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Why TP with cruise missiles? (missions)

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Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 05:51:00 - [1] Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 19/12/2008 05:52:11 I've seen it said time and time again: use a TP with cruise missiles. I'm using a CNR w/ t1 cruise missiles. Given the QR changes, I replaced a hardener with a TP and a CCC with a rigor rig. However, testing out some missions I find that: - Yes, I kill frigs faster - There's no real difference on cruisers - I do more damage, but it still takes 2 volleys - No difference at all on BS So, is it really worth it? I mean, it butchers my tank. I don't kill so much faster that my cap is saved. I'm wondering if it was a mistake to replace 1 CCC with a rigor, even. Starting to wonder if I should just train for T2 torps and a Golem. 15 hours from T2 torps, actually, I just can't see putting them on my CNR. ty edit: or am I not seeing good results because I don't have Signature Focusing at 4?
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.19 05:55:00 - [2] Check the EVE Online Missile Guide, it has a calculator which lets you experiment with TP/webifier/skills. If you've got advanced skills such as guided missile precision, a TP might not be helping you as much as you expect.
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 06:01:00 - [3] Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 19/12/2008 06:01:54 Originally by: Mara Rinn Check the EVE Online Missile Guide, it has a calculator which lets you experiment with TP/webifier/skills. If you've got advanced skills such as guided missile precision, a TP might not be helping you as much as you expect. I guess my point is that everyone raves about TPs. With t1 cruise from CNR launchers, I'm just not seeing the hype. My relevant missile skills are: Cruise 5 Guided missile precision 4 Missile Bombardment 4 Operation 5 Projection 4 Rapid launch 4 Target nav prediction 4 Warhead upgrades 4 ...plus the rigor rig.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.19 06:11:00 - [4] Looks fine to me - I'm a Drake pilot and noticed no real change in my performance against NPCs (though I have a sneaking suspicion that frigates were actually dying faster than before). More ranting over here.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2008.12.19 06:16:00 - [5] I'm fairly new to Ravens, so my mission boat isn't fully pimped as I might like just yet. 6x Arbalast Cruise 2x Large Rail, Laser, Arties, whatever 2x Small Pithi B-type Shield Booster 1x Shield Boost Amp II 3x Mission Specific Hardeners 2x BCU II 2x PDU II 1x Damage Control II 1x CCC Now for me, this was nicely cap stable at 50% (Less with lasers, obviously) so throwing on more cap rigs isn't exactly efficient, so no sense in wasting money there. It tanks well enough provided I don't do something royally stupid, but damage against smaller targets was just a bit under-par. Now with a few skills up to 4, and a Rigor and a Flare rig thrown in, smaller targets just aren't having such a good time anymore. It's not spectacular, insta-win, but it's quite noticable. (I'm still tempted to get one of the corpies as a designated painter to see just how much faster a cruiser goes down when painted well) Light Drones (T2 recommended) for the frigs, and Mediums for everything else makes things even more efficient. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 06:29:00 - [6] Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 19/12/2008 06:30:40 Specifically I'm talking about target painters. I've got a decent DPS setup on my CNR - just over 500 DPS. My concern is that the TP doesn't seem to be living up the the hype. I'm trying to determine if I'm missing something, doing it wrong, or if the hype is a bunch of crap. My point is that with my 7x cruise launchers, I'm 2-volleying cruisers with and without the PWNAGE. The frigs that I insta-pop WITH the TP, I insta-pop without the TP. The frigs that are slow are better off with just my ****ty drone skills.
Dengen Krastinov Amarr Vengeance Imperium	Posted - 2008.12.19 07:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Dengen Krastinov on 19/12/2008 07:04:23 To be honest, fit what you see makes a difference. You dont seem to be seeing one with the TP so do youself a favor and stop using one. You've almost answered your own question yourself.
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 07:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Dengen Krastinov Edited by: Dengen Krastinov on 19/12/2008 07:04:23 To be honest, fit what you see makes a difference. You dont seem to be seeing one with the TP so do youself a favor and stop using one. You've almost answered your own question yourself. Fair point -- I just wanted to see if I'm 'doing it wrong' :)
Dengen Krastinov Amarr Vengeance Imperium	Posted - 2008.12.19 07:08:00 - [9] Your not doing anything wrong everyone goes through things like this. all part of the game. Target painter cant hurt (hence nothing wrong) but in this case they arnt doing any good either.
Eka Lawrencia Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.19 07:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Kinsei Isamu So, is it really worth it? I did a couple of missions in a Raven and did not find much difference to before the patch. I often one shot frigs with cruises, albeit with maxed expl. radius and expl. velo skills. I use a painter to help medium drones kill frigs now, not for the cruises. I have no real tank on my Raven because I seldom take any damage. I use the long range of the Raven to my advantage, because I found dampening rats too irritating at close range. Works pretty well.
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Eka Lawrencia Originally by: Kinsei Isamu So, is it really worth it? I did a couple of missions in a Raven and did not find much difference to before the patch. I often one shot frigs with cruises, albeit with maxed expl. radius and expl. velo skills. I use a painter to help medium drones kill frigs now, not for the cruises. I have no real tank on my Raven because I seldom take any damage. I use the long range of the Raven to my advantage, because I found dampening rats too irritating at close range. Works pretty well. Hmm. With 3x hardeners, amp, and t2 x-large booster, I'm kinda getting my but kicked :/ Having to warp out frequently. Only 2x CCC now.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:27:00 - [12] 1 painter + 1 rigor rig might not make a big difference. and no, it really shouldn't make a difference on bs, the difference should be on cruisers/bc. whats his face was saying that with a golem and 2 painters, 2 rigor rigs (or was it flare?) that you could 1 volley bc/cruisers with a golem and cruises. basically if it butchers your tank (I doubt it, are you fitting 4 bcus? if not they you already have too much) and you don't kill any faster, then no **** it isn't worth it.
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 19/12/2008 08:33:28 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton basically if it butchers your tank (I doubt it, are you fitting 4 bcus? if not they you already have too much) and you don't kill any faster, then no **** it isn't worth it. Yeah, pretty much butchering my tank. I'm going to see if I can squeeze back on a hardener. Might have to go with a named hardener or two somewhere though, I screwed up by not testing the rigor... now I'm 9 CPU over with my CNR launchers and other t2 stuff. Oh, I'll just get a CN BCS... way less CPU, and not much more expensive than a zainou gnome kta100.
Mistress Nyissa	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Kinsei Isamu I guess my point is that everyone raves about TPs. With t1 cruise from CNR launchers, I'm just not seeing the hype. My relevant missile skills are: Cruise 5 Guided missile precision 4 Missile Bombardment 4 Operation 5 Projection 4 Rapid launch 4 Target nav prediction 4 Warhead upgrades 4 ...plus the rigor rig. Look into Signature Focusing for improving the effectiveness of the painter and target painting for reducing cap usage (though yes, they use very little cap and the loss of another module is the real loss). I'm sticking with the painter for now, with good missile skills (slightly better than yours, couple of the 4's to 5's and spec 3) and no painter skills (those 2 above) the painter gives me a 30% increase in damage against cruisers, makes me 1 volley destroyers rather than 2 and helps break the tank on rats such as the 2.5m bs in vengeance (though an AB helps more for that). That said my shield skills are 'near' perfect so I'm not worried on the tank (my raven doesn't have any rigs on it so I run fairly low on cap :P).
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:39:00 - [15] You're not going through cruisers any quicker than you were, you're not going through BS any quicker than you were but your tank is now suffering... You've tried to clear a bottleneck which doesn't really exist for you and created a different one. Ditch the TP, improve your tank and let light drones do the work on the frigs. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.19 08:56:00 - [16] Comparison picture Based on the above, I'd say you were right - the painter doesn't help much unless the cruiser is also webbed. -- 249km locking?
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 09:22:00 - [17] Originally by: James Lyrus Comparison picture Based on the above, I'd say you were right - the painter doesn't help much unless the cruiser is also webbed. Ohhh very interesting point. Nice. Alright, that's it. I'm switching one of my BCS II to a CN BCS to get the cpu, and going back to 4 hardeners. Rigor rig should handle most of the issues, that and small drones. Thanks very much guys.
Tamon Ra	Posted - 2008.12.19 09:44:00 - [18] Have to disagree here. Nearly all my missile skills are at 5 including Guided Missile Precision. Signature Focusing, Long Range Jamming and Target Painting are at 4. I use a Cruise Golem with a TP. Against BS's, no difference, aganst Cruisers/BC 1 volley when they are in TP optimal. Frigs at optimal take more damage than if TP was absent, goes progressively less when range is in TP falloff. So, yes I am seeing a difference.
JitaScoutAlt	Posted - 2008.12.19 09:55:00 - [19] Originally by: James Lyrus Comparison picture Based on the above, I'd say you were right - the painter doesn't help much unless the cruiser is also webbed. Doesn't help much o_O That painter give 37.5% more damage, what is much more than one unstacket BCU give (~23%) and about same as second and third BCU give whit stacking (~34%)
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 09:56:00 - [20] Originally by: JitaScoutAlt Originally by: James Lyrus Comparison picture Based on the above, I'd say you were right - the painter doesn't help much unless the cruiser is also webbed. Doesn't help much o_O That painter give 37.5% more damage, what is much more than one unstacket BCU give (~23%) and about same as second and third BCU give whit stacking (~34%) ONLY when webbed. Thing is though, with a 3 hardener tank I'm having to warp out. I might be going faster if I just sit in there with no TP and let my drones do the frigs.
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.19 10:03:00 - [21] Aaaa NOPE. At ANY speed its giving roughly 30% more damage. Check for example: at 300ms 79.35 /59.81 is 1.3 at 600ms 43.05 /32.5 = 1.3
Kinsei Isamu	Posted - 2008.12.19 10:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Seishi Maru Aaaa NOPE. At ANY speed its giving roughly 30% more damage. Check for example: at 300ms 79.35 /59.81 is 1.3 at 600ms 43.05 /32.5 = 1.3 Still dodges the point that this is the difference between killing a cruiser with 2 volleys... or 1.5 volleys. If you're weapon grouping, it doesn't make a difference - it's the same speed of kill. Perhaps when I have "perfect" skills a TP will help a lot more. For now, meh...
steave435 Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.19 10:38:00 - [23] Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Originally by: Seishi Maru Aaaa NOPE. At ANY speed its giving roughly 30% more damage. Check for example: at 300ms 79.35 /59.81 is 1.3 at 600ms 43.05 /32.5 = 1.3 Still dodges the point that this is the difference between killing a cruiser with 2 volleys... or 1.5 volleys. If you're weapon grouping, it doesn't make a difference - it's the same speed of kill. Perhaps when I have "perfect" skills a TP will help a lot more. For now, meh... If you stop grouping, you could move half that second volley to the next target though.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.19 10:45:00 - [24] Originally by: steave435 Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Originally by: Seishi Maru Aaaa NOPE. At ANY speed its giving roughly 30% more damage. Check for example: at 300ms 79.35 /59.81 is 1.3 at 600ms 43.05 /32.5 = 1.3 Still dodges the point that this is the difference between killing a cruiser with 2 volleys... or 1.5 volleys. If you're weapon grouping, it doesn't make a difference - it's the same speed of kill. Perhaps when I have "perfect" skills a TP will help a lot more. For now, meh... If you stop grouping, you could move half that second volley to the next target though. Or do 2 groups.
Seishi Maru Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.19 12:30:00 - [25] Originally by: steave435 Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Originally by: Seishi Maru Aaaa NOPE. At ANY speed its giving roughly 30% more damage. Check for example: at 300ms 79.35 /59.81 is 1.3 at 600ms 43.05 /32.5 = 1.3 Still dodges the point that this is the difference between killing a cruiser with 2 volleys... or 1.5 volleys. If you're weapon grouping, it doesn't make a difference - it's the same speed of kill. Perhaps when I have "perfect" skills a TP will help a lot more. For now, meh... If you stop grouping, you could move half that second volley to the next target though. Exactly. Grouping in PVE, when you know exactly how much you need to kill a target is not smart idea.
Mei Ree	Posted - 2008.12.19 12:31:00 - [26] Heck, even on my Drake with it's pathetic DPS, I'll use four launchers against one frigate, three launchers and 5 light drones against the second. For elite frigs/interceptors I use all 7 + drones. It's just a matter of learning how many missiles you actually need.
Taua Roqa Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.19 12:35:00 - [27] and then getting bored of micromanaging your missiles, grouping them and falling asleep.
322egnaro Caldari Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2008.12.20 00:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Eka Lawrencia I did a couple of missions in a Raven and did not find much difference to before the patch. I often one shot frigs with cruises, albeit with maxed expl. radius and expl. velo skills. I use a painter to help medium drones kill frigs now, not for the cruises. This is why you should use a TP on your Raven. It really makes the world of difference in frig killing, even with average TP skills.
Shandelzare	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Hmm. With 3x hardeners, amp, and t2 x-large booster, I'm kinda getting my but kicked :/ Having to warp out frequently. Only 2x CCC now. with 2x t2 x-large booster, your cap goes dead in seconds, you'd be better off replacing the second booster with 4th rat specific hardener
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Shandelzare Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Hmm. With 3x hardeners, amp, and t2 x-large booster, I'm kinda getting my but kicked :/ Having to warp out frequently. Only 2x CCC now. with 2x t2 x-large booster, your cap goes dead in seconds, you'd be better off replacing the second booster with 4th rat specific hardener Um, read that fit again
Major Deviant	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:42:00 - [31] Originally by: Mara Rinn Check the EVE Online Missile Guide, it has a calculator which lets you experiment with TP/webifier/skills. If you've got advanced skills such as guided missile precision, a TP might not be helping you as much as you expect. Is that guide up to date? I am pretty sure the radious and velocity figures for QR have changed. For example a Cruise missile has unbonused 69 m/sec exp velocity while in this guide it mentions 500 m/sec?????
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Major Deviant Originally by: Mara Rinn Check the EVE Online Missile Guide, it has a calculator which lets you experiment with TP/webifier/skills. If you've got advanced skills such as guided missile precision, a TP might not be helping you as much as you expect. Is that guide up to date? I am pretty sure the radious and velocity figures for QR have changed. For example a Cruise missile has unbonused 69 m/sec exp velocity while in this guide it mentions 500 m/sec????? the guide doesn't use the new formula, nor does it have the right stats. -- 249km locking?
tiller Ministry of Destruction	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:05:00 - [33] Edited by: tiller on 20/12/2008 12:06:53 Edited by: tiller on 20/12/2008 12:05:42 Originally by: Helen Hunts I'm fairly new to Ravens, so my mission boat isn't fully pimped as I might like just yet. 6x Arbalast Cruise 2x Large Rail, Laser, Arties, whatever 2x Small Pithi B-type Shield Booster 1x Shield Boost Amp II 3x Mission Specific Hardeners 2x BCU II 2x PDU II 1x Damage Control II 1x CCC Now for me, this was nicely cap stable at 50% (Less with lasers, obviously) so throwing on more cap rigs isn't exactly efficient, so no sense in wasting money there. It tanks well enough provided I don't do something royally stupid, but damage against smaller targets was just a bit under-par. Now with a few skills up to 4, and a Rigor and a Flare rig thrown in, smaller targets just aren't having such a good time anymore. It's not spectacular, insta-win, but it's quite noticable. (I'm still tempted to get one of the corpies as a designated painter to see just how much faster a cruiser goes down when painted well) Light Drones (T2 recommended) for the frigs, and Mediums for everything else makes things even more efficient. just dont fit 2 * small shield boosters on a raven... it's crazy, what a waste of slots and gimps your setup. if you do aggro a entire level your gonna fry.. use BS class modules, officer if you can afford it and you can perma tank any level, all aggro'd and surf web at same time it's so easy. yes you can get a stable cap, but talk about lazy, why be stable and weak ?, you can turn the boosters on and off you know lol
Stefan F Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:15:00 - [34] Edited by: Stefan F on 20/12/2008 12:15:17 I'm using a single small shield booster on my 0.0 ratting golem. Got plenty tank to tank the spawns and have the med slots left to even fit 2x target painter. Also it is cap stable without any cap mods so I can use all lows for dps and the rigs for torp range. So bigger is not always better, as long as you're not gonna pvp in it. Even then because of the low PG/cpu use of the booster you can fit a heavy neut easy, too bad for that interceptor scout that (maybe) got you tackled in a belt, as is cap is gone and my drones eat him alive.

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