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Myrfrost
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:02:00 -
[1]
Would there be a reason other than astetics to pick on Carrier over another? What are the differences between them? T
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:17:00 -
[2]
Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM... -----------
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Mouji AlMefel
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:29:00 -
[3]
How usefull overall are Carriers? I've assumed the are desirable but really I don't have enough experience to really know for sure.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:33:00 -
[4]
amarr is good for fleets as it can tank well and armour tanks which what most ppl tank so good for rr.
caldari also good at tanking, been told that caldari is better at solo tanking than amarr not sure which is better myself.
gallente best damage but it doesn't have that damage bonus when assigning off fighters. it's armour/shield rep range bonus, large drone bay, and dmg bonus make it useful in some circumstainces.
minmatar best for repping poses or station services. It's weak tank makes it primary in fleet battles a group of nalfgar might work but weaker tank would kind of counter the bonus damage it's doing.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM...
I like how the descs for the minnie ones talk about no-compromise destruction machines, and then they give them remote repairing bonuses
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:36:00 -
[6]
It depends on what you want to use them for.
For logistics, they're priceless. You can haul rigged ship (the only way to do it) from point to point almost instantly. If you've got a carrier and a friendly POS/station, Jita might as well be next door.
For gang combat, they're very effective. They're very, very powerful and versatile ships, but they have a huge price tag. With proper support and the right tactics, they can be absolutely devastating. On the other hand, if you don't have the proper skills/tactics/support, you'd better have a healthy wallet to take the losses, as your little gang is going to be a very appealing target for everyone in the area.
For solo/small gang combat, they're an expensive toy. While you can use them in some scenarios, odds are, without proper support, you're going to lose them a lot more often than most people can afford. A carrier is fairly vulnerable to being locked down by a much smaller force, and then it's just a matter of time before they can gather reinforcements to take you down. -----------
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:04:00 -
[7]
nidhoggurt for the win, it has roof.
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Venomae
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM...
Chimera is the best... LMFAO! Shield tanked capital ship - FAIL!
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Venomae
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM...
Chimera is the best... LMFAO! Shield tanked capital ship - FAIL!
Indeed. What about the incresed signature radius from the rigs!? Oh...
Really though, it's rare but I'd sign her statement this time. Maybe not regarding the matari carriers who really does have a use for it's bonus. It's still worse off than the amarr and caldari ones, but about on par with Gallente.
If you don't agree you might want to state why you think so, rather than just parrot what the guy above you said last night? Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 726583
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Venomae
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM...
Chimera is the best... LMFAO! Shield tanked capital ship - FAIL!
Shield tanking is superior to armor tanking. The only possible reason armor tanking capitals could be "better" is if you have a fleet with a lot of pilots who haven't trained their shield tank skills yet. -----------
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Venomae
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM...
Chimera is the best... LMFAO! Shield tanked capital ship - FAIL!
Shield tanking is superior to armor tanking. The only possible reason armor tanking capitals could be "better" is if you have a fleet with a lot of pilots who haven't trained their shield tank skills yet.
Hi, you're funny.
Shield tanking in limited situations can be better than armor tanking. Shield tanking however just annihilates your capacitor. SPRs hurt your cap recharge, shield boosters run at 2x the rate (and use 1/2 the cap as reps each boost, but that comes out to 100% still) and they are tanked poorly against thermal damage, which is the most typical damage in the game. (Lazors, Gallente, etc).
When you get down to it a solid shield omnitank can hold its own. However, a strong armor tank has a very nice and solid resistance base that can generally hold on a bit longer by TANK than a shield tank. The only thing shields have going for them is a passive regeneration that adds a few extra DPS tank.
On capitals a shield tank can be impressive. But the Chimera is far from the best ship. I mean, if you use shield tanking ships it's a Godsend to have in a fleet. But if you use armor tanking ships, typically the Chimera is like "grr, where's the Thanatos".
In my opinion the Thanatos is far superior to the Chimera. Higher active drone count, solid armor logistical capability, more HP and waaaaaaaay higher grid.
But this thread could turn into a shield vs armor thread and those always end ugly.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Venomae
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Amarr and Caldari are awesome (Chimera is best, IMO, but by a small margin), Gallente is poor, Minmatar is laughably bad. Kind of like overall ship balance ATM...
Chimera is the best... LMFAO! Shield tanked capital ship - FAIL!
Shield tanking is superior to armor tanking. The only possible reason armor tanking capitals could be "better" is if you have a fleet with a lot of pilots who haven't trained their shield tank skills yet.
Saddly, thats usually the case.
Carriers are broken into two basic groups, the universal and particular.
The Gallente and Minmatar are universal carriers - they have both the remote armor and remote shield rep and as such are really the most versitile. So, you are useful in fleet RR where armor tanking is a lot more common (3/4 carriers armor tank) and you can also lend a helping hand in repping POS shield and Chimera/Pheonix.
The Amarr and Caldari are the particular carriers - they have the remote repping range of their tanking specialty (Amarr - armor, Caldari - shield) while also getting the +5% per level unstacking peanalized resist bonus per level (thats 25% at carrier 5).
The Chimera, when fitted correctly, has the best tank followed by the Archon (its very close) then the Thanatos and finally the Niddhogger. People will tell you that the Archon is the 'best' carrier because how common RR armor reppers are in fleet and for the most part, this is true. However, if you want to be able to 'do it all' in a carrier, the Thanatos is really the best option because of its RR shield and armor bonus. The problem with the Niddhogger and Thanatos is that their bonus' are just nowhere near as good as the Archon and Chimera. The Nidd's +5% RR amount per level for example takes your 1500 shield or armor to 1850 at level 5 - which is just too little considering the sacrifice you are making to your tank in comparrison. While the Archon is getting hit for a flat out 25% less damage at carrier 5 - and thats before all the extra lows add even more to the already tough tank. Ultimatly, train whatever carrier you have battleship 5 in, but if you want to Min/Max - go for the Archon or the Thanatos imo.
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ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Hi, you're funny.
Shield tanking in limited situations can be better than armor tanking. Shield tanking however just annihilates your capacitor. SPRs hurt your cap recharge, shield boosters run at 2x the rate (and use 1/2 the cap as reps each boost, but that comes out to 100% still) and they are tanked poorly against thermal damage, which is the most typical damage in the game. (Lazors, Gallente, etc).
When you get down to it a solid shield omnitank can hold its own. However, a strong armor tank has a very nice and solid resistance base that can generally hold on a bit longer by TANK than a shield tank. The only thing shields have going for them is a passive regeneration that adds a few extra DPS tank.
On capitals a shield tank can be impressive. But the Chimera is far from the best ship. I mean, if you use shield tanking ships it's a Godsend to have in a fleet. But if you use armor tanking ships, typically the Chimera is like "grr, where's the Thanatos".
In my opinion the Thanatos is far superior to the Chimera. Higher active drone count, solid armor logistical capability, more HP and waaaaaaaay higher grid.
But this thread could turn into a shield vs armor thread and those always end ugly.
Not sure if this is a troll, but.. I'll bite.
They all have identical active drone count. Identical. The Thanatos gets a larger drone bay, and thus more inactive drones, which... honestly could matter more.
Yes, logisticaly the Chimera isn't the best ship around, thanks to our armor tanked culture. However, if logistics was the best point, why are you not advocating the Nidhoggur, clearly superior to the others? Chimera also lowers the need for logistics from all other shiptypes, by having a decent tank of it's own.
Most logistics from a carrier tends to be either in small gangs and then planned - they can very well be using a shield tank instead of armor. Or larger gangs where they rep eachother - carrier <-> carrier, meaning the chimera is once again great. At the occasions where you will rep up armor tanked ships in larger fights, you have something of a 10 second response time counting targeting and repaircycle, shield transfers remove the cycletime and grants your gangmate a few more seconds to gtfo.
When you're not fitting the same modules, who cares about fittings? Yes, the chimera is tight on CPU, the thanatos is not tight in any way. As long as you can get the fitting on, who cares?
SPR's? On a Carrier? Really?
Caps using shields get invulns which at this point are nothing but EANM's with better resists. This on top of SBA's. In general they have better resists all round. The regeneration is neglectable in all ways really. It's their massively better tanks that matters. Obviously a silly example, but what can the Wyvern tank? 300k? 400k dps?
You are right however, that they don't get the buffer of other carriers. Then again, the situations where that kind of buffer really matters, he wouldn't need the forums here to ask for guidance anyway. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 283085
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:03:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 21/12/2008 11:04:07 Armor tanking is broken: slow, un-agile, end-of-cycle rep, worse resists, local repping is crap compared to a dumb plate that makes you move like a slug... just rubbish ****.
If you can go for shields, go for shields. Avoid armor.
Yeah, I fly Caldari. There's a reason for it.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 21/12/2008 11:04:07 Armor tanking is broken: slow, un-agile, end-of-cycle rep, worse resists, local repping is crap compared to a dumb plate that makes you move like a slug... just rubbish ****.
If you can go for shields, go for shields. Avoid armor.
Yeah, I fly Caldari. There's a reason for it.
That's as untrue as the things Shegari said, armortanks have their use, mainly in their larger buffers that matters mostly on smaller ships, their lower signatures - which matters at times, their increased mass(which obviously matter less post-qr), their passive membranes.
It's just that those things doesn't really apply to carriers to the same degree. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 952617
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Leandro Salazar
Better Dead Then Smeg
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mouji AlMefel How usefull overall are Carriers? I've assumed the are desirable but really I don't have enough experience to really know for sure.
If you live in 0.0, carriers are priceless for logistics. I wouldn't ever go to 0.0 without one anymore. And I guess for that role it is either Thanatos or Archon, due to the amount of lows for cargo expanders. Can't comment on combat as I exclusively use my carrier for logistics. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Veeber
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:40:00 -
[17]
Go with the Archon for sex appeal alone...
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:50:00 -
[18]
Wonder what some people are drinking here..
armor tanker inferior? Lol Talking about plates on a CARRIER thread? LOL
Considering local repair as the main defense on a carrier? LOOOL
Self repair won 't protect you against anything bigger than a pink butterfly. Not even dreads car much for self repair anymore!THey only think on surviving long enough to get out of siege and be remote repaired by carriers. Self repair is a SECONDARY defense.
Archon >>>> others.. by FAR. Chimera is the worse in fleets because not many people can repair you.
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Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:52:00 -
[19]
The local tank on carriers doesnŠt really matter. If primaried in a fleet fight, you die. Its that simple.
Im flying the Thanatos, and the versatility for both remote armor and shield rep is very good.
Train what you want to fly. A mixed fleet of carriers is better than a fleet consisting of only one type of carriers.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 12:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Seishomaru
Archon >>>> others.. by FAR. Chimera is the worse in fleets because not many people can repair you.
The ignorance here shines so bright you could solar-power greater London with it.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
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Fearless Angel
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Posted - 2008.12.21 12:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 21/12/2008 11:04:07 Armor tanking is broken: slow, un-agile, end-of-cycle rep, worse resists, local repping is crap compared to a dumb plate that makes you move like a slug... just rubbish ****.
If you can go for shields, go for shields. Avoid armor.
Yeah, I fly Caldari. There's a reason for it.
Shield tanking, poor base EM and THERMAL resist. Fail!
Most of the damage wich you will receive in these days EVE is EM and THERMAL. Armor tanking has much higher resist against those two widest used damage types.
Shield tanking also don't allow you to use ECCM, sensor boosters or anything really handy modules in capital ships.
And if you have Chimera or Wyvern and you aren't using ALL your mid slots for tank you are just EPIC FAIL...
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 12:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fearless Angel
Shield tanking, poor base EM and THERMAL resist. Fail!
Most of the damage wich you will receive in these days EVE is EM and THERMAL. Armor tanking has much higher resist against those two widest used damage types.
Shield tanking also don't allow you to use ECCM, sensor boosters or anything really handy modules in capital ships.
And if you have Chimera or Wyvern and you aren't using ALL your mid slots for tank you are just EPIC FAIL...
*******s. With 2 (faction) invul fields a caldari carrier can have very decent resists across the boad due to the skill bonuses. EM and THE are used quite often but so is kinetic, (moros!) and with the changes to citadel torpedoes this one has become especially dangerous, and while dreads hardly do any explosive damage, sub-capital fleets surely do.
The chimera can field a decent local tank with enormous amounts of cap for remote repping, while sporting both an eccm and a sensorbooster. Had you done any research, you would find that it's mostly the armourtanking ships that suffer from cap problems while trying to fit those two mods.
Lastly, local tank isn't everything, and eccm/sensorbooster/scram can be invaluable.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Fearless Angel
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Posted - 2008.12.21 12:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Fearless Angel
Shield tanking, poor base EM and THERMAL resist. Fail!
Most of the damage wich you will receive in these days EVE is EM and THERMAL. Armor tanking has much higher resist against those two widest used damage types.
Shield tanking also don't allow you to use ECCM, sensor boosters or anything really handy modules in capital ships.
And if you have Chimera or Wyvern and you aren't using ALL your mid slots for tank you are just EPIC FAIL...
*******s. With 2 (faction) invul fields a caldari carrier can have very decent resists across the boad due to the skill bonuses. EM and THE are used quite often but so is kinetic, (moros!) and with the changes to citadel torpedoes this one has become especially dangerous, and while dreads hardly do any explosive damage, sub-capital fleets surely do.
The chimera can field a decent local tank with enormous amounts of cap for remote repping, while sporting both an eccm and a sensorbooster. Had you done any research, you would find that it's mostly the armourtanking ships that suffer from cap problems while trying to fit those two mods.
Lastly, local tank isn't everything, and eccm/sensorbooster/scram can be invaluable.
Have you ever even fitted one?
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Superfailsauce
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.12.21 12:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Fearless Angel
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Fearless Angel
Shield tanking, poor base EM and THERMAL resist. Fail!
Most of the damage wich you will receive in these days EVE is EM and THERMAL. Armor tanking has much higher resist against those two widest used damage types.
Shield tanking also don't allow you to use ECCM, sensor boosters or anything really handy modules in capital ships.
And if you have Chimera or Wyvern and you aren't using ALL your mid slots for tank you are just EPIC FAIL...
*******s. With 2 (faction) invul fields a caldari carrier can have very decent resists across the boad due to the skill bonuses. EM and THE are used quite often but so is kinetic, (moros!) and with the changes to citadel torpedoes this one has become especially dangerous, and while dreads hardly do any explosive damage, sub-capital fleets surely do.
The chimera can field a decent local tank with enormous amounts of cap for remote repping, while sporting both an eccm and a sensorbooster. Had you done any research, you would find that it's mostly the armourtanking ships that suffer from cap problems while trying to fit those two mods.
Lastly, local tank isn't everything, and eccm/sensorbooster/scram can be invaluable.
Have you ever even fitted one?
Oh boy ------- Larkonis' Alt, main got banned. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 13:13:00 -
[25]
Poor troll or oblivious idiot? The audience decides!
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 13:34:00 -
[26]
In the broader scheme of things the Thanatos is "the best" because: -It armortanks so fitting a sensorbooster and a medslot ECCM doesn't gimp your tank much -It can remote repair both shield and armor (most important) The 5% dmg bonus is ofc negligible but it's there... if it had a resistance bonus it would have been hands down the best. Boink! |
arbalesttom
Rulers Of Mankind
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Posted - 2008.12.21 13:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sokratesz Poor troll or oblivious idiot? The audience decides!
I vote poor trolling idiot. ***Sig***
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 13:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: ElCoCo In the broader scheme of things the Thanatos is "the best" because: -It armortanks so fitting a sensorbooster and a medslot ECCM doesn't gimp your tank much -It can remote repair both shield and armor (most important) The 5% dmg bonus is ofc negligible but it's there... if it had a resistance bonus it would have been hands down the best.
According to your arguments the nid would be better than the thanatos because it does everything the thanatos do, and reps 25% more.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 14:10:00 -
[29]
Yes but I don't like the nidh's low hp and capacitor size. Boink! |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.12.21 14:23:00 -
[30]
Gallente Thanatos has fighter bonuses and larger drone bay. Meaning more pwn. It has Shield and armor RR bonuses. Meaning it is capable of RR the tank of anyone. This makes it the best carrier.
Amarr archon have an eanm built in. So it has a better tank then the thanatos meaning better survivability. It has armor and energy RR bonuses. Meaning only armor is used really. Energy serves very very little purpose. Perhaps only to assist in moving fleets? 2nd best because armor reps gallente and amarr ships. Which are common in pvp.
Caldari Chimera has invuln built in. So again it has better tank then thanny. It also has shield and energy bonuses. Meaning only shield is used. which isnt used as much. So 3rd best.
Minmatar Garbage Hauler has the ability to launch drones to collect garbage at long range. I guess that's about the only use it has. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
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