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How is it possible to have a true manufacturing corporations in Eve Online???

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Carlton Foster Stizzy Twins Salvage 2	Posted - 2012.04.13 03:48:00 - [1] - Quote There is a bug in Eve Online (or maybe an intentional game deisgn, who knows) that allows someone with the "Factory Manager" slot to cancel any and all corporation projects at any time. How can someone run a manufacturing corporation in Eve with this bug? Or are corporations really just guilds with a different name? That would explain why they are in the social tab in the neocom instead of the business tab.
Bath Sheeba Another Success Story 44	Posted - 2012.04.13 04:55:00 - [2] - Quote Carlton Foster wrote: There is a bug in Eve Online (or maybe an intentional game deisgn, who knows) that allows someone with the "Factory Manager" slot to cancel any and all corporation projects at any time. How can someone run a manufacturing corporation in Eve with this bug? Or are corporations really just guilds with a different name? That would explain why they are in the social tab in the neocom instead of the business tab. Well, isn't that the purpose of a "Factory Manager"? I.E. someone who MANAGES a factory? Last I checked managers at any employer can tell workers to stop doing something. Like how a manager at a newspaper can "stop the presses" and tell everyone to re-set the paper. Tell us what you are intending to do, there is probably a way that will not involve your CEO selling his soul to control. :)
Jinrai Tremaine Borealis Mining Concern IMPERIAL LEGI0N 0	Posted - 2012.04.13 09:16:00 - [3] - Quote I'm just guessing here, but I think the OP's problem was more or less "If I give someone the factory manager role so that they can set up their own jobs, it also allows them to cancel everyone else's jobs, which is not a risk I am comfortable with". I don't know for sure, but is it possible to tweak corporate permissions so that a member can create a corporate manufacturing job but not cancel it? If so that role could go to the builders, with an actual factory manager above them who could be called upon to cancel any jobs made by mistake (and obviously that role only goes to someone you can trust to not screw with people's jobs).
Dasola Rookies Empire Rookie Empire 11	Posted - 2012.04.13 10:30:00 - [4] - Quote As long as i have been playing this game its been this way all the time.. Factory manager can cancel all corporation manufacturing jobs, bossibly leading to massive loses in materials.. And theres no way to tweak it. Thats why i have my own alt corp to handle my manufacturing needs, so i dont need to worry about such security holes by design. [Insert something funny or smart here]
Carlton Foster Stizzy Twins Salvage 2	Posted - 2012.04.13 10:40:00 - [5] - Quote So it sounds like the statement is true. You can not run a true manufacturing corporation in Eve Online. If you think differently please tell me how to do it, because as far as I can tell it simply can't be done. Which in my opinion is a huge hole in the game. The tutorials say you can be a captain of industry, but this is simply not true. Because of this bug you can only be a captain of your own industry as you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs. How can someone create a manafacuring corps with a 100 employees if any one of those employees can shut down everything at any time?
Rengerel en Distel Khanid Research Corporation 40	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:26:00 - [6] - Quote Carlton Foster wrote: So it sounds like the statement is true. You can not run a true manufacturing corporation in Eve Online. If you think differently please tell me how to do it, because as far as I can tell it simply can't be done. Which in my opinion is a huge hole in the game. The tutorials say you can be a captain of industry, but this is simply not true. Because of this bug you can only be a captain of your own industry as you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs. How can someone create a manafacuring corps with a 100 employees if any one of those employees can shut down everything at any time? My guess would be all the other corporations that do it actually only give that role to people they trust. If they get burned by those people, atleast it was just a select few, and not the entire corporation. Don't assume bad intent, when stupidity is the much more likely cause.
Lady Ayeipsia Morskoj Industries 73	Posted - 2012.04.13 12:02:00 - [7] - Quote How many manufacturers do you need? Why not setup your corp as an indy alliance. Select corps manage select pos/manufacturing. This way a factory manager can still only cancel jobs from one corp. Or, have important jobs done by people you trust on a personal level, only letting factory managers interact with minor grunt construction projects.
Ackemi Phenome Tactical 2	Posted - 2012.04.13 12:37:00 - [8] - Quote Possibly up your game to a manufacturing alliance since POS are corporate assets? Fewer security loopholes traded off for lots of work "working together"... Edit: Someone beat me to it!
Velicitia Open Designs 827	Posted - 2012.04.13 12:41:00 - [9] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: How many manufacturers do you need? Why not setup your corp as an indy alliance. Select corps manage select pos/manufacturing. This way a factory manager can still only cancel jobs from one corp. Or, have important jobs done by people you trust on a personal level, only letting factory managers interact with minor grunt construction projects. won't work in a POS -- only the owning corp can use manufacturing slots.
Celeritas 5k Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus 29	Posted - 2012.04.13 13:45:00 - [10] - Quote You're absolutely right about the factory manager position and how hard it sucks, but your conclusion that it's impossible to run a manufacturing corp in the game is dead wrong. I had one for months and made billions (I eventually got burned out as it was like a second job, but we never had any corp theft/griefing problems.) The fact is that while there are of course corp thiefs all over the place, your average player isn't one. I was also very careful to keep the cost benefit equation in my favor-- I only kept a few days of manufacturing materials in the general access hangar, and paid well enough that a corp theft would only gain them a week or two worth of pay at the expense of their reputation.

Bath Sheeba Another Success Story 44	Posted - 2012.04.13 14:05:00 - [11] - Quote OK, I see your complaint.....hmmmmm One way to handle it is to hold a deposit in the corp against their misuse of the factory manager role. This is a problematical role, however, it is not insurmountable. All the corp roles mechanics are in dire need of review and reworking by CCP, but saying that it breaks the whole idea is ludicrous.
Kobalos The Oasis Group Combat Mining and Logistics 4	Posted - 2012.04.13 14:47:00 - [12] - Quote I haven't started my test corp on my alt yet, but perhaps CEO's should be able to choose from CCP pre-designed roles and then if those roles don't meet their needs they can create their own roles/role templates. CCP could use the rule manager in MS Outlook as a good example of how it could work. Just a thought. - Kobalos
Gatan Hahran Brukterer DUCT TAPE UNION 99	Posted - 2012.04.13 15:54:00 - [13] - Quote If you want to give corp roles to people you always have to break their will first, so they dont make you problems. A solid way to do this is giving them very exhausting jobs first. When their brain is tired you give them very confusing orders that cant be done, followed by yelling at them in teamspeak until they start crying. If you do everything right they will never cancel any jobs of the corp. Glad to help out.
Emma Royd Jupiter Industries C0LD Fusion 108	Posted - 2012.04.13 16:26:00 - [14] - Quote Long and Short of it, roles suck, ccp see industry and don't really care. These problems and the problems with Pos roles have been an issue for years, and nothing has changed significantly, there's been dozens if not hundreds of posts about them over the years, CCP can't be blind, so it's obvious they just don't give a rats arse about the problems. There's been lots of ideas banded about, giving a seperate role to cancel jobs mainly, so you could grant 1 role to the normal members of the corp, and the ability to cancel jobs to more trusted members. But nothing happens, the industrialists are getting a slight boost with the nerfing of drone poop and I think I read something about the module drop table changing so any module / ammo etc that has a blueprint won't drop, so mining is become more attractive, but high-sec miners are just a target for more suicide gankers, so it's mixed blessings. I saw an image of an advanced mining crystal banded about the other week, but no further mention of it anywhere, some plan for making 0.0 mining more attractive but it's anyone's guess if 1) it will ever happen and 2) when.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 598	Posted - 2012.04.13 17:20:00 - [15] - Quote Give Factory Manager to trusted people. Those people log in everyday and deliver all completed jobs. It means having to wait for the Manager to deliver.
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 860	Posted - 2012.04.13 18:19:00 - [16] - Quote Emma Royd wrote: Long and Short of it, roles suck, ccp see industry and don't really care. CCP cares, but they also have a lot of other fish to fry. And touching the corp roles / POS code is a delicate and tricky business because of its age / complexity. Rumors say we might see improvements in 6-12 months.
Velicitia Open Designs 828	Posted - 2012.04.13 18:39:00 - [17] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Emma Royd wrote: Long and Short of it, roles suck, ccp see industry and don't really care. CCP cares, but they also have a lot of other fish to fry. And touching the corp roles / POS code is a delicate and tricky business because of its age / complexity. Rumors say we might see improvements soon(TM). FTFY Bob
Skorpynekomimi Omega Vector 173	Posted - 2012.04.13 19:26:00 - [18] - Quote Not a bug. It's a feature, and, frankly, a design flaw. It needs work, CCP KNOW it needs work, and it's incredibly hard to work ON.
Alexa Coates The Scope Gallente Federation 92	Posted - 2012.04.13 21:30:00 - [19] - Quote It's impossible to have a industrial corp because some jackasses WILL wardec you because HERP DERP WE LUV UR TEARS DURRRRR. Love my Gallente Federation Navy ships!
Carlton Foster Stizzy Twins Salvage 2	Posted - 2012.04.13 21:45:00 - [20] - Quote Alexa Coates wrote: It's impossible to have a industrial corp because some jackasses WILL wardec you because HERP DERP WE LUV UR TEARS DURRRRR. Wardecs I can deal with. Bugs in the role management system cause me no end of issues. But enough whining about it. I just hope someday CCP fixes this issue.

Emma Royd Jupiter Industries C0LD Fusion 108	Posted - 2012.04.14 19:24:00 - [21] - Quote Bob, these problems have been going on for YEARS not months, well within the realms of being able to be fixed, but CCP choose not to fix them, therefore they do not think it's enough of an issue compared to say developing a new tier of Battlecruisers for example, therefore they don't care about it. I'm not saying that CCP should drop things immediately and sort the roles out, but while I'm no programmer, I can't imagine it's that difficult to create a "Factory Install" or "Laboratory Install" to run along side the Factory or Laboratory Manager roll, giving the rights to install a job but not to stop a job. I've heard tale of this pos revision that's meant to be in the pipelines, but since I've been playing for coming up 6 years, I'm afraid I'll believe it when I see it. But we'll see what happens
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 868	Posted - 2012.04.15 00:24:00 - [22] - Quote Emma Royd wrote: I'm not saying that CCP should drop things immediately and sort the roles out, but while I'm no programmer, I can't imagine it's that difficult to create a "Factory Install" or "Laboratory Install" to run along side the Factory or Laboratory Manager roll, giving the rights to install a job but not to stop a job. There's a CCP post from 1-2 years ago where they talked about the existing corporate roles system. Basically, it's impossible to add roles to the system as it currently functions. So sadly, it is that difficult. At least according to CCP. It's old fragile code. The only upside is that (a) Keld presented a huge list of issues to CCP during his office tour at Fan Fest and (b) it sounds like POS/corp stuff may finally be on the schedule. But there's no commitment yet from CCP on a release date or even a planned development cycle.
Sahara Uhuru 4	Posted - 2012.04.15 17:14:00 - [23] - Quote If you have a corp with real friends, ppl you know on a close buddy pal basis it is very much possible to make a manufacturing corp. But as you mentioned 100 members: what is it you want to do? With 100 active members busy manufacturing stuff you'd need to spread wide because of the need of production lines. Supplying those lines with ores would be mean feat. Needing several ppl managing the buying of raw materials and a fleet of frighters constantly hauling ore to the production facilities and goods to the trade hubs all over eve.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate 625	Posted - 2012.04.15 18:48:00 - [24] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: There's a CCP post from 1-2 years ago where they talked about the existing corporate roles system. Basically, it's impossible to add roles to the system as it currently functions. So sadly, it is that difficult. At least according to CCP. It's old fragile code. Bob is speaking the truth, as he usually does. CCP explained that corp roles are based on 16 bits. This does not give a lot of options. Many roles seem to overlap or have odd prerequisites because of this limitation. Eve outgrew the roles system. Certainly we would all like to see something that provides ease and lots of granularity. This isn't terribly difficult to do from scratch, but merging into a legacy system flawlessly is a bit of a chore. Fortunately for CCP there are infinitely scalable solutions already available. How easily CCP could merge that into Eve is something else. They do not have to reinvent the wheel, but they do need to make sure hamsters and wheels can speak with one another.
Tash'k Omar Apple Construction Inc Northern Associates. 9	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:07:00 - [25] - Quote Carlton Foster wrote: So it sounds like the statement is true. You can not run a true manufacturing corporation in Eve Online. If you think differently please tell me how to do it, because as far as I can tell it simply can't be done. Which in my opinion is a huge hole in the game. The tutorials say you can be a captain of industry, but this is simply not true. Because of this bug you can only be a captain of your own industry as you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs. How can someone create a manafacuring corps with a 100 employees if any one of those employees can shut down everything at any time? Why would you trust others when you can run a corporation of 100 alts? Delegating is for amatures.
Kesker Integrated Massive Dynamics 13	Posted - 2012.05.11 21:23:00 - [26] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Rumors say we might see improvements in 6-12 months. Bob.... DON'T TEASE ME!!! On a more serious note though, corp roles have been in need of a major rehaul for a long time. I've been compiling a list for months. Not only is it an issue with factory jobs, but also corporate inventory management. As an example, if you wish to use a audit logged station container so that you can monitor who is accessing, you also have to give them container rights to look at or pull anything. With container rights, a member could just transfer the whole container to their personal hanger. Makes sense right? Audit container for logging, but they can just take the whole thing and there isn't a log for that. *Kesker shakes head in disbelief Completely off topic of factory manager, but it's essentially the same issue. ROLES They are completely fracked.
Katalci Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp 81	Posted - 2012.05.12 20:31:00 - [27] - Quote Carlton Foster wrote: you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs. You can just find people you trust, you know.
Deimona Legion Enterprises Inc. 0	Posted - 2012.05.12 21:40:00 - [28] - Quote Katalci wrote: Carlton Foster wrote: you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs. You can just find people you trust, you know. Find people you trust? In eve?
Katja Faith Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.05.13 14:21:00 - [29] - Quote Do you think Steve Jobs or Bill Gates ran the cash registers in their company lunch halls? Sorry, but OP doesn't have a clue what corp (or company) management entails.
Drusella Uanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.05.14 01:40:00 - [30] - Quote Rule #1: Trust no one Rule #2: If someone says you can trust them, they are scamming you Rule #3: If you think you can trust someone, they haven't scammed you yet Truth is even if you find people you can trust its only a matter of time before a founding member of your alliance empties the holding corp's wallet and disbands the alliance because he's pissed at someone.



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