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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 03:40:00 -
[31]
Because the Arazu can only lock down one ship.
Because damps pretty much suck.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:01:00 -
[32]
Originally by: RedSplat I am waiting for the the whine crowd to focus on TD's, hopefully they are too focussed on Cloaks at the moment to notice.
Depends. As the above posters said, they have a lot of drawbacks. They really only give you super ninja powers if you put them on something that's already pretty hard to hit - frigs, basically. I'll agree that certain AFs that got boosted with this patch (Ishkur, Harpy) are even better if you drop a web for a TD though.
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DEATHsyphon
Gallente 8lack Wing Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 07:20:00 -
[33]
My Arazu eats Falcons For breakfast nom nom nom nom |
techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.25 07:28:00 -
[34]
Originally by: DEATHsyphon My Arazu eats Falcons For breakfast nom nom nom nom
Well, drones on the arazu make it a whole lot better for damage and nearly a solo-able ship. Falcon needs backup.
But if you're in warp scram range with an Arazu on Falcon, chances are the Arazu will get jammed and the falcon will warp out, since Damps will not drop the range on the falcon down below 50 or so KM ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Kirtan Loor
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.12.25 09:28:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kirtan Loor on 25/12/2008 09:28:14 Dampeners are stacking penalized. 3+ dampeners on a ship won't change anything TD's are stacking penalized. 3+ TD's on a ship won't further reduce optimal/falloff/tracking. Webs, TP's...almost all EW is stacking nerfed.
A falcon can assign 6 modules to a single target and still gets good results from those beyond 3rd.
Please remove stacking penalty from other forms of ewar too. |
Leeluvv
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.12.25 16:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor A falcon can assign 6 modules to a single target and still gets good results from those beyond 3rd.
Err, each ECM module is treated as a totally separate effect, so they don't stack AT ALL.
Lee == Sig to follow |
Atazep
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Posted - 2008.12.25 16:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor Edited by: Kirtan Loor on 25/12/2008 09:28:14 Dampeners are stacking penalized. 3+ dampeners on a ship won't change anything TD's are stacking penalized. 3+ TD's on a ship won't further reduce optimal/falloff/tracking. Webs, TP's...almost all EW is stacking nerfed.
A falcon can assign 6 modules to a single target and still gets good results from those beyond 3rd.
Please remove stacking penalty from other forms of ewar too.
i agree whit you but if they remove stack penalty the combat recons will be prety strong,they can give penalty for Falcon or just to give range for other force recons ships it may improve a little arazu and pilgrim.But other point is what will be diference when arazu is at 150-200km from battlefiled and damp ships lets say whit range skrips and the battle is close range?I don't think that it will be in much help!
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Wardeneo
DEATHFUNK Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 16:39:00 -
[38]
/me sighs depends on what angle u look at it, as some ppl have stated arazu has better tanks/dps in many cases, its a 1000000000000% better takler adn if u look closly falcon is better for ecm and razu for damps and scram range :)
wardeneo
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Corrock
Minmatar SUBLIME L.L.C. SUBLIME CREATIONS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2008.12.25 16:46:00 -
[39]
"Nerf everything! Nerf it all till the only viable option is to stand there and shoot and tank, like Real Men used to!" I think in their heart of hearts a lot of people really don't want to have think or plan or develop actual tactics.
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Atazep
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Posted - 2008.12.25 16:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Wardeneo /me sighs depends on what angle u look at it, as some ppl have stated arazu has better tanks/dps in many cases, its a 1000000000000% better takler adn if u look closly falcon is better for ecm and razu for damps and scram range :)
wardeneo
well i doubt that idea in recons is to be tank,but all clever player play falcon whit 1600 plate so taht way falcon has a little better tank.If you say that Arazu has a better dps well go in fleet battle and i wish to see your dps :)if you survive long enough.
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Gunner Chick
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Posted - 2008.12.25 17:44:00 -
[41]
i dunno, maybe cause one ship can knock multiple ships out of combat(typically indefinately until their death) while itself being 200+ kms away with the ability to warp cloaked?
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Gunner Chick
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Posted - 2008.12.25 17:47:00 -
[42]
Quote: "Nerf everything! Nerf it all till the only viable option is to stand there and shoot and tank, like Real Men used to!" I think in their heart of hearts a lot of people really don't want to have think or plan or develop actual tactics.
Anti-whiner stance is fail. Tbh, as an old schooler amarr pilot that likes big tank and gank i kinda like your idea hahahaha
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Atazep
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Posted - 2008.12.25 17:54:00 -
[43]
i was thinking that if they just remove this delay after being jamed(20sec i think)it will be a little better,so if falcon turn off his jamer you will be abble to lock instant(or how long you need)and to be immune(sound awfull for caldary recon pilot) for some time.But there is problem whit falcon huge range and none of this for other force recon ship.
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UD549
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:23:00 -
[44]
Falcons can't solo and falcons can't tackle. The only 2 recons ships that are the worst for solo pvp are the rook and the falcon, frigate dps and no drone bay is laughable for solo work. Also your forgetting the Arazu extra scram bonus which makes it one of the best tacklers in the game and also damps work %100. Your augument: Yea but ecm works almost %100. My response: Then bring a falcon u dope. Also Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday JESUS.
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UD549
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gunner Chick i dunno, maybe cause one ship can knock multiple ships out of combat(typically indefinately until their death) while itself being 200+ kms away with the ability to warp cloaked?
Only in gang. Falcon does 0 dps from 200km u dope. If your solo and your fighting a blob with or without a falcon your dead. Also would you bring intercepters to your gang to tackle or would you leave that for a bs, no you would bring the proper ships now stop whining and bring a falcon.
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Gunner Chick
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:27:00 -
[46]
Quote: Falcons can't solo and falcons can't tackle. The only 2 recons ships that are the worst for solo pvp are the rook and the falcon, frigate dps and no drone bay is laughable for solo work. Also your forgetting the Arazu extra scram bonus which makes it one of the best tacklers in the game and also damps work %100. Your augument: Yea but ecm works almost %100. My response: Then bring a falcon u dope. Also Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday JESUS.
What you just said is like saying my 2009 corvett has small trunk space, no back seat and is too low to the ground. Because of that, it so obviously sucks at what it does.
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Gunner Chick
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:28:00 -
[47]
Quote: Only in gang. Falcon does 0 dps from 200km u dope. If your solo and your fighting a blob with or without a falcon your dead. Also would you bring intercepters to your gang to tackle or would you leave that for a bs, no you would bring the proper ships now stop whining and bring a falcon.
Im gonna cut are arguement short by telling you they will be nerfed. They will be nerfed because they are a constant and ccp hates that. They will be nerfed because they contain all the aspects of ships that have been nerfed in the past. now argue on
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Vrikshaka
0ff-Peak Esoteric Cutthroats
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Gunner Chick
Quote: Falcons can't solo and falcons can't tackle. The only 2 recons ships that are the worst for solo pvp are the rook and the falcon, frigate dps and no drone bay is laughable for solo work. Also your forgetting the Arazu extra scram bonus which makes it one of the best tacklers in the game and also damps work %100. Your augument: Yea but ecm works almost %100. My response: Then bring a falcon u dope. Also Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday JESUS.
What you just said is like saying my 2009 corvett has small trunk space, no back seat and is too low to the ground. Because of that, it so obviously sucks at what it does.
This. Best response I've seen yet to the "But omg omg look at all the stuff the falcon CAN'T do!!!1!" argument.
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Atazep
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:44:00 -
[49]
Originally by: UD549
Originally by: Gunner Chick i dunno, maybe cause one ship can knock multiple ships out of combat(typically indefinately until their death) while itself being 200+ kms away with the ability to warp cloaked?
Only in gang. Falcon does 0 dps from 200km u dope. If your solo and your fighting a blob with or without a falcon your dead. Also would you bring intercepters to your gang to tackle or would you leave that for a bs, no you would bring the proper ships now stop whining and bring a falcon.
well lets all play falcons then,probably that is CCP idea?Or wait it is not,nobody whining we just discuse advantage of falcon compare whit other force recons,and i my sugest to keep prober language,none of player in this game is a stupid kid(i don't say that there are none idiots but as i see few i forums)
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Atazep
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Posted - 2008.12.25 18:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Vrikshaka
Originally by: Gunner Chick
Quote: Falcons can't solo and falcons can't tackle. The only 2 recons ships that are the worst for solo pvp are the rook and the falcon, frigate dps and no drone bay is laughable for solo work. Also your forgetting the Arazu extra scram bonus which makes it one of the best tacklers in the game and also damps work %100. Your augument: Yea but ecm works almost %100. My response: Then bring a falcon u dope. Also Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday JESUS.
What you just said is like saying my 2009 corvett has small trunk space, no back seat and is too low to the ground. Because of that, it so obviously sucks at what it does.
neither falcon,heither arazu are solo ships,if you fly solo whit them you are,well i prefer not to say.....
This. Best response I've seen yet to the "But omg omg look at all the stuff the falcon CAN'T do!!!1!" argument.
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UD549
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Posted - 2008.12.25 19:00:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gunner Chick
Quote: Falcons can't solo and falcons can't tackle. The only 2 recons ships that are the worst for solo pvp are the rook and the falcon, frigate dps and no drone bay is laughable for solo work. Also your forgetting the Arazu extra scram bonus which makes it one of the best tacklers in the game and also damps work %100. Your augument: Yea but ecm works almost %100. My response: Then bring a falcon u dope. Also Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday JESUS.
What you just said is like saying my 2009 corvett has small trunk space, no back seat and is too low to the ground. Because of that, it so obviously sucks at what it does.
Comparing internet spaceships to real life automobiles...you already lose that argument. Oh and corvette has an "e" at the end.
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UD549
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Posted - 2008.12.25 19:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gunner Chick
Quote: Only in gang. Falcon does 0 dps from 200km u dope. If your solo and your fighting a blob with or without a falcon your dead. Also would you bring intercepters to your gang to tackle or would you leave that for a bs, no you would bring the proper ships now stop whining and bring a falcon.
Im gonna cut are arguement short by telling you they will be nerfed. They will be nerfed because they are a constant and ccp hates that. They will be nerfed because they contain all the aspects of ships that have been nerfed in the past. now argue on
Yea they probably will, but the next month they'll nerf the ship(s) your flying and you'll be whining even more. You must have gotten owned by a falcon so now your on a nerf the falcon crusade...lol falcons permajam and you permawhine I'm not even gonna read your response because I know your type,,all you do is whine.
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Atazep
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Posted - 2008.12.25 19:15:00 -
[53]
well i don't fly whit gallente recons anymore becose they sux(exept as i sad capital fleet) but i can fly whit amar and have max skills whit both races,so i no need to whininh at all,if they nerv something just go to other race,but i doubth that is the point and what will do the new player? What even falcon need reduse range jamers range and as i see 85% here are agree whit me!!!
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.25 20:00:00 -
[54]
The problem is that the falcon is a good ship to have in a med sized gang combat, but that makes it very powerful in smaller gang combat, while also being rather useless in fleet fights or actually in high numbers due to the inability to assign a high amount of targets during combat.
The hate for ecm comes from ppl who got jammed due to pure frustration.
Oh and there is only such a thing as perma jamming against ships with low sig str.
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 01:43:00 -
[55]
All other recons have to dedicate almost ALL their ewar to a single target to cripple it. The falcon can single handily cripple multiple ships, and that CAN be done (and it's done regularly) even without racial jammers...a falcon that dedicates a comparable amount of cap, ewar modules and whatever short of micromanagement all other force or field recons require in order to make a difference in a gang is sure to perma jam nearly ANYTHING jammable...dual heated-ECCMed Logistics, carriers, BSs, other recons, u name it.
And it's all done way further than any other form of ewar, unlike other recons that can be touched and be vulnerable against other recons and non specialized anti-falcon setups. In fact I've never seen a "omg, I need and anti Arazu setup" or I need an anti-Rapier / Curse / Pilgrim etc setup for years now...it's not my or other ppls frustration due to ignorance that makes the falcon overpowered, especially when you will rarely see a gang willing to fight without it's 20-25% of ships being falcons! It's nearly impossible to fight against falcons unless you blob heavily - and that's what's the frustration about: falcons ruin the fun - hell, even most falcon pilots I know are tired of flying falcons, and I believe that's because of the silly amount of challenge it provides...even nosing nano-domis required more effort - at least u got locked by something more than other nosing-nano-domies, you managed drones etc...If that was described as an I-win-Button, the falcon wouldn't make it for quoter that. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
NoNah
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Posted - 2008.12.26 02:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Aleus Stygian And how is this different from the way I get called in my Pilgrim or Rapier? Given the ability and incentive to actually tank, the Falcon can survive from 100 km, the ship's jammers contributing even more to survivability. Far more than a couple of TDs against multiple ships, and cerainly more than TPs and webs, that is. Falcon pilots will simply start having to think and react the same knife-edge way the rest of us regular, game-balanced Recon pilots do. That means having to risk it, plan, not overextend oneself and generally think.
As it is, Dampener ships with sensor boosters or other Falcons, or sniper battleships, are all you really need to screw with the Falcon's cloaking ability. And since it's a Force Recon, it should have a bloody cloak. So no way JosT should it be removed.
Also, if Falcons get primaried after having their range removed, it will be less because of game imbalance and more because a): they engaged in a fight where they couldn't jam all ships or jam them at once, not an uncommon problem for a pilot using some other type of EWAR, even in a gang, or b): peple know full well how effective ECM is now and overall bear a grudge toward Falcons and their proponents in general for flying - exploiting - these things like bloody cowards.[/quote
First off, I think you're misinterpreting me - greatly. I'm not saying falcons shouldn't have cloaks, I'm saying their jams should not work while cloaked.
Pilgrims and Rapiers can't be judged in the same manner as Arazus and Falcons, simply because both of those can quite well sneak into a system and pick of ratters, haulers and most other unaware soloers on their own. Pilgrim have no place in a fleet fight, but it is also one of the most potent soloships.
If falcons range are reduced, they will be made into overly expensive blackbirds. The value of warping cloaked is only worth that much. If they are supposed to be inline with everyone else range they should also have similar options for tanking and dealing damage. If cycles were shorter and/or broken by cloaking, the extended damps would even if just tickling percentagewise bring them quite a bit closer. If three damps removes 75% locking range and that means the falcons now have to be 75km away that's enough to get more than very specialized ships hitting them - but you still have to fit specially for it.
Right now the ranges are Falcon: 0-249km(give or take) Pilgrim: 0-15km Rapier: 15-60km Arazu: Well... diffuse. (I would've wanted to put something like 60-249km here.)
At 0km range an Arazus both bonuses are completely wasted. At some 9-18km the scrambler bonus is _awesome_. At 25km range the disruptor bonus starts taking effect, however there are very few ships engaging at 25km that is affected by damps. You start getting use for it at some 50-60km out, at which range the disruptor bonus ends. So far so good, it's an excellent ship with a few greys - as it should be. However you're already in falloff, so you're soon better off in a falcon, where your ECM's ALWAYS are useful, not only chancebased effects on a select handful of ships with certain setups.
The Arazu is kind of built to be less effective at short range and then increasingly effective over range, but then they decided to give it an optimal of 30-45km.
Short and simple answer is that Rapier and Pilgrim are offensive and mobile ships. Falcon and Arazu are defensive(arazu less defensive with a tad more offensive capabilities). If you could be effectively offensive at 150km range solo, something is terribly wrong.
Tracking disruptors and target painters range is not necessarily perfect, but a minor issue that has nothing to do with this thread. They won't counter falcons and that bonus itself won't compete with it. Most of their use is at short range and extreme range would make them horribly overpowered from a single module perspective. I basically doubt any Rapier Pilot would want to switch their web rangebonus for TP. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 707284
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Kirtan Loor
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.12.26 08:28:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Kirtan Loor on 26/12/2008 08:29:17
Originally by: Leeluvv
Originally by: Kirtan Loor A falcon can assign 6 modules to a single target and still gets good results from those beyond 3rd.
Err, each ECM module is treated as a totally separate effect, so they don't stack AT ALL.
Lee
Lets assume a falcon vs battleship case. With 14 jamming str vs 22 sensor str...and lets assume falcon has only 1 suitable racial, other 5 are jammers for other races(4.67 str).
14/22 = %63.63 chance => %36 Not to get jammed x1 4.67/22 = %21.21 chance => %78 not to get jammed x5
So you get a total chance of 0.36*0.78^5 = %11 to not to get jammed
Now let's introduce the stacking. In this case the first jammer (14) is not affected. The other jammer's powers are reduced by stacking penalty. Thats:
14/22 = 63.63% chance => 36% chance Not to get jammed 0.87*4.67/22 = 18.55% chance => 81.5% chance Not to get jammed 0.57*4.67/22 = 12.1% chance => 88% chance Not to get jammed 0.28*4.67/22 = 6% chance => 94% chance Not to get jammed 0.11*4.67/22 = 2.1% chance => 98% chance Not to get jammed 0.03*4.67/22 = 0.6% chance => 99.4% chance Not to get jammed
So as result the chance to survive a cycle gets to => 25%.
Like all the ewar modules in the game using more than 3 ecm modules on a single target should get a diminishing effect. It doesn't....so either CCP forgot to add stacking penalty to this particular module, or that stacking penalty shouldn't be there at all for ewar modules.
I prefer the second choice
Edit: Why are the fonts small suddenly |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.26 09:14:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kirtan Loor
Like all the ewar modules in the game using more than 3 ecm modules on a single target should get a diminishing effect. It doesn't....so either CCP forgot to add stacking penalty to this particular module, or that stacking penalty shouldn't be there at all for ewar modules.
Unless they are way out of range all the other ewar systems always have a effect when activated on a target, that is why they have a stacking penalty.
ECM works or does not work on a chance based system per module relative to the targets sig str.
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Aleus Stygian
Failed Diplomacy Collidable Objects
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Posted - 2008.12.26 19:22:00 -
[59]
Originally by: NoNah Pilgrims and Rapiers can't be judged in the same manner as Arazus and Falcons, simply because both of those can quite well sneak into a system and pick of ratters, haulers and most other unaware soloers on their own. Pilgrim have no place in a fleet fight, but it is also one of the most potent soloships.
Oh, but they can. A Pilgrim has no place in a fleet fight, you say? What about when traveling with roaming gangs of five to seven ships as a heavy tackler or simply a damage-mitigating and tank-breaking 'safety measure'? In a rare few cases, the Pilgrim performs just as well in this role as the Curse, and if you want to surprise a wary battleship or battlecruiser pilot and hold him still it does even better than its sibling.
Furthermore, if the Falcon were changed so that it were more like the other Recons, meaning that it had an extra two missile or turret slots and a weapon-related bonus instead of its current insane range, and employed two ECM modules in its cookie-cutter setup instead of five or six... it might actually make an awesome solo ship. Ever think about that?
Originally by: NoNah If falcons range are reduced, they will be made into overly expensive blackbirds. The value of warping cloaked is only worth that much. If they are supposed to be inline with everyone else range they should also have similar options for tanking and dealing damage. If cycles were shorter and/or broken by cloaking, the extended damps would even if just tickling percentagewise bring them quite a bit closer. If three damps removes 75% locking range and that means the falcons now have to be 75km away that's enough to get more than very specialized ships hitting them - but you still have to fit specially for it.
Didn't I already mention shifting their stats to make them good for that? Not that it takes that much; with the right skills, you can get a good deal of mid-range survivability out of a Falcon even now. More than you can out of a Rapier. It's just that there is no reason to, because staying at 'look-at-me-I-can-shift-the-outcome-of-this-whole-battle-and-you-can't-even-lock-me'-ranges ensures a far greater chance of survival. And because the ship's capability for dealing damage approaches nonexistence (this is really the breaker, as I suspect that some people would actually be ballsy enough to use the Falcon close-in, were it capable of doing anything but jamming. And this is how you see that CCP really didn't think ahead when they changed ECM and didn't change the Falcon; the ship is naturally configured to be broken).
Also, if you want my opinion on sensor dampeners, I think that all these 5% bonuses should be upped to 10% or 15%, so that using just two damps is quite viable, freeing up a midslot, and then we'll see if it's necessary to change anything from there. _________________________________________________________
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Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.12.26 19:31:00 -
[60]
Is there a nerf group that gets together weekly/monthly? It seems like someone says this ship/module is overpowered then they start a thread. Then someone else agrees..then they start one. Then people who have never even flown/fought against ship get on eft and start a thread. Then they whine for about 7 months straight until it gets nerfed. Then months/months down the road they all usually say... hmm well I didn't mean for it to get nerfed that much..
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