see the difference now? Do the math. The OP whines because his "I Win" button got a little gummed up - boo hoo. The ship he was pewpewing probably have had four mid slots spent on ECM to his 1 mid slot on ECCM, but he still seems to expect think he got the raw end of that stick.
DjLowballer Amarr FLASHTROOPER CORP	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:23:00 - [9] A ship devoted solely to jamming focusing on one target should very rarely fail. Please Vote DjLowballer as your delegate to the CSM!
Dax Ee'nnach Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:31:00 - [10] A ship foxused soley on jamming one racial will have a very good chance to succeed - against ships of that race. But, how often in pvp (non-fleet) do you KNOW what your opponent is flying. If you are ratting in an ECM ship, do you know what sorta ship a pirate is going to pop in with? If you answered anything but NO, then I have some lottery picks I want to go over with you. A solo ECM ship is either going with as many multispecs as possible and still be capable of what it is the pilot really wants to do with it, or it is carrying one of each racial and still be able to do what the pilot intended to do solo. Now, given that, it is likely that the ship will have only one or two jammers to use on any attacker. Go do the math and you will see that the chances are still low. The OP even stated that he had his opponent into structure until the opponent WAS LUCKY ENOUGH to get a successful jam and GTFO. This, like a lot of others, is a whine about a jammed up "I WIN" button no working.
Friedrick Psitalon The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.19 14:32:00 - [11] If you think a single sensor booster or tracking computer negates their opposites in EWAR, you need to check the reality of the math. ;)
Dax Ee'nnach Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon If you think a single sensor booster or tracking computer negates their opposites in EWAR, you need to check the reality of the math. ;) I don't think that, I didn't say that. A dampner or a TD will do 100% of what the module+ship+pilot skills state it does. if, for example, taking into account the module+ship+pilot, a dampner has a value of 50%, the it will damp its targets sensor strength by the stated amount - 100% of the time. On the other hand, if an ECM jammer fails to jam, the target is completely unaffected by the module for the cycle. Period. Dampers and TDs always work as stated, ECM is chance based. Some posters seem to forget that.
Friedrick Psitalon The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.19 18:20:00 - [13] Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 19/12/2008 18:22:12 Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 19/12/2008 18:21:19 Sorry, I should've quoted, I was referring to the silly poster above you claiming that a sensor booster negated a damp, and so on. This fellow: Originally by: sdthujfg Originally by: The Tzar You were in a frigate, even with ECCM your sensor strength will be rubbish. Why shouldn't an 80M isk ship with 50M of mods incapacitate your 1M ship? Maybe because a SB on any sized ship counters a Damp? Maybe because a TC on any sized ship counters a TD? Why shouldn't one ECCM counter one ECM module in the same way, even on a frig? Ah that's right, you want to keep your overpowered falcon intact or playing dumb. A SB has nowhere near the ability to counter a damp, nor a TC against a TD. I'd say they're about as effective as ECCM is against ECM - a help, but by no means a rock to scissors.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.19 18:55:00 - [14] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/12/2008 18:55:42 Originally by: Allahs Warrior Falcon alt=the new solo PVP must-have module for every ship? A blackbird alt does the trick just fine, no need for a falcon really. Or a griffin alt if you are that cheap.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.19 19:00:00 - [15] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/12/2008 19:03:24 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/12/2008 19:01:11 Originally by: sdthujfg Maybe because a SB on any sized ship counters a Damp? Maybe because a TC on any sized ship counters a TD? Why shouldn't one ECCM counter one ECM module in the same way, even on a frig? Ah that's right, you want to keep your overpowered falcon intact or playing dumb. For the record, you need at least: * 1 SB to counter one damp * 2 TCs to counter one TD and * 1 ECCM to reduce the effect of an infinite amount of ecm modules by 50%. See how eccm is in fact the most powerful anti-ewar module available?
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:37:00 - [16] I am not complaining about the falcon. I am complaining about how he probably fit ONE multispectral jammer, I had him in structure, and he got away. In solo PVP, RSD's on either ship usually does little to nothing, unless one ship is heavily RSD'd and they can't even lock at 20KM, but most ships scram instead of disrupt anyway. Other than that, effects are minimal if not zero. In solo PVP, a tracking disruptor lowers, and in some cases, removes DPS completely (if you cant hit, ever). In solo PVP, a single jammer and a tank that will last you, say (ballpark) 10 cycles, cancels scrambling no matter what long enough to warp, cancels all DPS (except from drones in some cases, and for many ships, there is no drones bay, or they don't have DPS drones but tank-maintenance drones or something), cancels all nosferatu which may be necessary to maintain your opponents tank because he's fighting outside of his ship class, and allows you to MWD, warp, and cancels any web effects as well. Sure, it's chance based, but if the chance is super low, even 10%, chances become better and better the longer you tank, until you can count on the jam working. Why fit a warpstab when u can fit a jam?
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.20 10:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Allahs Warrior I am not complaining about the falcon. I am complaining about how he probably fit ONE multispectral jammer, I had him in structure, and he got away. Well, in that case you were just super unlucky, against one unbonused multispec ecm, even on a frigate the eccm reduces his jam chance to a point where it is absolutely not worth fitting the ecm when there are tons of better options for that mid. He got lucky with a stupid fit, this can happen. On a sidenote, slots on frigates are precious, I'd suggest find a better module for that slot, as with the size of your possible targets, ecm should rarely be the issue. Dont gimp your setup, the people using jammers on you where eccm would help are not a problem for you.
Sanka Cofie Amarr Fractured Core	Posted - 2008.12.20 18:19:00 - [18] Edited by: Sanka Cofie on 20/12/2008 18:20:26 I love how a topic about a destroyer with one ECM escaping a tristan with one ECCM suddenly morphed into people angrily claiming that the OP is stupid because a Falcon is an 80M isk ship and should always beat a Tristan. Don't schools teach reading comprehension anymore? Identify the subject? No? It almost seems like people feel compelled to respond to a thread without actually reading any of the posts. Case in point: Uber Pirate LoL Thread ~-~-~-~-~ -[WillChat4ISK]- I can be the handsome Amarr space captain. You can be the helpless Minmatar slave girl.
rofflesausage	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Allahs Warrior but this is getting serious. I've been seeing how one guy gets jammed and can't fight and dies, but this one kills all solo pirating whatsoever. Don't go solo then. It's a MMO, play it like a MMO. Originally by: Allahs Warrior So I engage this destroyer in my tristan fit with ECCM, was totally beating it up, broke its tank, he was in structure without touching my armor, and his jam finally rolls a good hit, and I'm jammed...no way to scram him, he warps away. Important bit highlighted. It could have not been a good hit and he would have died. Yet the simple fact that he got away means it's not fair? lol. Originally by: Allahs Warrior Jams make warpstabs obsolete. No they don't. You're ignoring the fact that jams don't always work. Warp core stabs do, assuming that the number of scram points balances with the stabs. That plus if there is more than one person scramming him, then that's two people that need to be jammed, at the same time. If it's a dedicated ECM ship like the Blackbird / Falcon, then you should already know that there is a bloody good chance that they will have ECM fitted and decide if you engage accordingly. If it's not a specialist ECM ship and they have multiple jammers fitted, they have seriously gimped some other aspect of their ship. Two ECM's on most Caldari ships means their tank is nerfed as a result. You didn't find their hole, they found yours. Originally by: Allahs Warrior Jams make warpscrams only a "might keep him there" button. Even though I had ECCM, by the time I finally break someone's tank, they've gotten ONE good jam on me, enough to get him warped out of course. So they got lucky? That's the entire basis of your argument? If he had blown up then ECM would have been underpowered, right? Originally by: Allahs Warrior I don't care if you don't want to nerf ECM, but now even one jammer is a good fit for someone worried about losing a solo PVP fight regardless of scramblers/disruptors. If jammers are that good - fit one and jam them first. If they are jammed, they can't jam you (apart from burst ECM). Originally by: Allahs Warrior Solo PVP is now reduced to the winner being able to get the guy popped before his jammer rolls a lucky hit. No it's not. Other alternatives are: Friendly people in the system you were not aware of, or ready to jump in and save his ass More stabs than you had points on him Been nano fitted and got out of your scram range He drains your cap so that your scram deactivates He has a sensor damping boat which kills your range I'm sure there are more. ECM is just one* of the available methods of getting away. Originally by: Allahs Warrior This you might call "bad luck"...but now I know I'm fitting a jam instead of afterburner, because I dont use AB on orbit anyway, I only use AB to run away from scram...now I can just hope I jam you before my tank runs out. Well done sir! A whine post about ECM, that then goes on to actually adapt to the situation. Makes a change
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Allahs Warrior he was in structure without touching my armor, and his jam finally rolls a good hit, and I'm jammed...no way to scram him, he warps away. "MY OPPONENT WAS ROLLING DICE AND HE GOT A 6, THIS IS SO UNFAIR PLEASE NERF 6s" -----------
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.21 07:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Scatim Helicon Originally by: Allahs Warrior he was in structure without touching my armor, and his jam finally rolls a good hit, and I'm jammed...no way to scram him, he warps away. "MY OPPONENT WAS ROLLING DICE AND HE GOT A 6, THIS IS SO UNFAIR PLEASE NERF 6s" "I WAS SETUP SO THAT I HAD 10 DICE ALL ROLLING FIVES AND SIXES AND HE ROLLED ONE SIX AND THAT = DRAW, PLEASE NERF DEFENSIVE SIXES FOR THE SAKE OF SOLO PVP" also I said it kills solo PVP, not that it should be nerfed. As shown above, I am fitting ecm instead of clammering for a nerf. Why? because if they're jammed, they can't jam me...lol.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:02:00 - [22] Honestly, I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions. You have low skills, and from what I can tell your setup was not really good either. Still you almost won the fight, thats not a bad start. With better skills and a better ship/setup you'd have won in 95% of engagements against the same opponent I'm sure. There's always the odd chance you get jammed regardless how good your sensors are (and you can always get jammed by a random NPC while fighting). To get better with gallente frigates, you should get skills for microwarpdrive and small t2 blasters. Pretty much always fit microwarpdrive, scrambler and webifier (in that order if less than 3 mids). Maybe skill for assault ships and interceptors as a short term goal in pvp, the Ishkur/Taranis/Enyo are all very good ships you can solo in, and you can get up on par with veteran players in these ship classes quicker compared to the bigger ones. You could get into faction warfare, there is plenty of opportunity to fight for solo frigate pilots.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:42:00 - [23] You all got trolled.
rofflesausage	Posted - 2008.12.21 17:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Corstaad You all got trolled. Yes, after rereading it today I suspect you're right. 6/10 for OP. Decent effort.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2008.12.21 18:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Sanka Cofie Edited by: Sanka Cofie on 20/12/2008 18:20:26 I love how a topic about a destroyer with one ECM escaping a tristan with one ECCM suddenly morphed into people angrily claiming that the OP is stupid because a Falcon is an 80M isk ship and should always beat a Tristan. Don't schools teach reading comprehension anymore? Identify the subject? No? It almost seems like people feel compelled to respond to a thread without actually reading any of the posts. Case in point: Uber Pirate LoL Thread This. OP didn't say anything about falcons. OP was commenting on how a destroyer with 1 ecm jammed a ship with eccm. Was the destroyer even bonused for jamming?
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:44:00 - [26] the most important thing that I got out of this thread is the realization that ECCM sucks for frigates, and frigates need ECCM the most. This should be fixed.
Mickey Simon Noir.	Posted - 2008.12.23 06:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Allahs Warrior frigates need ECCM the most Why's that? Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . .
Roccia19 Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2008.12.23 06:35:00 - [28] well here is a clue...your magnometric base strength sucks and a ECCM doesn't really help. So guess what tuff luck, move on to the next belt and flip the next can.
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.23 06:40:00 - [29] ECM effectiveness increases as your sensor strength decreases (almost parallel to ship size, not including t2 differences). ECCM effectiveness decreases as your sensor strength decreases Warp stab stay the same on all ships TD effectiveness and TC effectivness increase as you have a smaller ship. RSD....well...honestly who uses RSD's on frigs when you're 10KM away anyway, but RSD's effectiveness decreases as lock range (and usually therefore ship size) decreases Sensor boosters follow suit. The odd man out, reversing the curve completely, makes it harder to a frig to counter ECM (When it needs the most boost out of ECCM) than any other ship.
Artanixir Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.23 10:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Allahs Warrior Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 20/12/2008 00:54:39 Sure, it's chance based, but if the chance is super low, even 10%, chances become better and better the longer you tank, until you can count on the jam working. This made me lol :) i'm fairly sure it would stay at 10% --- If Common sense is so common, why is it so rare
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Artanixir This made me lol :) i'm fairly sure it would stay at 10% Congrats, if you flip a coin for 30 minutes, after you flip it again, you still have around 50% chance. However, chances of getting BOTH sides of the coin(or whatever side of the coin you want) over a longer period time of coin-flipping increase as the time increases. So say you can survive for ONE cycle of the jam. You have a 10% chance of jamming. But now say you can survive for 2 cycles of the jam? 19% chance of surviving. 3? ARound 28%. 4? around 35%. 5 cycles? around 41%. It continues and continues until one jammer gives you great chances, like 90% chance of surviving just because you've fit a jammer, which is like a limit to how long a solo fight can happen now. You either have to jam them, or kill them, before their jammer gets enough cycles on you to finally score a good hit.
Greek Dionysus	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:56:00 - [32] I would like to say, jamming is fine. Last night my Blackbird was jumped by 2 rapiers. I managed to get out with 62% hull after I managed get a jam on both and got the hell out of dodge. Boy that was epic. ECM is different.. And it really is chance based. Sometimes you can go a whole rack of ECM trying to get a ship jammed, and all of them failing. Sometimes you can just run 1 ECM and keep them permajammed.
Allahs Warrior Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism	Posted - 2008.12.23 20:24:00 - [33] is that what EVE should be about though? Whoever just so happened to be luckier with their jam?
BruisedMoon Amarr Power Seed Enterprises A.X.I.S	Posted - 2008.12.23 20:26:00 - [34] Edited by: BruisedMoon on 23/12/2008 20:28:07 Originally by: Dax Ee'nnach A ship foxused soley on jamming one racial will have a very good chance to succeed - against ships of that race. But, how often in pvp (non-fleet) do you KNOW what your opponent is flying. If you are ratting in an ECM ship, do you know what sorta ship a pirate is going to pop in with? If you answered anything but NO, then I have some lottery picks I want to go over with you. A solo ECM ship is either going with as many multispecs as possible and still be capable of what it is the pilot really wants to do with it, or it is carrying one of each racial and still be able to do what the pilot intended to do solo. Now, given that, it is likely that the ship will have only one or two jammers to use on any attacker. Go do the math and you will see that the chances are still low. The OP even stated that he had his opponent into structure until the opponent WAS LUCKY ENOUGH to get a successful jam and GTFO. This, like a lot of others, is a whine about a jammed up "I WIN" button no working. Man, your a cald pilot and still your breath smells of ******. NEVER EVER EVEN EVER THINK ABOUT EVER EVEN A LITTLE BIT THINKING ABOUT DOING IT OR KIND OF THINKING ABOUT THINKINGA BOUT DOING IT, fit a multispec jammer! They are completely and utterly useless, a full mid wrack of one racial spec is more usefull agsent an offrace then a full wrack of multispecs. I know because I have a maxed out falcon alt... stack two or 3 off racials on one ship if you need to but dont bring a freaking multispec! Any ECM ship that is made for ECM is paper thin and dies if anything looks at it wrong.. so it balances a bit here.. personalyl It hink maybe the falcon range needs a bit of a range reduction.. cause it can be sick! On non ECM boats you pretty much gotta stack a full rack of none racials and at least 2 racials on a ship to even kind of depend on ecm.
BruisedMoon Amarr Power Seed Enterprises A.X.I.S	Posted - 2008.12.23 20:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Allahs Warrior ECM effectiveness increases as your sensor strength decreases (almost parallel to ship size, not including t2 differences). ECCM effectiveness decreases as your sensor strength decreases Warp stab stay the same on all ships TD effectiveness and TC effectivness increase as you have a smaller ship. RSD....well...honestly who uses RSD's on frigs when you're 10KM away anyway, but RSD's effectiveness decreases as lock range (and usually therefore ship size) decreases Sensor boosters follow suit. The odd man out, reversing the curve completely, makes it harder to a frig to counter ECM (When it needs the most boost out of ECCM) than any other ship. instead of fitting an ECCM try the low slot sensor strength boosters, theres one for everytype.. and I Think a multispec one as well... Those might work a little bit better, and alot better with your ECCM module ;)
Pericles Redstorm Caldari FishBones	Posted - 2008.12.23 22:43:00 - [36] Edited by: Pericles Redstorm on 23/12/2008 22:45:25 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=511720 Please Read and Understand that.
4THELULZ	Posted - 2008.12.24 12:36:00 - [37] Edited by: 4THELULZ on 24/12/2008 12:45:16 Originally by: rofflesausage Originally by: Corstaad You all got trolled. Yes, after rereading it today I suspect you're right. 6/10 for OP. Decent effort. Agreed

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