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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 02:13:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 02:13:33 oops
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DubanFP
Caldari R.U.S.T.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 02:32:00 -
[2]
Edited by: DubanFP on 25/12/2008 02:32:13 Ok i'm taking bets on the OP. The odds are as follows.
2:1 Troll 4:1 Failed Joke thread 7:1 Complete newb. _______________
"It's not about the look of your ship or the size of your guns. It's about how much **** you can @#$# up with it" |
Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 02:33:00 -
[3]
Yay! Teh trollz.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.12.25 02:51:00 -
[4]
Have you flown any Caldari ships?
They're heavier and slower than armor tanking ships. When you put plates on they kinda match up.
Armor reps eat less cap.
Duplicate tackle isn't pointless when your HICtor gets jammed or neuted. Also shutting off the hostile's MWD is crucial as well.
Armor is still better at dealing with EM/Thermal damage via lasers than shields.
Armor RR gangs free up low slots for more gank.
Not sure what you're suggesting wouldn't make armor tanking OP.
Not shooting you down - just saying, that I don't want armor turned into shield tanking - it should have its own flavor in this game (passive regen would ruin that imo).
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 03:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 03:05:03
Originally by: Omarvelous Have you flown any Caldari ships?
Yes, alt is 25m SP in Caldari.
Quote: Armor reps eat less cap.
And rep far less at the END of the cycle. The horrid efficiency of armor reps "forces" the pilot to fit a plate (further forcing the issue of slow/lack of agility) because, as I mentioned, the effective "expected" HP repaired given by a local LAR is so bad.
Quote: Duplicate tackle isn't pointless when your HICtor gets jammed
...?!?
Oh, low-sec I suppose, ok.
Quote: or neuted.
This is a valid point. However, there's usually plenty of disruptors to go around, since people still do fly armor tanked ships, interceptors, etc.
Quote: Armor RR gangs free up low slots for more gank.
The only reason armor RR gangs are more common than shield RR gangs is because most battleships are armor tanked. I see scimitars taking care of the Ravens/Blokhs in small gangs, usually. Unfortunately that means that the scimitars are taking care of the armor tanked ships too. Terribly inefficient. Few people want to set foot in a Oneiros/Guardian once they've flown a Scimi. Can't blame them. Easily the best (and as a result most popular) logistics ship in the game.
I'll also point out that an RR gang has a tremendous counter: Falcons.
Quote: Not shooting you down - just saying, that I don't want armor turned into shield tanking - it should have its own flavor in this game (passive regen would ruin that imo).
I don't either.
However, active local armor reppers suck terribly. This should be addressed.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.12.25 04:24:00 -
[6]
Take a Rokh. Fit a passive buffer on it minus three midslots (say, MWD, Pt, Web),
Take a Abaddon. Do the same thing, minus two midslots for damage mods.
Which has the better buffer tank? Please tell me.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.25 04:33:00 -
[7]
I thought higher of cry havoc., really.
-----
Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.25 04:42:00 -
[8]
Yes, because solo/small-gang would much rather have a huge sig, fit a tank in their mids instead of e-war, and always have a HICtor in the same system that they can call on.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 04:42:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 04:44:40
Originally by: Kessiaan Yes, because solo/small-gang would much rather have a huge sig, fit a tank in their mids instead of e-war, and always have a HICtor in the same system that they can call on.
Uh yeah. That's how it goes. I haven't flown in a 0.0 gang without a HIC, Scimitar, or mostly shield tanked recons (Curse, Rapier/Huggin) for a long long long time.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.12.25 04:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Uh yeah. That's how it goes. I haven't flown in a 0.0 gang without a HIC, Scimitar, several shield buffered ships (Curse, Rapier/Huggin, Vaga) for a long long long time.
In a gang that big, does it even matter what you are flying? Honestly
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 04:53:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 04:55:39
Originally by: Artemis Rose In a gang that big, does it even matter what you are flying? Honestly
It does if you're the slowest one in the gang.
Or you know, if you are looking for real targets, rather than just ganking lone targets.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:02:00 -
[12]
Alos, confirming I am posting in a "My playstyle is the only playstyle, so please ignore everyone else and cater solely to me" thread.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 05:09:49
Originally by: Kessiaan Alos, confirming I am posting in a "My playstyle is the only playstyle, so please ignore everyone else and cater solely to me" thread.
Hold up. Saying that armor reps need to be made viable is disregarding others' playstyles?
K. I'm guessing you've just run out of actual arguments now.
Seems to me an ignorant assumption that simply because I want to see armor reps fixed and a heavy-handed rig drawback removed, you assume somehow that I want what YOU do screwed up.
I don't. Even made that clear.
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Dyaven
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dyaven on 25/12/2008 05:08:25
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 05:06:28
Originally by: Kessiaan Alos, confirming I am posting in a "My playstyle is the only playstyle, so please ignore everyone else and cater solely to me" thread.
Hold up. Saying that armor reps need to be made viable is disregarding others' playstyles?
K. I'm guessing you've just run out of actual arguments now.
I think Gallente have become such a small portion of the population with the Achuras that he thinks Armor tankers are a vast minority. (I think Amarr are the ones meant to Buffer, with their Resistance bonuses and the Gallentes repper amount bonuses)
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dyaven I think Gallente have become such a small portion of the population with the Achuras that he thinks Armor tankers are a vast minority. (I think Amarr are the ones meant to Buffer, with their Resistance bonuses and the Gallentes repper amount bonuses)
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. I suppose my stealth Gallente whine has been uncovered!
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv K. I'm guessing you've just run out of actual arguments now.
No, actually I'm just trolling because I'm bored. Normally I use my trolling alt for such things but it's a holiday so I'll do it on my main.
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Dyaven
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Dyaven I think Gallente have become such a small portion of the population with the Achuras that he thinks Armor tankers are a vast minority. (I think Amarr are the ones meant to Buffer, with their Resistance bonuses and the Gallentes repper amount bonuses)
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. I suppose my stealth Gallente whine has been uncovered!
Oooh, oooh, what do I win!?
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 05:23:35
Originally by: Dyaven Oooh, oooh, what do I win!?
TEH COOKEHS! :D
*hands Dyaven teh cookehs!*
Originally by: Kessiaan No, actually I'm just trolling because I'm bored. Normally I use my trolling alt for such things but it's a holiday so I'll do it on my main.
Hehehe merry xmas mate ;)
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Plated is significantly worse for speed. Then add in Trimarks.
And actually, the Raven warps warps faster than an UNPLATED Geddon or Megathron. Heh. Plates make them paralytic slugs. One of the things that changed with QR. The Raven is no longer at the bottom end of BS agility.
The hyperuion needs to fit 3 plates to align as slowly as the rokh, at which point it has almost 50% more EHP. At best, without implants and a T2 MWD, the hyperion will then pull 951m/s compared to the rokh's 783. Tack on 3 trimarks and the speed drops to 840m/s, still 57m/s faster than the rokh with the MWD active and, incidentally, 10m/s faster without the MWD active.
Now, I'll grant that the raven aligns faster than the hyperion, by a small small fraction, but it takes 3 trimarks and 2 armor plates (or 3 plates and 2 armor rigs) before the raven manages a top speed better than the hyperion.
Now, sure, speed and velocity are important, but then there's one thing to consider, especially if you buffer tank with shields or use a bunch of shield rigs...
Boost your sig. radius high enough and grandma can lock her dreadnought's guns onto you before you can warp out and hit you with them without her glasses.
The higher your sig. radius the faster you can get locked which in turn means you get shot at sooner, hit with EW sooner, hit with cap warfare sooner, and so on. 1k/s damage over 60 seconds is pretty much the same as 750 dps for 80 seconds.
Personally, it seems to me that the locking aspect of the sig. radius penalty with various shield tanking modules would have a higher priority in the "what'll get me screwed" equation than the 2-5% more damage you take from missiles or the 5-7% more hits you take from guns because they can track you more easily, even with Grandma and her cataracts behind the guns.
Personally, with buffer tanks being FotY, and for good reason, I would agree that active tanking, shield and armor, need a bit of a boost in some respects, but I really don't think that pointing at the various flaws in one and the perceived superiority of another is a good way to go about it. Nor do I cotton well to pointing out the flaws in passive/buffer tanking when trying to get a boost to active tanking since active modules don't have the same penalties as buffer/HP modules. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 05:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shereza The hyperuion needs to fit 3 plates to align as slowly as the rokh, at which point it has almost 50% more EHP. At best, without implants and a T2 MWD, the hyperion will then pull 951m/s compared to the rokh's 783. Tack on 3 trimarks and the speed drops to 840m/s, still 57m/s faster than the rokh with the MWD active and, incidentally, 10m/s faster without the MWD active.
And the Rokh was designed as a sniper ship.
I hardly think the speed and agility of a dedicated knife fighter should be compared to a dedicated sniper simply because the metagame dictates that range is more important than damage.
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PsychoBones
Project Nemesis
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Posted - 2008.12.25 07:53:00 -
[21]
There's nothing wrong with Armor tanking. I've been doing it since 2006 and prefer it to shield tanking by a wide margin.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 07:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: PsychoBones There's nothing wrong with Armor tanking. I've been doing it since 2006 and prefer it to shield tanking by a wide margin.
Yeah... someone in my alliance was telling me that too.
At the same time, someone was saying that they would never fly a ship without a shield tank.
Depends on the mindset, tbh.
And my mindset is this: The changes ****ed blaster ships.
That's really what this thread is about, as if it wasn't obvious anyway.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.25 08:04:00 -
[23]
Edited by: techzer0 on 25/12/2008 08:05:52
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
I don't give a **** about soloing, and very few ships in this game are worth attempting to solo in anyway. In most cases, I think "cheap" is becoming the qualifier for a solo ship as opposed to "dps" or "tank".
That's where your problem comes in. And armor rigged ships can stay slow, I don't care about how fast they are.
And yes, I fly armor rigged/plated ships. There is nothing wrong with them other than they fall in the the Buffer or GTFO tank style that has come around for all gang fights and ship setups (yay for doomsdays instapopping 100+mil T2 ships starting this trend)
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv And my mindset is this: The changes ****ed blaster ships.
That's really what this thread is about, as if it wasn't obvious anyway.
I'll give you that... My Mega/Hype and my Huginn cry for better webs. ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 08:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dyaven Edited by: Dyaven on 25/12/2008 05:08:25
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 05:06:28
Originally by: Kessiaan Alos, confirming I am posting in a "My playstyle is the only playstyle, so please ignore everyone else and cater solely to me" thread.
Hold up. Saying that armor reps need to be made viable is disregarding others' playstyles?
K. I'm guessing you've just run out of actual arguments now.
I think Gallente have become such a small portion of the population with the Achuras that he thinks Armor tankers are a vast minority. (I think Amarr are the ones meant to Buffer, with their Resistance bonuses and the Gallentes repper amount bonuses)
Thats a bit of a non-argument, Gallente get a whole 2 ships with rep bonus. Even then the time to catch up to a plate with reps is in the order of minutes.
Even devs mentioned @ the fanfest that theyre looking into it.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 09:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 09:15:37
Originally by: Max Hardcase Thats a bit of a non-argument, Gallente get a whole 2 ships with rep bonus. Even then the time to catch up to a plate with reps is in the order of minutes.
Even devs mentioned @ the fanfest that theyre looking into it.
3? Brutix, Myrm, Hyp...
They said they're looking at it? Thank goodness. Any links to writeups/vids?
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.25 09:33:00 -
[26]
Armor tanking is just fine and the penalty is not that big in my opinion. Shield tanking is bad because you lose the ability to tackle and use ewar. That is why Drakes are considered one of the worst pvp ships in the game. I could go on and on, but when you factor in everything that has been said so far my vote is to not touch Armor tanking.
There is a lot of things that need to be rebalanced and this is not one of them.
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Xori Ruscuv
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.25 09:42:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 09:45:49
Originally by: Solid Prefekt Armor tanking is just fine and the penalty is not that big in my opinion. Shield tanking is bad because you lose the ability to tackle
Not an issue. Already discussed. I fit scram on my shield tanks (alt), as do people I fly with (Raven, Drake, Blokh) with shield tanks... just fine.
Quote: and use ewar.
Unbonused ewar sucks anyway.
Quote: That is why Drakes are considered one of the worst pvp ships in the game.
LOL. I call shenanigans. Anyone who thinks Drake is the worst PVP ship in the game needs to fly one, get their head examined and/or spend time time with EFT.
Next?
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.25 09:55:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 25/12/2008 09:55:32
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Not an issue. Already discussed. I fit scram on my shield tanks (alt), as do people I fly
And do you fit an MWD or AB? How about a web? An armor tank can have a nice tank and fit a scram/point/mwd, a shield tanker can't. That is a fact and nothing you have said proves otherwise. That you 'discussed' it does not make your points correct or valid.
You have not proved your case and many of your points are flawed. That you think a HIC is enough 'tackle' is laughable. It is painfully obvious where your head is stuck so to argue you is a waste. You have already convinced yourself that armor tanking is weak. Problem is most people will disagree with you (as you can see from the replies).
Keep whining though, it gives us good laughs.
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Xori Ruscuv
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Posted - 2008.12.25 09:58:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 25/12/2008 10:01:48
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
You have not proved your case and many of your points are flawed. That you think a HIC is enough 'tackle' is laughable. It is painfully obvious where your head is stuck so to argue you is a waste. You have already convinced yourself that armor tanking is weak. Problem is most people will disagree with you (as you can see from the replies).
Keep whining though, it gives us good laughs.
They/you don't have to agree. The only people who post here are ones that are too butt-hurt about not being able to figure out how to fly Caldari ships in PVP... or are too busy ****ing around with the "solo" concept.
Apparently, the devs see an issue. I'll await a fix. My point here wasn't to convince the ignorant of the viability of shield tanking. It was to make sure a voice was heard. Apparently it already was.
Good night, alt-boi! Edit: oh, looks like you're not an alt after all. Oh well.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.25 10:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 25/12/2008 09:55:32
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Not an issue. Already discussed. I fit scram on my shield tanks (alt), as do people I fly
And do you fit an MWD or AB? How about a web? An armor tank can have a nice tank and fit a scram/point/mwd, a shield tanker can't. That is a fact and nothing you have said proves otherwise. That you 'discussed' it does not make your points correct or valid.
You have not proved your case and many of your points are flawed. That you think a HIC is enough 'tackle' is laughable. It is painfully obvious where your head is stuck so to argue you is a waste. You have already convinced yourself that armor tanking is weak. Problem is most people will disagree with you (as you can see from the replies).
Keep whining though, it gives us good laughs.
I fly minmatar and fit MWD/Point/Web on most of my ships, heck I don't even need a web 90% of the time due to AC's awesome tracking, missiles don't exactly need one either.
I can't agree that armor tanking is weak like the OP seems to think, but I do agree that only buffer tanking ships is flawed (and i blame titans) and that blaster ships are receiving the short end of the stick with the Web/Scram changes in the last patch making thier MWD's useless and their webs less effective. Basically flying blaster boats solo is suicide (not that it wasn't before, but it wasn't nearly as bad). Although the OP said solo didn't matter to him, it affects gang and fleet warfare also, since an arazu can make a Mega's 1000+ DPS useless with 1 scrambler, since the Mega can't MWD...
And I'm rambling so meh ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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