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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 14:38:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/12/2008 14:39:49
Originally by: ElCoCo Yes but I don't like the nidh's low hp and capacitor size.
HP difference is tiny (10%, or 15% with a damage control), and the cap isn't quite the issue with 2 CPR's.
Originally by: Jason Edwards Gallente Thanatos has fighter bonuses and larger drone bay. Meaning more pwn. It has Shield and armor RR bonuses. Meaning it is capable of RR the tank of anyone. This makes it the best carrier.
Amarr archon have an eanm built in. So it has a better tank then the thanatos meaning better survivability. It has armor and energy RR bonuses. Meaning only armor is used really. Energy serves very very little purpose. Perhaps only to assist in moving fleets? 2nd best because armor reps gallente and amarr ships. Which are common in pvp.
Caldari Chimera has invuln built in. So again it has better tank then thanny. It also has shield and energy bonuses. Meaning only shield is used. which isnt used as much. So 3rd best.
Minmatar Garbage Hauler has the ability to launch drones to collect garbage at long range. I guess that's about the only use it has.
WTS: clue
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.12.21 15:01:00 -
[32]
Your chances to survive in fleets are better when flying an armor tanked ship as alot mroe ppl have remote armor reps then shieldreps.
That said the chiemra is a good ship and i like flying mine, but i envy carriers being able to remote armor rep as well.
My advise would be to go for gallente caps, you can armor and shield remote rep, and have an armor tank yourself. Plus your damage bonus makes putting your fighters on a battleship so much more fun.
Another reason to go for gallente caps would be because of the moros, which, after the rev really is better dread for capital fights. Dunno on how many killmails i havent been because of slow ass capital missiles, or only a few of em arriving before the target dies. -
Boosters and PirateProfessions
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 15:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Your chances to survive in fleets are better when flying an armor tanked ship as alot mroe ppl have remote armor reps then shieldreps.
Urban legend and it keeps coming back.
Chimera - should always carry 2x shield reps (one extra energy transfer, optional Archon - should always carry 2x armour reps (one extra energy transfer, optional) Thanatos - should always carry one shield one armour Nidhoggur - should always carry one shield one armour (third to choice optional)
Now, the thanatos and chimera are most prevalent, thus, there is plenty of shield rr.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Rajere
No Trademark Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 15:10:00 -
[34]
The answer to the OP question depends entire only what you are using the carrier for, hence the great number of wild assumptions & incorrect and in some cases outright ******ed responses thus far.
Local Tanking ability: 1. Chimera 2. Archon (And nidhoggur if shield tanked) 3. Thanatos & Nidhoggur (armor tanked)
3 of the 4 carriers can remote shield rep. 3 of the 4 carriers can remote armor rep. The thanatos and Nidhoggur can do both, while the Chimera and Archon can remote energy transfer (heh). For pure local tanking ability, lets call this self sufficiency since it's more useful the less carriers you have that can remote rep you (solo/small gang situations, few ppl fitting the reppers you need) the chimera is the best shield tank, the archon is best armor tank, and in a purely academic sense Shield tanking is superior to armor. However both of these suffer with an extremely limited number of usable mid slots (archon just doesn't have them, chimera is using em for tanking) so for utility (SBs, ECCM, etc) and for overall versatility, it's between the Thanny and Nid.
The thanatos gets a fighter dmg bonus, useful for hotdropping and small engagements, less useful in larger fleet fights, useless for delegating fighters
The Nidhoggur gets a remote rep bonus, useful for larger fleet fights and small engagements, useless for hotdropping.
Pick one, ideally pick the one you already have battleship 5 for. -------------------------- NOTR *nsfw* |
EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.21 15:18:00 -
[35]
What would you guys do without me?
For fleet fights that involve multiple cap ships I would almost always have an Archon paired with another carrier, prefferably 2 archons, because they have 1) the best armor resists/hp amount out of all the carriers, 2) most people armor tank in PvP and 3) the energy transfer arrays.
With energy transfers you're literally making cap out of thin air, and with two archons transferring to each other you can run more modules longer or indefinitely.
Consequentially I wouldn't pair up a Thanatos and Niddy like you think it would be, it would have to be either Thanny/Niddy + Archon/Chimera, and only a Chimera if you shield tank your niddy. Optimally 2 Archons is what I would bring. This is for fleet fights however, simply because you have multiple carriers that can support each other.
Solo (as in you are the only cap ship or only carrier in the fleet) I would bring a Niddy first, Thanatos 2nd and Chimera third, but only because the Chimera is shield tanked. I say this because you are usually solo during a POS seige, and your remote repping abilities are more important than your local resists (rarely will a carrier get primaried over its support by a group of non-cap ships).
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 15:33:00 -
[36]
Originally by: EFT Warrior I say this because you are usually solo during a POS seige, and your remote repping abilities are more important than your local resists (rarely will a carrier get primaried over its support by a group of non-cap ships).
This statement automatically leads to the conclusion that archon/chimera/nid are great carriers in those situations, with the thanatos a little behind. Which is correct btw.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Ravenal
The Fated
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Posted - 2008.12.21 16:11:00 -
[37]
a gang of Nidhoggur are the best turtle tank.
A gang of Thanatos have the highest dps
A gang of Chimera and Archon are the most cap stable (remote cap reppers) ... less turtle rep or damage but higher sustainability. |
Seishomaru
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Posted - 2008.12.21 16:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Seishomaru
Archon >>>> others.. by FAR. Chimera is the worse in fleets because not many people can repair you.
The ignorance here shines so bright you could solar-power greater London with it.
aa yes sure.. I am the ignorant one. Not the guy that lost his mothership in a pathetic way...
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.21 16:48:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Janu Hull on 21/12/2008 16:51:31 Having spent more time than is healthy remote repping support fleets on POS bashes, lemme tell you that it doesn't matter WHAT kind of tank your support fleet uses, they appreciate ANY kind of repping when they get primaried by POS gunners.
I've remote repped Shield and Armor tanking battleships with the Chimera, its not like I'm going ignore a call for help from an armor repping pilot because I don't pack a Capital Remote Armor Repper...
Even if its not the same type of rep that they're using, IT IS STILL ****ING ADDITIONAL TANK THEY DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE YOU LOCKED ONTO THEM. I have never had an Armageddon or Dominix pilot complain that I'm repping their shields when they get primaried.
The arguement over what constitutes a "proper" repair assist from a carrier is beyond ******ed, because no matter what kind of rep we throw them, its still well in excess of what they can do locally. A "proper" rep effort from a carrier is one that keeps them alive, regardless of the type of friggin' points your giving them.
Idiots. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 17:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Seishomaru
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Seishomaru
Archon >>>> others.. by FAR. Chimera is the worse in fleets because not many people can repair you.
The ignorance here shines so bright you could solar-power greater London with it.
aa yes sure.. I am the ignorant one. Not the guy that lost his mothership in a pathetic way...
And that says anything about my knowledge or experience with them how? Yes I made a bad call and lost it, but it was used, properly, something that you cannot say of all motherships that have died so far. You come here spouting your bull**** without anything to back it up, it's not wanted, gtfo.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 17:18:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Janu Hull Edited by: Janu Hull on 21/12/2008 16:51:31 Having spent more time than is healthy remote repping support fleets on POS bashes, lemme tell you that it doesn't matter WHAT kind of tank your support fleet uses, they appreciate ANY kind of repping when they get primaried by POS gunners.
I've remote repped Shield and Armor tanking battleships with the Chimera, its not like I'm going ignore a call for help from an armor repping pilot because I don't pack a Capital Remote Armor Repper...
Even if its not the same type of rep that they're using, IT IS STILL ****ING ADDITIONAL TANK THEY DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE YOU LOCKED ONTO THEM. I have never had an Armageddon or Dominix pilot complain that I'm repping their shields when they get primaried.
The arguement over what constitutes a "proper" repair assist from a carrier is beyond ******ed, because no matter what kind of rep we throw them, its still well in excess of what they can do locally. A "proper" rep effort from a carrier is one that keeps them alive, regardless of the type of friggin' points your giving them.
Idiots.
Would you mind if I used this as an argument to aid my cause against the 'zomg armour rr is the only rr' movement? ;)
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.21 18:54:00 -
[42]
Go for it... In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.21 19:55:00 -
[43]
Even though I admit there are those I agree with less than Sokratesz(*cough* Liang*cough*) I usually don't. This time, there's no way to disagree. He's downright correct, and it's sadly one of the few areas in which he knows what he's talking about. Give the man a cookie and spare yourself the humiliation of arguing against him. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 444736
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Xephys
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Posted - 2008.12.21 20:00:00 -
[44]
Originally by: NoNah Even though I admit there are those I agree with less than Sokratesz(*cough* Liang*cough*) I usually don't. This time, there's no way to disagree. He's downright correct, and it's sadly one of the few areas in which he knows what he's talking about. Give the man a cookie and spare yourself the humiliation of arguing against him.
Pretty much this. I don't like Sok, but he knows what he's talking about. ;)
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 20:30:00 -
[45]
but but i just want to be friedns :(
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
ZephyrLexx
Caldari Earth Federation Space Forces
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Posted - 2008.12.21 21:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sokratesz but but i just want to be friedns :(
hi sok
can you give me a chimera setup and required skills to have before undocking with one? almost trained for it!
thanks!
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DamienV
CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.12.21 21:12:00 -
[47]
I went with thanatos for a couple reasons.
1)ability to rep armor/shields 2)bs5 for moros 3)my cap alt is gallente specced 4)it looks cool
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.21 21:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: ZephyrLexx
Originally by: Sokratesz but but i just want to be friedns :(
hi sok
can you give me a chimera setup and required skills to have before undocking with one? almost trained for it!
thanks!
Click the link in his sig. Walk into the Light. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.12.21 22:08:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/12/2008 15:06:53
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Your chances to survive in fleets are better when flying an armor tanked ship as alot mroe ppl have remote armor reps then shieldreps.
Urban legend and it keeps coming back.
Chimera - should always carry 2x shield reps (one extra energy transfer, optional Archon - should always carry 2x armour reps (one extra energy transfer, optional) Thanatos - should always carry one shield one armour Nidhoggur - should always carry one shield one armour (third to choice optional)
Thats how ppl should fit the carrier highs, but most simply dont. Just go around and check carrier mails, only few thans and even not many nidhs have shield remote reps, most of those pilots dont realize its very worth it to have both remote reps trained.
Makes the urban myth a true one ;) -
Boosters and PirateProfessions
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 22:20:00 -
[50]
http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=home&scl_id=27
There are some truly moronic carrier pilots around as our logs show, but usually when you are fighting the more competent, organised forces of a 0.0 alliance the fittings improve a lot. (check the engagements with KIA for example, and compare them with the more recent lone carrier kills)
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.21 22:32:00 -
[51]
The friction between those who favor an armor tank and those who favor a shield tank rarely acts as the catalyst for intelligent discourse no matter what class of ship people are talking about. Each side believes their preferred tanking mechanism is superior and they point to a long list of commonly cited facts to prove it. The problem is, they entirely neglect to mention the downsides of their tanking method and therefore fail to realize that the two methods are more or less equal when you take account for all the positives and negatives.
In general, one can compare tanking philosophies like this: Shield Tanks generally result in a stronger active tank on a slot per slot basis as an armor tank, and generally use less cap to generate each additional HP. The cap usage is a bit of a mystery - most shield tanked ships don't use weapons that draw cap, but by the same token they also tend to have relatively weak capacitors so it balances out.
Armor tanks generally result in a stronger buffer tank on a slot per slot basis. This is mostly due to the simple fact that there is no shield equivalent to the 1600mm plate. The Large Shield Extender is roughly as effective as an 800mm plate. The slave implant set removes any notion of contest between shield and armor EHP tanks entirely, solidly favoring the armor tank. Shield tanks have no equivalent implant set - the Crystal set bolsters active tanking instead, offering an undeniable advantage for subcapital active tanking.
Both tanking philosophies will generally result in a ship that is easier to hit. Shield tanks do so by making your ship larger, armor tanks make your ship slower.
Shield Tanks can often generate higher levels of resistances, mostly thanks to the undeniable superiority of the Invulnerability Field over the armor tanking parallel of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane. This helps offset the fact that shield tanks will almost certainly have less pure HP than an armor tank.
Shield tanks can generate a full tank set without sacrificing mobility or damage. Armor tanks can generate a full tank set without sacrificing tackle capability and other utility mid slot modules.
In an RR gang, in the purest terms the shield tank is superior thanks to higher resistances. However, since only one in four races favors the shield tank, most ships that are used for RR are armor tanked. This unnaturally swings the balance of power in favor of the armor tank.
At the carrier level, you have to realize the ships all perform the same basic functions on the battlefield. But, in a combat scenario it becomes rapidly apparent that any gang large enough to consider taking down a carrier will handily overpower it's local tanking capability as others have pointed out. This means the chimera's superior local tank is of little use. By the same token, any active tank (either local or remote) favors high resistances over high HP, meaning the Archon and Chimera are superior in terms of survivability. The chimera is, in all actuality the superior vessel for tanking either locally or remotely, BUT given the simple fact that there are more armor tanked ships in general the chimera again unnaturally sits in second place.
The Archon is the most logical choice for "best carrier", presuming your carrier duties include logistics and frontline combat duties. If you're corp and alliance field unusually high numbers of Caldari capital ships, then the Chimera becomes the logical choice. If you're carrier duties will involve nothing other than logistics and repping POS's the Nid is the best choice. The thanatos offers unparralled firepower (from a carrier) but has reduced tanking abilities.
Given the long train time to get into a carrier, perhaps the best answer is the simplest. Whichever race you first trained to BS V is probably the best choice as you'll have higher levels of skill in all the areas necessary to make a carrier something other than a deathtrap.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 23:04:00 -
[52]
Jee, is that your doctrine thesis or something? Boink! |
DamienV
CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.12.22 00:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Derek Sigres In an RR gang, in the purest terms the shield tank is superior thanks to higher resistances. However, since only one in four races favors the shield tank, most ships that are used for RR are armor tanked. This unnaturally swings the balance of power in favor of the armor tank.
At the carrier level, you have to realize the ships all perform the same basic functions on the battlefield. But, in a combat scenario it becomes rapidly apparent that any gang large enough to consider taking down a carrier will handily overpower it's local tanking capability as others have pointed out. This means the chimera's superior local tank is of little use. By the same token, any active tank (either local or remote) favors high resistances over high HP, meaning the Archon and Chimera are superior in terms of survivability. The chimera is, in all actuality the superior vessel for tanking either locally or remotely, BUT given the simple fact that there are more armor tanked ships in general the chimera again unnaturally sits in second place.
The Archon is the most logical choice for "best carrier", presuming your carrier duties include logistics and frontline combat duties. If you're corp and alliance field unusually high numbers of Caldari capital ships, then the Chimera becomes the logical choice. If you're carrier duties will involve nothing other than logistics and repping POS's the Nid is the best choice. The thanatos offers unparralled firepower (from a carrier) but has reduced tanking abilities.
One problem with this bit here is that at the capital level, RRing levels out.
3 ships can remote shield rep 3 can remote armor rep
so shield and armor tanking at the capital level are equal in terms of RR power. If someone is flying a nid or thanatos without remote shield or armor reps (unless they are doing something like POS repping, or in an armor only RR gang) are absolute fail.
I agree with just about everything else you say, and very nicely written.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.22 00:23:00 -
[54]
I would say thanny is the worst of the bunch.
Archon is best in a head to head fight due to high resists as well as it is armor tanked and uses armor reps which falls in line with most other people.
Chimera is a great ship for triage users, even if your reping armor tankers you could put on some heavy repping and the local tank in triage(pop a blue bill!) is incredible. I wouldn't really use it outside triage if I had a choice between other carriers though. Would be my first choice if more people shield tanked.
Nid is my favorite, has the best power for reps and can do both armor and shield, it's downfall though is it's own tank is relatively weak meaning you really need extra help keeping yourself alive.
Thanny is the worst in my books, DPS boost on a support ship is mildly entertaining, but I much prefer a ship that performs it's role better than anything else and the Nid, Archon and Chimera do the job better. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.22 00:34:00 -
[55]
I've tried playing around in EFT to see which two carriers you could pair with each other for spider tanking and logistics superiority. For armor tankers, bar none two Archons will permarun 2 remote reps and their own local tank if they give each other 1 cap transfer. Pairing two niddys won't get me the same amount of DPS tank simply due to the much lower resists on each of them, regardless of the remote rep bonus.
Beyond that, the thanny doesn't offer much other than slightly better resists/ehp than the thanny but not as good as the archon. The chimera is very good if you have nothing but shield tanks, so overall:
If you're being shot at, the Archon is the best, even better if you have two archons.
If you're not being shot at (usually the case if you have support with you and the enemy has no cap ships themselves), the niddy is the best.
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Rezaa
Pandemonium Technologies
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Posted - 2008.12.22 00:46:00 -
[56]
I love how all these people chime in as EVE FIT WARRIORS, with NO practical experience in actually using them in combat.
ItÆs been debated to the ends of the earth but the fact remains that the Chimera and the Archon are the two top contenders. And they have slightly different applications.
There are only 2 things that a carrier pilot needs to be concerned with. (For the most part)
#1 Fleet support
#2 Survivability
You are there to keep other people alive. You are NOT there for DPS support. And you must be able to take the hits long enough to keep every one else alive!! THATÆS A CARRIERöS FUNCTION!!
Now the chimera and the archon are better suited to different fleets.
For the chimera----- Is better suited to pos rep, and for fast movers I.E. Hacks, Recons, and other T2 ships. Due to the high native resists of T2 ships and to the fact that nearly all fast movers are fit for shield buffer/speed. (Have you ever seen a BS fleet TRY to kill a broadsword that is resistance tanked with 2-3 chimerasÆ reping him?!?! Talk about LOL!!)
For the archon----- Is better suited to Dred rep and BS rep. Due to the commonality of armor tanks on BSÆs and DredÆs. (With the recent change to Citadel torps this may change)
Now for ôsmall gangö support the Thanny or the Nid might be more versatile. BUT WITHOUT A PROPER FLEET YOU SHOULDNÆT BE JUMPING A CARRIER IN THE FIRST PLACE!! So their added versatility/DPS is MEANINGLESS.
And it BURNS my SOUL to say any thing nice to a member of TRI. But I must give credit where it is due. SOK knows what he is talking about. You nubs would learn a lot from him by keeping your jaw shut and you ears open. Other wise I look forward to seeing you LOL fit carriers on some oneÆs kill board.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.12.22 01:28:00 -
[57]
MAKE SURE YOU WRITE MORE STUFF IN CAPS WHAT OTHERS HAVE POSTED HERE ALRDY AND ADD A FEW MORE SMILEYS AS WELL PLZ -
Boosters and PirateProfessions
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Wideen
Warped Mining Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2008.12.22 01:50:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Wideen on 22/12/2008 01:50:55 MY CAPITAL ***** WAS EQUIPPED WITH THE FOLLOWING:
must say very entertaining thread! as the cake is about to get eaten, what matters is rly situational I believe, hence no best nor worst.
I've been wanting a nid for a while, and guess what, I'm gonna get it despite all the crap it takes from thread to thread. I'll just hope I won't end up in the wrong situation...
Edit: you can't write *****? but... ok geddon-look-alike then
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NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.22 02:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Rezaa I love how all these people chime in as EVE FIT WARRIORS, with NO practical experience in actually using them in combat.
For the archon----- Is better suited to Dred rep and BS rep. Due to the commonality of armor tanks on BSÆs and DredÆs.
Did that make anyone but me giggle? Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 718341
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.22 03:45:00 -
[60]
One argument I'll make for the superiority of shield repping carriers.
When does a shield tanker call for help? When they're running low on shields.
When does an armor tanker call for help? When they're running low on armor.
Shield repping carriers can assist either one of these, because the armor tanker's shields are long gone, and restoring them gives them a buffer behind which to recover their local tank.
Armor repping carriers are useless to shield tankers, because the shield tanker hasn't taken armor damage yet.
Bottom line, shield repping carriers can assist any ship in the field. Armor repping carriers aren't getting "in front" of the tank that the shield reppers are trying to sustain, so they're really losing a significant amount of support performance for it.
You can argue like idiots about the prevalence of armor tankers in PvP, but the reality is, your best POS bashers are Ravens and Phoenixes with the ideal damage selection, and your best fleet ECM ships are Caldari, your best fleet snipers are Caldari.
Shield tankers are critical elements of a balanced PvP fleet, so setting your capital logistics support to be primarily useless to them is stupid. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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