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Level 4s, raven or maelstrom?

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Xawiahn Kabej Cobalt Academy Cobalt Holdings Coalition 0	Posted - 2012.04.12 20:27:00 - [1] - Quote I know this has been asked a lot of times before, but after using a maelstrom, with my 12mil SP, to do some level 4 missions (a modified version of this since I don't have the cash for the republic gyros) I feel that the tank isn't nearly strong enough to withstand the damage thrown at it, not even whilst boosting. Once I lost my maelstrom because my drones couldn't kill the warp scramblers faster than my tank was dropping. Because of this I have been reluctant to do any missions alone lately, in fear of losing another ship. After looking around the net for a bit it I got the impression that the raven was a "much" better ship than maelstrom and started to train towards it. As off late I've looked around a bit more and it seems like the raven isn't much better than the maelstrom and when comparing my maelstrom fit with a raven fit in EFT, it looks like the tank for the raven is even worse than my maelstrom. My question is, should I continue to train for a raven in hope that level 4s won't be as hard, or should I continue with my maelstrom? I don't mind spending more time on a mission as long as I can decrease the risk of losing my ship.
mxzf Shovel Bros 1196	Posted - 2012.04.12 20:34:00 - [2] - Quote How are your support skills? I have a feeling they might be a bit weak and that might be your issue. The Mael and Raven both rely on killing the rats before they're too much for your tank, burst tanking. Related to that, train up T2 scout drones, they're a must for flying a BS effectively and they will eat up scramming drones with no issues at all.
Exploited Engineer Creatively Applied Violence Inc. 29	Posted - 2012.04.12 20:57:00 - [3] - Quote Xawiahn Kabej wrote: I know this has been asked a lot of times before, but after using a maelstrom, with my 12mil SP, to do some level 4 missions (a modified version of this since I don't have the cash for the republic gyros) I feel that the tank isn't nearly strong enough to withstand the damage thrown at it, not even whilst boosting. Of course it's not. It has two invulns that incur stacking penalties instead of two rat-specific hardeners, and no shield boost amplifier. And if you think this thing has a weak tank, I have some bad news for you: The Ravens tank is even worse. And you'll need to train missile skills, especially cruise missiles, which have few other applications, whereas you can use projectile weapons for basically any task, tl;dr: Throw out all hardeners in the fit, replace with rat-specific hardeners, fit a shield boost amplifier.
Xawiahn Kabej Cobalt Academy Cobalt Holdings Coalition 0	Posted - 2012.04.12 21:08:00 - [4] - Quote mxzf wrote: How are your support skills? I have a feeling they might be a bit weak and that might be your issue. The Mael and Raven both rely on killing the rats before they're too much for your tank, burst tanking. Related to that, train up T2 scout drones, they're a must for flying a BS effectively and they will eat up scramming drones with no issues at all. And, to kinda answer your question, I personally prefer the Mael, but either one can work well if used with the right support skills. Using T2 Hobgoblins with Drone Interfacing 4. Still my tank dropped way faster than my drones could kill the scramblers. Exploited Engineer wrote: Of course it's not. It has two invulns that incur stacking penalties instead of two rat-specific hardeners, and no shield boost amplifier. And if you think this thing has a weak tank, I have some bad news for you: The Ravens tank is even worse. And you'll need to train missile skills, especially cruise missiles, which have few other applications, whereas you can use projectile weapons for basically any task, tl;dr: Throw out all hardeners in the fit, replace with rat-specific hardeners, fit a shield boost amplifier. Using two rat-specific hardeners on my ship and only one adaptive. Should I use three rat specific hardeners instead? I am lacking the CPU to be able to fit a shield boost amplifier without having to make a big change to the fit. How would you fit your maelstorm?
KardelSharpeye The Watchtower 0	Posted - 2012.04.12 21:57:00 - [5] - Quote That fit is great except for a couple of things, always carry light drones in a battleship. I've run a variation of that fit (AB instad of one hardener) and it works great, you probably messed up on the triggers. If you're not confident in your tank lock up the scraming frigates (look them up on eve survival) and pop them while they're aproaching most of the time their transversal should be near 0 so you'll be doing full damage. For a lot of missions 3 mission specific hardeners is the best but there are plenty where you need 2x specific and an invuln. You should also train thermodynamics so you can overheat, it comes in handy and shield boosters can overheat for a while. I'm also curios, what mission was it that you couldn't kill the frigates fast enough? Oh and if you're missioning in amarr space you might have an easier time in an armor tanked ship.
Hans Momaki State War Academy Caldari State 12	Posted - 2012.04.12 22:06:00 - [6] - Quote If you want a raven, use this fit: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/27770-Perfect-Starter-Lv4-Mission-raven.html Follow the advices given in that thread + follow EvE-Survival = win I strongly recommend to get a CNR fast, and a Low cap/medium boost ammount - Shield booster (Gist C-Type XL ftw!) On top, train support skills asap. Especially sig/explo-radius - skills are needed to get the dmg to fit rigors to get even more dmg!
KardelSharpeye The Watchtower 0	Posted - 2012.04.12 22:30:00 - [7] - Quote Hans Momaki wrote: If you want a raven, use this fit: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/27770-Perfect-Starter-Lv4-Mission-raven.html Follow the advices given in that thread + follow EvE-Survival = win I strongly recommend to get a CNR fast, and a Low cap/medium boost ammount - Shield booster (Gist C-Type XL ftw!) On top, train support skills asap. Especially sig/explo-radius - skills are needed to get the dmg to fit rigors to get even more dmg! Trying to permarun an X-L booster is stupid and so is that raven fit, that being said investing in cruise missiles is dumb IMO, the only place where you're going to use them is the raven and the CNR, both of which are platforms that aren't good enough to warrant losing time on cruise missiles just for them. Training projectiles will allow him to fly a machariel which is much better for missions than a CNR, it also has the side benefit of unlocking all T2 weapons up to battleship which allows you to fly a ton of other ships well.
Kalli Brixzat 5	Posted - 2012.04.12 22:41:00 - [8] - Quote KardelSharpeye wrote: Hans Momaki wrote: If you want a raven, use this fit: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/27770-Perfect-Starter-Lv4-Mission-raven.html Follow the advices given in that thread + follow EvE-Survival = win I strongly recommend to get a CNR fast, and a Low cap/medium boost ammount - Shield booster (Gist C-Type XL ftw!) On top, train support skills asap. Especially sig/explo-radius - skills are needed to get the dmg to fit rigors to get even more dmg! Trying to permarun an X-L booster is stupid and so is that raven fit, that being said investing in cruise missiles is dumb IMO, the only place where you're going to use them is the raven and the CNR, both of which are platforms that aren't good enough to warrant losing time on cruise missiles just for them. Training projectiles will allow him to fly a machariel which is much better for missions than a CNR, it also has the side benefit of unlocking all T2 weapons up to battleship which allows you to fly a ton of other ships well. I'm not sure I could disagree any more than I do. Disclaimer: The Mach is a heck of a bird, so I will not argue on that point. As for the rest, let's get cracking: Cruise missiles are an EXCELLENT choice for both missions and complex running. In other words, high end PvE. They are also effective in large fleet battles with large ships. The best thing is that you do not need to train "up" to them because missile training doesn't work that way. As for the Raven/CNR point - they are excellent PvE platforms. Just as missiles are, in general, excellent PvE weapons. Been a while since I flew an arty BS, but I believe cruise missiles (+good skills) will allow you to out-range nearly all rat-damage...while arty will not.
KardelSharpeye The Watchtower 1	Posted - 2012.04.12 22:46:00 - [9] - Quote Kalli Brixzat wrote: KardelSharpeye wrote: Hans Momaki wrote: If you want a raven, use this fit: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/27770-Perfect-Starter-Lv4-Mission-raven.html Follow the advices given in that thread + follow EvE-Survival = win I strongly recommend to get a CNR fast, and a Low cap/medium boost ammount - Shield booster (Gist C-Type XL ftw!) On top, train support skills asap. Especially sig/explo-radius - skills are needed to get the dmg to fit rigors to get even more dmg! Trying to permarun an X-L booster is stupid and so is that raven fit, that being said investing in cruise missiles is dumb IMO, the only place where you're going to use them is the raven and the CNR, both of which are platforms that aren't good enough to warrant losing time on cruise missiles just for them. Training projectiles will allow him to fly a machariel which is much better for missions than a CNR, it also has the side benefit of unlocking all T2 weapons up to battleship which allows you to fly a ton of other ships well. I'm not sure I could disagree any more than I do. Disclaimer: The Mach is a heck of a bird, so I will not argue on that point. As for the rest, let's get cracking: Cruise missiles are an EXCELLENT choice for both missions and complex running. In other words, high end PvE. They are also effective in large fleet battles with large ships. The best thing is that you do not need to train "up" to them because missile training doesn't work that way. As for the Raven/CNR point - they are excellent PvE platforms. Just as missiles are, in general, excellent PvE weapons. Been a while since I flew an arty BS, but I believe cruise missiles (+good skills) will allow you to out-range nearly all rat-damage...while arty will not. I'd like a raven/CNR fit (since they're the only ones who use cruise missiles) that outperforms a gunship.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 414	Posted - 2012.04.12 22:51:00 - [10] - Quote Kalli Brixzat wrote: As for the Raven/CNR point - they are excellent PvE platforms. Just as missiles are, in general, excellent PvE weapons. Been a while since I flew an arty BS, but I believe cruise missiles (+good skills) will allow you to out-range nearly all rat-damage...while arty will not. No, they aren't. Raven and CNR are adequate and cruise missiles are honestly some of the worst weapons in the game right now. They do lackluster base damage and have damage application problems. If you're that dead set on range tanking, you might as well just get a Naga. About they only thing they're really good at is negating NPC tracking disruptors. Put as much time/skilling in to cruises as any other weapon system and the alternative will pretty much always come out ahead. Having said that, the Raven can do L4s. It isn't fast and it isn't painless, but it will work. The linked fit is **** and from what I recall even Mike has backed off on that one. If you go with a Raven, go cap injection with 3 rigors and 4 BCUs. It's about as tolerable as a Raven is going to get. I'd personally take a Mael any day if those are the options. You will run in to range management issues if you're not careful, and I'd strongly suggest keeping both AC and arti fits available to change out on a mission-dependent basis.
Kalli Brixzat 5	Posted - 2012.04.12 22:57:00 - [11] - Quote KardelSharpeye wrote: I'd like a raven/CNR fit (since they're the only ones who use cruise missiles) that outperforms a gunship. Never said it outperforms. In most cases, it will not. My point was to state that the raven/CNR are good birds if fitted and flown correctly. I've been in plenty of sticky situations in both gun and missile boats. Each have their issues, each their strengths. For my style, I prefer extreme range combat and the ability to lay hurt without receiving any. I can do that on a regular basis in my CNR, not so in pretty much any gun bot I've ever flown.
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 104	Posted - 2012.04.12 23:07:00 - [12] - Quote I flew a Mael similar to that and did fine. You are using 800s in the cap booster? Of course rat specific hardeners as mentioned.
Xawiahn Kabej Cobalt Academy Cobalt Holdings Coalition 0	Posted - 2012.04.12 23:36:00 - [13] - Quote Using 800 cap boosters and specific hardeners. Can't remember the name of the mission where I lost my ship (Would be good if I did so I could avoid it in the future). Guess I should just try using my maelstrom again and hopefully make enough cash to get a mach or something similar in the future.
drdxie Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 73	Posted - 2012.04.12 23:48:00 - [14] - Quote My 2 isk.. A raven is easier to use and is quicker to get in to and use effectively. Using guns requires a LOT of support skills to be effective. As to which is ultimately better, will depend on you play style. If you going mach, you going to do a lot of piloting.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 39	Posted - 2012.04.12 23:57:00 - [15] - Quote with the information you provided, i cannot explain how you could possibly have tank issues. your tank should be in the 700s and last as long as you have cap booster charges left. you must be doing something wrong, either shooting triggers too soon or shooting the wrong ammo or something. how are your gunnery skills and which faction do you fly against?
Klymer Hedion University Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2012.04.13 01:57:00 - [16] - Quote OP could you please post your character on http://eveboard.com/ so we could have a look at your skills? Saying you have 12m SP tells us nothing honestly as you could have a lot invested in industry. We could then give more specific advice on how to help you since we're all really just guessing as it is. I fly all the ships in question and I'd rather see your char before making any specific suggestions.
Xawiahn Kabej Cobalt Academy Cobalt Holdings Coalition 0	Posted - 2012.04.13 02:49:00 - [17] - Quote Klymer wrote: OP could you please post your character on http://eveboard.com/ so we could have a look at your skills? Saying you have 12m SP tells us nothing honestly as you could have a lot invested in industry. We could then give more specific advice on how to help you since we're all really just guessing as it is. I fly all the ships in question and I'd rather see your char before making any specific suggestions. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Xawiahn_Kabej there you go. Hope that helps in some way.
Norisha North Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.04.13 05:22:00 - [18] - Quote IMHO this Mael fitting misses a shield boost amplifier, because of the Meal bonus. I fly mine with cap rigs, 2 Rat specific hardeners, 1 invul and AB. No problem to tank all missions if you are not to stupid with the triggers. And my shield skills are not maxed out.
Gorki Andropov Kerensky Initiatives 297	Posted - 2012.04.13 09:13:00 - [19] - Quote My Raven was equipped with the following: HIGH 06 x Cruise Missile Launcher I 01 x SMALL TRACTOR BEAM 1 01 x SALVAGER I MEDIUM 04 x LARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS 01 x 'HYPHNOS' ECM 01 x MEDIUM SHIELD BOOSTER LOW 01 x EMERGENCY DAMAGE CONTROL 01 x ARMOR KINETIC HARDENER I 01 x ARMOR THREMIC HARDENER I 02 x WARP CORE STABILIZER I DRONES 02 x WARRIOR I DRONES 03 x HAMMERHEAD I DRONES UPGRADES 01 x ROCKET FUEL CACHE PARTINTION I 01 x BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I
Babar Baboli Northen Star inc Stardust Underground 1	Posted - 2012.04.13 09:26:00 - [20] - Quote I flyt an arty Maelstrom f+¦r L4s and I only have around 9m SP and it works just fine. Rarely have to warp out of missions (the blockade and worlds collide are the only tricky ones) T2 drones is a _must_ though [Maelstrom, Arty Mael] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Domination 100MN Afterburner 'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration X-Large Shield Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Hobgoblin II x10 Hammerhead II x5 I use the domination AB since it use less cap and brings a bit more speed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 148	Posted - 2012.04.13 09:39:00 - [21] - Quote Gorki Andropov wrote: My Raven was equipped with the following: HIGH 06 x Cruise Missile Launcher I 01 x SMALL TRACTOR BEAM 1 01 x SALVAGER I MEDIUM 04 x LARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS 01 x 'HYPHNOS' ECM 01 x MEDIUM SHIELD BOOSTER LOW 01 x EMERGENCY DAMAGE CONTROL 01 x ARMOR KINETIC HARDENER I 01 x ARMOR THREMIC HARDENER I 02 x WARP CORE STABILIZER I DRONES 02 x WARRIOR I DRONES 03 x HAMMERHEAD I DRONES UPGRADES 01 x ROCKET FUEL CACHE PARTINTION I 01 x BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I +1 internets for you. I just looked up that old post and nearly fell down laughing so hard. I dunno, I just find that thread insanely amusing.
KardelSharpeye The Watchtower 1	Posted - 2012.04.13 09:55:00 - [22] - Quote You should be fitting hardeners so you can maximize the effect of mael's bonus not fit more SBA's.
Tenris Anis Schattenengel Clan 40	Posted - 2012.04.13 12:37:00 - [23] - Quote Xawiahn Kabej wrote: Using two rat-specific hardeners on my ship and only one adaptive. Should I use three rat specific hardeners instead? I am lacking the CPU to be able to fit a shield boost amplifier without having to make a big change to the fit. How would you fit your maelstorm? http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=TankingGuide
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 41	Posted - 2012.04.13 13:26:00 - [24] - Quote Xawiahn Kabej wrote: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Xawiahn_Kabej there you go. Hope that helps in some way. after seeing your skillset i can understand even less how you could possibly have problems tanking. my only wild guess is that you fly against gurista and sit still while they are lobbing missiles at you. but even then you would have to shoot a few triggers to get in trouble.
Celeritas 5k Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus 29	Posted - 2012.04.13 13:36:00 - [25] - Quote I've never flown a mael so I can't give any advice on fitting it, but as far as the scram frigs-- In many level 4's they start out far away and burn in close; if you split your guns in 2 groups and work quickly, you can blap 2 frigs per volley while their transversal is almost zero.
Dato Koppla Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.04.13 16:01:00 - [26] - Quote As someone who trained T2 Cruise Missiles and used Ravens/CNRs extensively, with good skills they are pretty awesome at PvE simply because many rats spawn at pretty extreme ranges, a high end CNR with implants will project 800+ dps with its missiles to 122 km lock range, 100% damage to BCs and BSs (you can tell by the consistency of volley damage) and around 90% to cruisers if your tp cycles lucky, no gun BS will ever have that kind of damage projection at that range. Also, 100% damage selection is HUGE in PvE cause you always know whats best, anyone who has used lasers on Angels will know. However, 2 important things I think makes gun (specifically projectile) boats good, 1 popping frigs at range w/ low transversal, pretty big because when spawns are far away, I often kill everything but the frigs, and then I have to wait for them to come into drone range and let my drones kill them one by one, which takes time (also frigs web making gate crawls even more painful). Secondly, gate crawling, its a huge part of L4s and some lucrative missions involves gate crawls, which is why the Mach is so awesome, it has cruiser speed, less so for the Mael, but I've flown the tempest in missions and its pretty decent if theres a long gate crawl.
Xawiahn Kabej Cobalt Academy Cobalt Holdings Coalition 0	Posted - 2012.04.13 17:27:00 - [27] - Quote Babar Baboli wrote: I flyt an arty Maelstrom f+¦r L4s and I only have around 9m SP and it works just fine. Rarely have to warp out of missions (the blockade and worlds collide are the only tricky ones) T2 drones is a _must_ though [Maelstrom, Arty Mael] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Domination 100MN Afterburner 'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration X-Large Shield Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Hobgoblin II x10 Hammerhead II x5 I use the domination AB since it use less cap and brings a bit more speed. Might try this fit, seems to have a bit better tank. What CPU implant do you have? Even with "All level V" in EFT it's 12 to much. Daniel Plain wrote: Xawiahn Kabej wrote: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Xawiahn_Kabej there you go. Hope that helps in some way. after seeing your skillset i can understand even less how you could possibly have problems tanking. my only wild guess is that you fly against gurista and sit still while they are lobbing missiles at you. but even then you would have to shoot a few triggers to get in trouble. I probably did by mistake. I can't really remember much more than me getting my ass handed to me.
Iteken Hotori The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide. 0	Posted - 2012.04.18 14:31:00 - [28] - Quote Babar Baboli wrote: I flyt an arty Maelstrom f+¦r L4s and I only have around 9m SP and it works just fine. Rarely have to warp out of missions (the blockade and worlds collide are the only tricky ones) T2 drones is a _must_ though [Maelstrom, Arty Mael] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Domination 100MN Afterburner 'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration X-Large Shield Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Hobgoblin II x10 Hammerhead II x5 I use the domination AB since it use less cap and brings a bit more speed. From plenty of experience i'd recommend the following: 1. Drop the Arties and replace them with 800mm Autocannons. Artillery is terrible for PvE. 2. drop the invulns and use 3mission specific hardeners. 1x active primary damage type, 1 passive primary damage type and 1 secondary 3. Drop the AB and fit a Large Cap injector with 800's. carry 5k rounds in your hold, and fill the rest with boosters. 4. rally, really don't use artillery. it's absolutely awful for everything at the moment. with average skills and 2x TE your AC's will hit out to 60km, doing much better DPS. You should still alpha frigates., 5. skill up for / save to a vargur gl.
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2012.04.18 15:37:00 - [29] - Quote Mael was made for ACs.
Gorenaire Theosophical Society 4	Posted - 2012.04.18 17:52:00 - [30] - Quote Go for the Maelstrom, its a much better choice than the Raven in the long run, instant dmg,, very good shield boosting, decent drones bay . To use it decently, you will need matari BS at 4support gunnery skills at 4, large projectiles at 4,shield and energy skills at 4, and T2 light mediums drones. Once you re there, train shield ops , energy ops,shield and energy management to 5, then go for rapid fire and motion prediction to 5 then T2 large AC. Once you re there, you can push to the Vargur, which is an awsome ship or the Machariel, which rocks as well.

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